DR2K
Well-Known Member
You couldn't tell by all these buffs, but she was.
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
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You couldn't tell by all these buffs, but she was.
synce
Well-Known Member
I'll only comment on the characters I use:
Alpha:
Gained limbo stun but nerfs to overall throw game and possibly even safety. 2kkk was changed but may still be 2-in-1... She's either high tier or bottom, will know in a week.
Kokoro:
Small nerfs to damage, nerf to BT stun, nerf to 66P. 2H+K is still weak sauce but they buffed 6P+K, which doesn't crush. Mid-high tier?
Lisa:
Hueg buffs to her mixup game and guaranteed damage situations. You're going to be seeing more Lisa's online. High tier material.
Mila:
Big nerfs to TD, 4K leading into it, and potentially 1P coming out of it. If that's the case no way she's still high tier. Mid, mid-high.
Pai:
Big nerfs to her BnB move and ender 66H+K. However she also has a new sitdown that leads into a new CB, may or may not be guaranteed. Either way if you play Pai you need to relearn her. May still be high tier, tough to tell.
Alpha:
Gained limbo stun but nerfs to overall throw game and possibly even safety. 2kkk was changed but may still be 2-in-1... She's either high tier or bottom, will know in a week.
Kokoro:
Small nerfs to damage, nerf to BT stun, nerf to 66P. 2H+K is still weak sauce but they buffed 6P+K, which doesn't crush. Mid-high tier?
Lisa:
Hueg buffs to her mixup game and guaranteed damage situations. You're going to be seeing more Lisa's online. High tier material.
Mila:
Big nerfs to TD, 4K leading into it, and potentially 1P coming out of it. If that's the case no way she's still high tier. Mid, mid-high.
Pai:
Big nerfs to her BnB move and ender 66H+K. However she also has a new sitdown that leads into a new CB, may or may not be guaranteed. Either way if you play Pai you need to relearn her. May still be high tier, tough to tell.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
I really don't get why they nerfed Mila & Kokoro while keeping Jann Lee pretty much the same.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Jann Lee lost one unholdable stun 1P(K) which now behaves like 6F+K which I don't think is unholdable. Kokoro barely got nerfed from what I read, the nerf list is long but each nerf is pretty slight, unless I missed something.
Lei Fang is still extremely strong, all the current top tiers are still very much intact. Unless the low tiers move up by the weight of their own buff's then I think top tier will not change.
Murakame
Active Member
He's right. Kokoro did not get a damage nerf. Maybe on that one combo you guys like to use with 4 9Ps in a row but that's it. Small damage nerf to her launchers isn't going to kill her damage output on other combos when the new life is 270. At the very least, just like with Jann Lee, their damage output may be unaffected.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Well, damage is not what I was referring to. There's one main nerf to Kokoro. 66P is now unsafe, and that's pretty much her bread and butter move, always has been. There are ways around it though. Now that her grabs are slower, sidestepping opponents are gonna be even harder to deal with. ALL her circulars are high and she only has two of them, which is a huge disadvantage.
But overall, it is a very small nerf. I can agree with that. I think the main reason they slowed her grabs down after things like 2K and BT 4P, is because they would whiff if the prior move connects, but now, we'll have to see how it works in practice.. Most of the moves that became unsafer (like 33P) have follow-ups so they won't hurt her too much. Although I kind of get the feeling that someone like Kasumi could just interrupt the follow-ups, but we'll see. The biggest nerf is the 66P one. Then again, 6P+K now stunning is a buff, but it's not really a move that can be used as freely as 66P, especially since it can be held in two ways.
Kokoro's tier placement will probably remain the same as before, although I think that's lower than people have made her out to be. I also do agree that the top ones have remained pretty much the same. I'd argue that Leifang even received a slight buff. Jann Lee is... Well, Jann Lee. I'm glad they nerfed his sidestep P. It was definitely necessary. Gen Fu was pretty much untouched. Hayate, Hitomi, Christie & Lisa are definitely moving up in tier. Pai is probably moving down.. The rest, not sure yet.
