Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions

[Raansu]

My responses from the consolidated feedback thread:


I'm not wrong. What I stated is fact. It's not my fault you don't understand how whiff punishing works in other fighters compared to DOA.


I had no problems executing this attack.

- You are wrong and its been stated why you are wrong. Holds being 0 frames mean nothing when you are in recovery. You cannot hold during a whiff punishment and whiff punishment itself is not difficult in doa4, especially given how long the recovery was on so many attacks. And its even easier in DoA5.

-So whiff punishment is too difficult but an input that doesn't seem to work correctly and multiple people are having issues with, you magically find nothing wrong with...right, ok...whatever, you are the master!

 

[DrDogg]

It's avoiding an attack. That's no different than hit level priority, so in that thinking every attack would be defensive. I'm throwing an attack assuming I'm going to win, therefore it's offensive, unless you're doing it out of block to crush a string. The point is, is that his tools to get hits are limited against fast characters.

Almost every attack in the game is negative on block. Wait for a fast character to attack, then counterhold on reaction, duck if it was a high attack (this is particularly useful against Hitomi), or block and then attack yourself (or throw punish if it was an unsafe attack).

- You are wrong and its been stated why you are wrong. Holds being 0 frames mean nothing when you are in recovery. You cannot hold during a whiff punishment and whiff punishment itself is not difficult in doa4, especially given how long the recovery was on so many attacks. And its even easier in DoA5.

-So whiff punishment is too difficult but an input that doesn't seem to work correctly and multiple people are having issues with, you magically find nothing wrong with...right, ok...whatever, you are the master!

Every single person that I've discussed DOA whiff punishing with shares my opinion on it, except for the few people who have stated otherwise on this site (to my knowledge, you nor VPai are competitive in other fighters so...).

It's not like you can whiff punish wrong. An attack whiffs, you use a fast enough attack to punish during the recovery frames. It's not rocket science, it's the fact that DOA has shorter recovery frames on whiff (compared to other fighters and to the execution frames of whiff punishing attacks), and 0-frame counters force you to risk a counterhold to whiff punish. The risk/reward is skewed and the recovery of attacks in DOA is less than that of other fighters.

I don't know what to tell you about 46P. I have had ZERO issues pulling off the attack. I'm using a Sanwa stick with Semetsu buttons. Although I'm also one of the people who has never had an issue playing DOA on stick. Are you playing on stick or pad?

 

[Raansu]

I have tried it on both a stick and a pad and I have the same issue every time. 6p always comes out for 46p for Hitomi and multiple people are having the exact same issue.

I competed in VF5FS for the 2 years I was in Japan but thats about it and it was mostly just random events at the arcade, not that it really matters... Different fighters treat things differently. I'm not defending DoA4, I consider it trash but your thoughts on whiff punishment are incorrect. I have never once been countered doing a whiff punish. On the rare occasion it has been blocked, and it always came down to just lag screwing up the timing.

 

[Jefffcore]

I'm having the same problem. Are you doing it standing or after another attack? Because standing it'll come out every time, after something else it's heeellll. Try Busa's 66K, too, it's harder imo.

If you're whifff punishing properly you shouldn't be getting held, that would defeat the purpose.

 

[DrDogg]

I have tried it on both a stick and a pad and I have the same issue every time. 6p always comes out for 46p for Hitomi and multiple people are having the exact same issue.

I competed in VF5FS for the 2 years I was in Japan but thats about it and it was mostly just random events at the arcade, not that it really matters... Different fighters treat things differently. I'm not defending DoA4, I consider it trash but your thoughts on whiff punishment are incorrect. I have never once been countered doing a whiff punish. On the rare occasion it has been blocked, and it always came down to just lag screwing up the timing.

I don't think I've ever missed when attempting 46P, and I've mainly played Hitomi since none of my characters are in the demo. I use it quite frequently since it's so fast and the computer likes to just attack at random. I don't use it as much against humans because it's -11.

Also, when I discuss whiff punishment, I only mean offline... although I can whiff punish online in SC5 just fine. Odd how I have NO problem whiff punishing in ANY other fighting game... just DOA. But yes, clearly I'm the one doing it wrong.

 

[Raansu]

I don't think I've ever missed when attempting 46P, and I've mainly played Hitomi since none of my characters are in the demo. I use it quite frequently since it's so fast and the computer likes to just attack at random. I don't use it as much against humans because it's -11.

Also, when I discuss whiff punishment, I only mean offline... although I can whiff punish online in SC5 just fine. Odd how I have NO problem whiff punishing in ANY other fighting game... just DOA. But yes, clearly I'm the one doing it wrong.

I'm not getting into that stupid online/offline debate. Regardless it's even easier to do offline. I think it's more of an issue that you didn't play the damn game long enough, which I don't blame you cuz it sucked, but there was nothing difficult about it in doa4.

 

[DrDogg]

I'm not getting into that stupid online/offline debate. Regardless it's even easier to do offline. I think it's more of an issue that you didn't play the damn game long enough, which I don't blame you cuz it sucked, but there was nothing difficult about it in doa4.

Uh... whiff punishing is whiff punishing. It's not something you have to relearn for DOA. Still, I played DOA4 from its release, all the way through the end of CGS. You'd think over two years of playing it would be enough to whiff punish, but I guess DOA is just that much harder to play than Tekken, SC, VF and all of the other fighters that allow me to whiff punish just fine.

