Tokkosho
Well-Known Member
I've stated my reasons. If all u guys want is damage do rising 4T and then do the right follow up. All guaranteed and you get a good amount ( I think around 100 on HCT, haven't checked in awhile) which is reason enuff.
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Is reading not fundamental?
64T is +10, it guarantees jab jab which puts you in a stun. A 50/50 now begins, you guess wrong you lose over a quarter of life (107 pts dmg to 130 pts of dmg with no wall). You guess right you may or may not get anything depending on what Pai does. 66H+K you get nothing.
46T is +13 6P and 3P+K is guaranteed. Against a wall 3P+K is a wall splat and Pai juggles you free into the wall. Mid floor 6P stuns putting her at +3 allowing her to keep up pressure in the stun game.
3H+P is +10 and jab jab is guaranteed this forces the same 50/50 scenario as 64T.
33H+P is +50 and P+K is guarantee this causes a sit down stun which guarantees a launcher.
Both of her throws on a BT opponent (standing or crouching) put her at +18 which guarantees her 16i launcher.
24T is +35 ( I am unsure on this one I can't remember if its +33 or +35) either way it guarantees 66H+K or P+K which puts you back into a sit down stun that guarantees launchers. The damage coming from this throw is 75 or 81 pts of dmg on normal throw. It's 107 to 130 pts of damage on HCT with no wall involved.
If her throws do not guarantee a juggle follow up then they guarantee hits that extend the stun. The throws themselves are not strong in damage but they are strong in their effect and what they guarantee.
64T is +10, it guarantees jab jab which puts you in a stun. A 50/50 now begins, you guess wrong you lose over a quarter of life (107 pts dmg to 130 pts of dmg with no wall). You guess right you may or may not get anything depending on what Pai does. 66H+K you get nothing.
46T is +13 6P and 3P+K is guaranteed. Against a wall 3P+K is a wall splat and Pai juggles you free into the wall. Mid floor 6P stuns putting her at +3 allowing her to keep up pressure in the stun game.
3H+P is +10 and jab jab is guaranteed this forces the same 50/50 scenario as 64T.
33H+P is +50 and P+K is guarantee this causes a sit down stun which guarantees a launcher.
Both of her throws on a BT opponent (standing or crouching) put her at +18 which guarantees her 16i launcher.
24T is +35 ( I am unsure on this one I can't remember if its +33 or +35) either way it guarantees 66H+K or P+K which puts you back into a sit down stun that guarantees launchers. The damage coming from this throw is 75 or 81 pts of dmg on normal throw. It's 107 to 130 pts of damage on HCT with no wall involved.
It's because they think tiers are based off opinions when it's really not. Who you use & who you "think" is good is based on personal opinion. Rather or not you can "beat" people with that certain character, that depends on how good the player is.
Not talking to you, Something-Unique, but this is for people who thinks this is "just all opinions"
What people don't realize is that you're not giving out opinions on why the matchups are the way they are. It's all based on facts. Like people are downplaying Pai because of the things they think see "on paper". Pai has so many things that's guaranteed, but yet all you hear is the same thing over & over: "Pai's damage is weak". That's stuff that's on paper. If she's played right, then people would see that she racks up the damage with the things that she has to help her. But people ain't looking at what all she has. Other characters get downplayed like that too. Like Kasumi gets downplayed because she's unsafe & they she has a low damage output, but not looking at everything that she has. Same goes for Tina. etc.. It's still like this: Looking at what's wrote down & not seeing everything they have to their disposal. You have to see them at full potential against others.
But my point is just because you've beaten somebody with a certain character, it don't mean that the character is good. That's the player making good adjustments to beat that character. While people do that, when discussing match ups & tiers etc, this is based off what characters can "actually" do against each other if they're played right & what people as players have to do in order to win with their characters. So therefore, facts are key. Not what you think or feel is.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
She's + elevendy billion on like 2 of them. It's good if you don't hold or SE I guess. When Pai lands a hold or throw all I can do is feel bad for the player when his risk turns to my advantage.
Example of a good throw.
Dat life bar
Example of a bad throw
DAT frame advantage
See the difference?
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
You can't SE any of the advantage from Pai's throws. So I do not know where you are getting that information from. You are not playing against any good Pai players for you to say that their risk turns into your advantage. That's the dumbest shit I have ever heard seeing that Pai is at +10 to +50 on her throws guaranteeing hits or launchers.
Both her High and Mid kick Holds are guaranteeing her launchers. Her low kick hold guarantees at hit. With these 4 holds how does Pai's risk turn into your advantage, again? Pais' Mid Punch hold puts her at +18 and you remain in stun but you can hold from that, so that's a 50/50 and her Low Punch hold puts her at +4 which starts another 50/50. I don't know what Pai players you are playing against that are allowing you to take advantage of these situations but I can assure you that they are not good players.
Tina is also a fucking grappler, genius. Her throws should outshine a strikers throws. Plus that was on an electric floor.