But overall, it is a very small nerf. I can agree with that. I think the main reason they slowed her grabs down after things like 2K and BT 4P, is because they would whiff if the prior move connects, but now, we'll have to see how it works in practice.. Most of the moves that became unsafer (like 33P) have follow-ups so they won't hurt her too much. Although I kind of get the feeling that someone like Kasumi could just interrupt the follow-ups, but we'll see. The biggest nerf is the 66P one. Then again, 6P+K now stunning is a buff, but it's not really a move that can be used as freely as 66P, especially since it can be held in two ways.
Kokoro's tier placement will probably remain the same as before, although I think that's lower than people have made her out to be. I also do agree that the top ones have remained pretty much the same. I'd argue that Leifang even received a slight buff. Jann Lee is... Well, Jann Lee. I'm glad they nerfed his sidestep P. It was definitely necessary. Gen Fu was pretty much untouched. Hayate, Hitomi, Christie & Lisa are definitely moving up in tier. Pai is probably moving down.. The rest, not sure yet.
I don't see how a moves safety decides if a character can interrupt the follow-ups. The disadvantage from the attack isn't applied until the input window for the next attack has passed. So while you delay the string you are both at 0 frames.
The deciding factor on if a string is interruptable is the recovery frames of the guarded attack since those are the frames the opponent is in guard/hit stun.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
That kind of depends on how they implemented the change. They could do it by shortening the opponent's guard stun, or lengthening the amount of recovery frames of the user. In the first case, it can have an influence on whether the follow-up can be interrupted or not. In the second case, there is no influence.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
No, she wasn't.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
DR2K's opinion of Helena changes as often as a hookers panties go up and down, no one thinks Helena is THAT good except him.
Best character in the game, that's fucking hilarious!
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure you understood what I meant. Let me try and clarify. When you block something, you're put in a guard stun, and that's the guard stun that I meant. Just so we're on the same page... Taken from DOA terminology
Guard Stun: Period of time after one blocks an incoming attack during which he can not move. Normally your guard stun will end before the attacker is still in recovery.
Recovery: The brief period of time after you perform an attack, or after you get hit by an attack, during which you cannot move.
Speaking of which, the guard stun definition is kind of ambiguous here, and the word 'before' should probably be changed to 'while'. The explanation here makes more sense:
Guard Stun
Ever wonder why you can not attack mid string when guarding,(majority of the time) while your opponent is attacking you? This is due to guard stun. Guard stun is the phase of a guard in which you cannot move or initiate any attacks Until the guard animation comes to an end. The amount of guard stun is dependent soley on the attack(string) used. This is why you usually cannot attack out of Kasumi's
Strings. However, during single blows and the end of a string, the majority of the time, the guard stunned player recover before their opponent recover from their attack. This results in the advantage for the defending player during this time.In any case...
Depending on whether the guard stun is longer or shorter than the attacker's recovery, you'll be at an advantage or a disadvantage. If you wish to change the (dis)advantage of a move, you have to change the difference between the guard stun (defender) and the recovery (attacker). In Kokoro's case, 33P used to be -10 on block, and will be -14 on block. To achieve this, you can change the guard stun of the defending player by making it 4 frames shorter, OR add 4 recovery frames to the attack of the attacking player (which you just called the guard stun, but I call recovery) to get the same desired effect. You could even change both, by making the guard stun 2 frames shorter AND making the recovery 2 frames longer for example. Any combination in between also works, say lowering the guard stun by 1 and adding 3 recovery frames, lowering the guard stun by 3 and adding 1 recovery frame and so on. As long as the difference is increased by 4 frames, you'll have a move that will be -14 instead of -10.
So, if you shorten the guard stun of the defending player, you can make a move unsafer while keeping the properties of the attack itself exactly the same. That means that the execution, active and recovery frames stay exactly the same, but the effect it has on the opponent's guard has changed. This also has an influence on how soon the defending player can start attacking, since he's stunned for a shorter time, and therefore it can have an influence on interrupting the follow-up.
Let me try and use numbers. We know Kokoro's 33P has 18 startup frames. I don't know the amount of active or recovery frames, so, I'll just make it up. Don't worry, it doesn't influence the point or validity. Let's say the move is 18(2)40. This makes the move have 60 frames total. Now let's assume the defender is blocking, and that the move hits the opponent's block on the 1st active frame which is the 19th frame. That's where the guard stun begins. Since the move is currently -10, we know that the guard stun of the defender ends 10 frames before the recovery of the attacker. This means, that the guard stun starts on the 19th frame, and ends on the 50th frame, making the guard stun last for 32 frames. If you want to make the move -14, you could simply shorten the guard stun and make it 28 frames while keeping the move properties the same, which are 18(2)40.
