What would you change about DOA?

OK. I thought you meant that you want stance options to be immediately available, i.e. stance transition to be instant. Jann Lee has at least two ways to get into Dragon stance directly.
Perhaps I'm not stating this cleary enough. I want to press a button or a button + direction, to perform a stance transition without having to perform an attack, or a special type of maneuver, prior to the transition. In the same vein as 6P+K with Hayate causes him to transition into WD.

1P+K with Jann Lee causes him to transition into a special maneuver which can(can) then be 'cancelled' into his DS attacks. 1P+K alone does not cause Jann Lee to begin his DS transition.
 

dawnbringer

Active Member
1P+K with Jann Lee causes him to transition into a special maneuver which can(can) then be 'cancelled' into his DS attacks. 1P+K alone does not cause Jann Lee to begin his DS transition.

The state that can be cancelled into stance attacks is called Dragon Stance.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
This whole argument doesn't even make sense. Dragon "stance" isn't a stance, it's a transition/cancel. A stance has many options and you can move back and forth during. If that's what you're asking for then they'd have to give his movelist the Helena treatment :)

Ding ding ding, someone got it.

It is what it is OldsmoBuick. You are trying to use it in a way it was never designed to be used which is why I say you are playing him incorrectly. DS wasn't designed to be a tool that is good at neutral, it's just a flashy mix up that gives him a quick way to keep the stun going.
 

MajesticBlue

Active Member
I really don't think you need to be able to move for something to qualify as a stance. A stance is pretty much anything that puts you in a state where you have more or different options I would think. Like Lars has SE, a stance he has no way to enter without a transition. It is still a stance since it put him in SE state. Some stances are just very limited or have very little application.

Jann Lee doesn't seem to need manual Dragon Stance though. At least from what I see.While it would be good and make him better by giving him more options. From a balancing aspect does he need it?
 

Zeo

Well-Known Member
Give everyone else guaranteed situations, better damage, more frame advantage on block and more overall tools. Then MAYBE, we can talk about buffing Jann Lee a LITTLE bit.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Give everyone else guaranteed situations, better damage, more frame advantage on block and more overall tools. Then MAYBE, we can talk about buffing Jann Lee a LITTLE bit.

He doesn't need to be buffed at all. As much as I would LOVE for 6pk to be +1 again, Jann Lee currently is pretty much one of the most solid characters in the game. So ya, he's fine where he is at. He doesn't need to be able to go into DS from neutral. It's a transitional stance, its intent was to be used in that manner.
 

Kritoth

New Member
After thinking about deeply, and playing the game, here's my detailed list of changes i'd like to see in DOA6. Sorry for the wall of text. The idea is to balance out offense and defense so that both are equally able to mount a comeback. Any suggestions to refine the following ideas are welcome. I am not so much concerned about the technical aspects as I am not as well versed in them as a lot of you are.

1. Give all characters parries , in order to redirect offensive players. Parries would do no damage but would put the parrying player in an advantageous position to counter attack afterwards thus allowing them to turn the tables.

+Parries would replace Defensive holds as a player’s primary strike defense.
+If a parrying player whiffs the attack after a parry, the attacker can still punish with a counter attack but is at an advantage due to recovery frames of the opponents attack and receives guaranteed damage.

2. Remove DH’s all together. They serve the same purpose as parries, save for rewarding damage, and are therefore redundant.
+Offensive holds would remain and perform the same as parries do for defense, opening the opponent up for damage before they strike. (Akin to grabbing someone’s collar before punching him.)

3. ‘Stun strings’ with a maximum of four hits total, including one deep stun, (whether it’s a sit down stun, pop up stun, or critical stun) and normal hits without stun properties. This string would be free cancelable to allow for mind games.
The deep stun would begin at the start of the string and only be escapable/parried near the end of the string. The stun attack would still do damage.

4. Personally, and several tournament players may disagree with this, I say it’s time for juggles to say goodbye in fighting games. I’ve never liked them and even though I use them and have adapted to them the best I can they are unnecessary with all the other options one has for damage and punishment.

launchers on the other hand are great if used as get away tactics for players. These would knockback players, lifting them off the ground slightly (As if punched by a really tall really strong man.) and open them up for critical stuns without the cheesy slow anti-gravity ‘floating’ we are all too familiar with.

(launcher properties) Standing/while rising
+They guard break
+crush’s highs.
+Leads to ‘Stun String’ follow-up
Crouching/While crouching
+crush’s mid attacks
+Leads to ‘Stun String’ follow-up

5. The guards themselves are fine: however, the necessity to crouch and guard to block all lows is unwarranted. How many martial arts movies have characters lift their front leg to block with their shin or bottom of the foot?


Standing Low Guard
Animation (The character lifts his/her leg and blocks the incoming attack with foot or shin.)
+These would only block standing low attacks. Such as; low hook kicks, kicks to the knee, kicks to the shin, etc…
+Would not block sliding low kicks.


Current Low Guard
Animation (remains as it is.)
+Blocks low sweeping kicks and punches,
+Unable to block any low throws or low offensive holds, as the other player would be in a semi-crouched state while performing the tech.
+Blocks descending attacks e.g. Axe Kicks, double hammer fists, etc…
+Blocks sliding kicks.


6. Throws are useful for large amounts of damage: used to punish whiffed attacks, holds, and parries. They are also used to begin an offense or to close out a long attack string. These are the standard of all 3D fighting games. One cannot be without these.