Pai was +18 from that BT throw and she was guaranteed a launcher from it. That Pai player obviously does not know that seeing as they backed off immediately after performing the throw. This is also how I know you are not playing against good Pai players nor do you know anything yourself on the character going by everything you have been saying about Pai over the past several days.
This is also getting annoying. How much does someone have to explain and break down shit for people to understand things. This stuff isn't hard, I mean, we are playing DOA.
Murakame
Active Member
It only needs to be once AP. But unfortunately people have a habit of ignoring posts on these forums. Especially when they have been posted more than once smh.
Here's whats relevant to the discussion at hand for those of you who missed the first post:
"Pretty much all of her (Pai) throws guarantee a launcher. But the father and mother of all of them is 33h+p this puts Pai at +50 and you can't SE the frame advantage. Her 24h+P guarantees a juggle every time you're caught in it. The scary part about this throw is that you can't read when it's coming because it can be buffer into her moves that put her in the crouching position. Which is damn near everything. If you're a light weight you lose at least 122 on HCT and 107 for mid weights. "
Everything else should be on this same page.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
If I can hold or SE out of any of your set ups and I'm succesful then all the risk you took to hold or throw is pointless. Yeah she has some guaranteed stuff from specific hold or throw, but overall she does not. She countinues the guessing game in places where she shouldn't and most others do not. This is never good.
A grapper has what I would consider good, I couldn't find her JOS throw for a better example. It's a matter of putting things into perspective when people match up tools with characters.
Guess your way outta what? lol The launch is guaranteed after her throws! So how are gonna guess something when you can't do nothing about it? If so I wanna see because I've played 4 different good Pais & everyone of em would take advantage of throw that guaranteed a launcher.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Once again, that is not the case if you read what AP said correctly. She does play the guessing game on a lot of her holds and throws. She has some guaranteed set ups, but you can SE and hold out of others. Overall this isn't a character with good throws or holds.
I've played against some really great Pais and have gotten my way out of various holds and stuns. This should not be happening at all.
& Once again, It's not about how good her throws or hold are. It's what she gets after them. If she gets the goods after them, then it shouldn't matter how good the throws or holds are. & thats the basic thing of DOA is guessing & triangular system. Anybody could guess outta something. But not if its guaranteed. Nobody is guessing their way out of a guaranteed anything. This is a straight fact.
Murakame
Active Member
I'm no Pai player but allow me to attempt to explain to you why her throws are not bad. Actual Pai players please correct me if I am wrong.
My assumption is that 24T is her preferred throw on standing opponents. 12 frame execution and +35. AP explains the options Pai has after this; read his post.
33T is +50 on crouching opponents and is 10 frame execution. Again AP explains what the options are in his post.
I'm guessing 46T is her go to wall throw since midscreen, 24T seems like a superior option. Pai uses this throw at the wall and gets her guaranteed 3P+K for a wall splat and combo.
64T seems like it would only be used when you don't have 24T ready. I don't know how often situations like that pop up because I don't play Pai.
So no she does not play the guessing game on alot of her throws. She plays it on one throw and even then check out this key point: YOU ARE IN STUN after the throw. This means you have to deal with whatever unholdable options she has and lets not forget if you guess wrong you could be getting 24T'd, 46T'd or 33T'd for guaranteed damage. Guaranteed HI COUNTER damage that's alot better than other strikers.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
, Show me a video of you guessing out of this throw.
, Show me a video of you guessing out of this throw.
, (Next to a wall)Show me a video of you guessing out of this throw.
BT Standing or Crouching
, Show me a video of you guessing out of this throw.
, Show me a video of you guessing out of this throw.
, Show me a video of you guessing out of this throw.
( or ), Show me a video of you guessing out of this hold.
(), Show me a video of you guessing out of this hold.
(), Show me a video of you guessing out of this hold.
These are 11 different situations dealing with her throws and holds where you cannot guess out of. The situations where you are being hit causes a stun, which is a 50/50. Pai's 50/50s are very annoying because you as a defender may not get anything for guessing right and Pai gets everything and then some for guessing right. Granted it is a 50/50, but even if your guessing is on point that day, she has plenty of other guaranteed situations (stuns that lead to launchers) that you cannot hold from.
If you are playing against these "great" Pai players you'll rarely be given the chance to guess out anything. If for what ever reason you still can't compute the information that is being given to you. I will offer it to you again, you are more than welcome to come play against me. We'll see how much you guess out of guaranteed shit.
Edit: Like MasterHavik and discussing Zack Vs Eliot 5-5 match up. I am done discussing Pai with you. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and I can't entertain your stupid-ass statements on the character anymore; it has gone on long enough. However, my challenge still stands on the table for you.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
I fixed the one for the low hold. Playing online and people getting out stuff all day I just stick to what works every time. She does get 66H+K from both her high holds. The kick one you need to dash first but she gets it.