If you increase the recovery frames, you are changing the properties of the attack itself, while keeping the guard stun (which is the stun the defender forced into when he blocked the attack,) the same. Since the guard stun is the same, the defender can not interrupt sooner, and thus there's no influence..
This is a lot easier to explain in numbers. You keep the guard stun explained above at 32 frames, and just make the move 18(2)44.
Sorry if this was offtopic.... But I don't know which approach TN takes/took when giving more disadvantage to some of Kokoro's moves. If they changed the guard stun effect, she could possibly be interrupted by fast moves. If they took the second approach, it definitely makes no difference to her follow-ups. Just wanted to make sure people understood what I was talking about.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Hookers don't wear panties. Logic fail.
You are incorrect. When you perform an attack you go through the initial frames, active frames, recovery frames, then theh +/- disadvantage occurs.
So if you have Kokoro do a string that has a string extension the time frame looks like this:
string starter's initial frames, first active frame, second string attack's initial frames, active frames, recovery frames, +/- disadvantage
in that case, the time between the first attack's second active frame and the first attack's last recovery frame is the time the opponent is stuck in block stun. The opponent's responding attack to interrupt won't happen until the amount of recovery frames on that first attack has expired.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
So far so good
Uh no... The block stun like you call it, is independent of the recovery frames of the first attack. For example, Leifang's 3P4P can easily be interrupted by Kasumi's P, and her 3P2K can also easily be interrupted by Kasumi's mid P, without any delay of the string. If the block stun is the same as the recovery of 3P, that couldn't possibly happen.
What you describe is a move that's +0, and that's not the case here. The block stun does not equal the recovery of the first attack. The block stun is a set amount of frames that never changes, and that amount of frames, compared to the amount of recovery frames, is what determines if an attack is at an advantage or not. That's why sometimes when moves hit from far away, their properties change. By hitting on a second active frame, and the block stun staying the same, a move that's -6 could become -5, on a third active frame -6 becomes -4 and so on.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
I'm just going to copy synce and comment on the chars I use.
Akira: A buffed and faster SS P and improved SS K on top of sidesteps being better in general and a new SS move on top of already having one of the best in the game. His best BT option now being an 11 frame mid, a little more tracking, increased juggle potential on his 6KP and increased damage on all of his combo finishers on top of everyone's health being nerfed. Simply put, he already hit like a truck, now he hits like a train. I put him at the bottom of High tier before, now I might put him in the solid middle of it.
Hayate: Guard breaks become useful and he gets a new one, new strike cancels into wind dash for better combo-ability and mixup potential, wind dash K going back to DOA4 4F+K status. Some new sitdown stuns which will help him tremendously, 236K becomes useful again and he gets the Raijin back. He's still quite unsafe but he's got some ways around it now and is a good bit more scary when he hits you. I always said he was bottom tier, now I might put him in mid tier.
Hitomi: Improved damage and more tracking, which she was in desperate need of. Her finisher to strings like PP6PK potentially being un-holdable on top of -1 on block, her best gap closer not only being safe but advantage now and a bit more safety to boot. She improved a great deal. I'd still put her in mid tier however, she just might be a bit higher.
Eliot: Even more unsafe, a new sit-down stun from a move no one uses, safety on a move no one uses, and a bit more damage on a few moves. Still low tier in my opinion, in fact with all the buffs everyone else got, I might move him down a bit more in that particular tier.
Rig: i10 jab, i13 mid punch, more safety, buffed sidestep and insane stance buffs, particularly his new natural 2KK in F.Stance, 12 more points of damage and +10 off his stance grab and the new CB in stance. Always thought this guy was slept on and high tier, now I definitely think he is.
Akira: A buffed and faster SS P and improved SS K on top of sidesteps being better in general and a new SS move on top of already having one of the best in the game. His best BT option now being an 11 frame mid, a little more tracking, increased juggle potential on his 6KP and increased damage on all of his combo finishers on top of everyone's health being nerfed. Simply put, he already hit like a truck, now he hits like a train. I put him at the bottom of High tier before, now I might put him in the solid middle of it.