High Throw
Used while jumping towards an opponent, attacking the neck.
Can be used from jumping off the environment.
Can be used while running
Can be used while BT
If stunned the opponent is vulnerable and can be thrown.

Mid Throw
Standard throw aimed at standing opponents, can enter from a successful offensive hold or parry.
Can be used BT.
If stunned the opponent is vulnerable and can be thrown.

Low Throw
These would punish whiffed low parries and crouching opponents
Can be used from a successful OH or Parry
If stunned the opponent is vulnerable and can be thrown.
 

Zeo

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure whether I should say "Fuck your thoughts" or make you an example of why some people (myself included) are afraid to try to add or contribute anything to a discussion.
In all fairness. If you're used to someone acting like that, you shouldn't care and contribute anyway if you really want to. If one person's expected negativity is enough to stop you from sharing your thoughts or getting your voice heard, that honestly says more about you than the other person.
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
In all fairness. If you're used to someone acting like that, you shouldn't care and contribute anyway if you really want to. If one person's expected negativity is enough to stop you from sharing your thoughts or getting your voice heard, that honestly says more about you than the other person.
Don't underestimate one person. Depending on who it is, that person can be very influential and lead to multiple people jumping the bandwagon.
 
Ding ding ding, someone got it.It is what it is OldsmoBuick. You are trying to use it in a way it was never designed to be used which is why I say you are playing him incorrectly. DS wasn't designed to be a tool that is good at neutral, it's just a flashy mix up that gives him a quick way to keep the stun going.
I don't think I'm getting through to my fellow members... I'm in a thread posting my thoughts on changes I would make to DOA... while in a thread about changes I would make to DOA.

Being able to use DS from the neutral game, doesn't make Jann Lee broken or OP. The moves in DS are already available to him. The frame data is slightly different but it's mostly the same set of moves.

When I saw that Hayate couldn't cancel his attacks into WD, I cried 'foul'. Why shouldn't he be able to cancel into his stance? From the looks of things TN agreed, and now he can.

The only reason this topic has grown the way that it has, is because it's the infamous Jann Lee.
 
Give everyone else guaranteed situations, better damage, more frame advantage on block and more overall tools. Then MAYBE, we can talk about buffing Jann Lee a LITTLE bit.
Jann Lee only has one move that grants him frame advantage on block; 7P.

You are actually making the same point that I'm making -- although unintentionally. If other people can do something, why shouldn't everyone that it applies to, be able to do it too? I just want the same option that is given to other people with a stance; the ability to cancel into and perform the stance raw.

I don't even know if it makes him better. I just want the option.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Jann Lee only has one move that grants him frame advantage on block; 7P.

You are actually making the same point that I'm making -- although unintentionally. If other people can do something, why shouldn't everyone that it applies to, be able to do it too? I just want the same option that is given to other people with a stance; the ability to cancel into a or perform the stance raw.

I don't even know if it makes him better. I just want the option.

Because then we'd have DoA4 where everything was universal, and that game was garbage.

You need to realize that DS is a transitional stance. It doesn't need to be changed, he doesn't need to be able to go into it from neutral. Learn how to play the damn character correctly.
 

Murakame

Active Member
Give people proper frame data. What the hell is -8...on hit? I look at the frame data of some characters like *cough* Kasumi *cough* and my eyes burn. I understand having unsafe moves but like wtf? -8 on hit? Seriously? I just landed a hit and not only do I have to block but I can be throw punished for it? Screw this "people have to respect the string followups" give me the ability to apply real pressure via frame traps. Also what the hell is the point of a guard break when it's going to give some shitty advantage like *cough* Hayate's *cough* +1? He even has a guard break that's disadvantage on block lol smdh. How am I at disadvantage when I just broke your guard? that makes no sense. Fix the frame data TN! >:O
 
@ Kritoth: I like no. 1. I'm not fond of taking DH out of DOA, like you suggested in no. 2. You would be eliminating expert and advanced holds in the process. This would hurt quite a few players. 3 is interesting but... If the first hit doesn't cause an unholdable-stun the second would have to be variable for your suggestion to be anything truly different than what we have now -- unless I misunderstood your post. Whether you like them or not juggles are here to stay. They are good way to provide guaranteed damage without risking a reversal. Let's just hope they don't turn into Tekken or -- even worse -- VF juggles. Standing low guard sounds nice, but, I don't see a way to implement it that's fair. If we can press block and guard against high, mid and low attacks how do we break through someone's defense without grabbing them? In martial arts those forms of low defense you referred to are more akin to parries or sabakis. Using your shin to defend against a low attack is typically done to lessen damage.
 
Give people proper frame data. What the hell is -8...on hit? I look at the frame data of some characters like *cough* Kasumi *cough* and my eyes burn. I understand having unsafe moves but like wtf? -8 on hit? Seriously? I just landed a hit and not only do I have to block but I can be throw punished for it? Screw this "people have to respect the string followups" give me the ability to apply real pressure via frame traps. Also what the hell is the point of a guard break when it's going to give some shitty advantage like *cough* Hayate's *cough* +1? He even has a guard break that's disadvantage on block lol smdh. How am I at disadvantage when I just broke your guard? that makes no sense. Fix the frame data TN! >:O
Yeah -8 on hit is whack. I understand why they do it, but it doesn't seem 'right'.

They could compensate by making throws execute slower. They execute faster than any attack -- even Jann Lee's DS P, which, when it hits, automatically wins 2 rounds.
 
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