Hayate: Guard breaks become useful and he gets a new one, new strike cancels into wind dash for better combo-ability and mixup potential, wind dash K going back to DOA4 4F+K status. Some new sitdown stuns which will help him tremendously, 236K becomes useful again and he gets the Raijin back. He's still quite unsafe but he's got some ways around it now and is a good bit more scary when he hits you. I always said he was bottom tier, now I might put him in mid tier.
Hitomi: Improved damage and more tracking, which she was in desperate need of. Her finisher to strings like PP6PK potentially being un-holdable on top of -1 on block, her best gap closer not only being safe but advantage now and a bit more safety to boot. She improved a great deal. I'd still put her in mid tier however, she just might be a bit higher.
Eliot: Even more unsafe, a new sit-down stun from a move no one uses, safety on a move no one uses, and a bit more damage on a few moves. Still low tier in my opinion, in fact with all the buffs everyone else got, I might move him down a bit more in that particular tier.
Rig: i10 jab, i13 mid punch, more safety, buffed sidestep and insane stance buffs, particularly his new natural 2KK in F.Stance, 12 more points of damage and +10 off his stance grab and the new CB in stance. Always thought this guy was slept on and high tier, now I definitely think he is.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Helena: Almost the exact same.
Some useless strings became safe to non grappler's (-5), with the exception of 66P which she really needs to get in so that buff is appreciated.
Sit down stuns are still useless ranging from +13 to +15 at best.
CB attack from BKO is nice but it doesn't really make her any better unlike Rig's.
Damage nerf to lows at tip range makes little to no difference.
Her low game is much less threatening now low blocking has been sped up.
Lastly her ability to avoid wake up kicks is still good but not such a big deal now that they don't stun on NH.
She didn't gain any new tools to help with her weak match ups and the characters she struggles with were not nerfed in any way that will help her out. Finally the tweaks to the system mechanics will mean she will have to work harder to open the opponent up.
She is still a solid stun based character but with no buff's to her sit down stuns she is still incapable of avoiding playing the guessing game for the whole match.
With no real buff's and other characters buff's and system tweaks her place on the tier list will drop, it's inevitable.
Some useless strings became safe to non grappler's (-5), with the exception of 66P which she really needs to get in so that buff is appreciated.
Sit down stuns are still useless ranging from +13 to +15 at best.
CB attack from BKO is nice but it doesn't really make her any better unlike Rig's.
Damage nerf to lows at tip range makes little to no difference.
Her low game is much less threatening now low blocking has been sped up.
Lastly her ability to avoid wake up kicks is still good but not such a big deal now that they don't stun on NH.
She didn't gain any new tools to help with her weak match ups and the characters she struggles with were not nerfed in any way that will help her out. Finally the tweaks to the system mechanics will mean she will have to work harder to open the opponent up.
She is still a solid stun based character but with no buff's to her sit down stuns she is still incapable of avoiding playing the guessing game for the whole match.
With no real buff's and other characters buff's and system tweaks her place on the tier list will drop, it's inevitable.
synce
Well-Known Member
I'm looking at the Japanese 1.03 changelog and I'm noticing inconsistencies with the English one when it comes to stun terminology.
Example: 腹よろけtranslates to something like belly stagger. In the English changelog this is translated to anything from belly crumple to limbo stun. I believe it's actually just the stun where a character grabs his stomach and falls unless they counter.
As far as I can tell the only character getting an actual limbo stun (のけぞり崩れよろけ) is Lisa, and it's not on NH like the English log says, it's only on CH and HCH. It doesn't look like Ryu, Alpha, etc. are getting those new limbo stuns.
I haven't looked over the whole list yet, just some characters I'm interested in. But don't be surprised if something's a little different from what the patch notes say
Example: 腹よろけtranslates to something like belly stagger. In the English changelog this is translated to anything from belly crumple to limbo stun. I believe it's actually just the stun where a character grabs his stomach and falls unless they counter.
As far as I can tell the only character getting an actual limbo stun (のけぞり崩れよろけ) is Lisa, and it's not on NH like the English log says, it's only on CH and HCH. It doesn't look like Ryu, Alpha, etc. are getting those new limbo stuns.
I haven't looked over the whole list yet, just some characters I'm interested in. But don't be surprised if something's a little different from what the patch notes say