 

[Raansu]

Apparently not.

 

[Berzerk!]

I don't know why this is a discussion. Is there some doubt that there is whiff punishment in DOA? In DOA4 it's one of the key ways to ensure you can land safe damage. Look at any OffbeatNinja match. He "turtles" and plays safe to force the opponent into making a mistake, and one of the key tools is whiff punishment.
You can't counter out of move recovery in DOA, and you can argue recovery was too short in DOA4, but you'd only be correct if talking about recovery on counter holds. Whiffing actual moves puts you in trouble.
In DOA5, the recovery on holds is significant enough that you're going to get punished on counter whiff. So... I don't get the argument.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Because DOA has never had a competitive scene... even when it was in arcades.

I'm reading this reply in a tone that you're disagreeing with me, would that be right? And if so, I don't know why you would be disagreeing as it's basically what you just quoted from me.

The opponent can still punish. Block Hitomi's PP (-7 on block), free cancel out of it and try to interrupt a 5-frame throw punishment with an attack. The throw hits every time.

Maybe I'm confused by your statement, and perhaps you can clarify, but your example as I read it just further proves my theory: The 7 frames of disadvantage is not applied until the recovery animation of Hitomi's PP has completed, for which the blocking player is in a block stun until the first frame of that disadvantage. So since 5 < 7 then the throw (which is hitting on the 6th frame of Hitomi's disadvantage from free canceling) wins. If the PP was -5 or less disadvantaged then the attack after the free cancel would beat the throw.

I don't know why this is a discussion. Is there some doubt that there is whiff punishment in DOA?

DrDogg feels that there is no whiff punishment in DOA.

 

[Game Over]

Not like there's much of anything else to discuss right now. Unless someone wants to start a thread for Klingon women, warp drives, and The Force.

 

[Allan Paris]

I get what DrDogg is saying about whiff punishing, more so in DOA4. Playing offline I never really played anyone that threw out holds after everything, but playing online is another story. Yeah, it's online and most likely that's where people can get away with it. Still, in some pretty good connections players will do it, and it makes me believe that it can be applied offline as well.

For one, there are no normal hit launchers to have for whiff punishing (DOA4. DOA5?) so even when you whiff punish you are left to 50/50 guessing, if you don't knock your opponent down. I can whiff punish a DP in SF and don't have to worry about a possibility of my opponent fucking me up for doing right.

I do agree that you can whiff punish in DOA, I can do it as well with no problem. Still, there are quite a few moves that can be whiffed and you can bait attacks to hold from your opponent out of the move(s) you whiffed. I believe that some people have grown accustomed to what DOA presents and just goes with the flow, and that's understandable. Still to whiff punish in DOA4 is stupid, I know it is because after playing other fighters, SF and MK for example, I see how I can whiff punish in those games with no worries.Then I try to play DOA and it makes my stomach turn, DOA4 that is.

The i0 (i1) frame hold adds an unnecessary yomi game to whiff punishing in DOA4.

Side Note: Busa doesn't need anything more. In every game he is in (DOA) he manages to be stupid good with whatever they give him (high tier). I have always heard that excuse or bias ass statement, "Ryu, he's really slow, this move is not that good, or he has a hard time with so and so." That is bullshit on so many levels, if that's the case why is he and has always been the best character in DOA? Other characters don't need buffs, his ass needs to be fixed, point blank.

 

[Jefffcore]

Side Note: Busa doesn't need anything more. In every game he is in (DOA) he manages to be stupid good with whatever they give him (high tier). I have always heard that excuse or bias ass statement, "Ryu, he's really slow, this move is not that good, or he has a hard time with so and so." That is bullshit on so many levels, if that's the case why is he and has always been the best character in DOA? Other characters don't need buffs, his ass needs to be fixed, point blank.

Play the Demo.

 

[TRI Mike]

I dunno man, I don't have Busa in my demo but pretty much every seems to think Hitomi and Ayane are much better.

 

[Jefffcore]

I don't know anything about Ayane, but I can tell you why he was good in DOA4 and how he has nothing that made him good outside Izuna Drops. Handstance gets killed, 1k doesn't stun, 8k is 18i and unsafe, 3P+K(2P+K) doesn't crush mids and is super unsafe whether you Cancel it or finish it, 8p wont crush jabs and it's -11 on block, and his jabs are 11i.

Now he has PP4PK, 4PK, 3F+K that give him +8 and tracks; 33p is his best launcher; 124p(46p) offers unblockable attacks on stun and +2 on block, but good luck getting it, 3 point hold and sidestep kill it; 2k is still good; his shit in Ninpo; Handstand re launches; 4i and 6i throws; and an air throw.

Any fast character will shut that down and force him to Hold or Punish.

 

[Allan Paris]

Play the Demo.

*Reminder* This is just an alpha build.

I think you know what that means? At the end of the day, Ryu Hayabusa will still be an OD character, that will not change about him. I honestly don't see it, he's been that way for the past 6 iterations of the game (sadly enough I counted DOAD), lmao. Also, only a select few are playing that demo, I am pretty sure the lot of the real dogs aren't playing it. So, who knows what he can really do?

Going by the sound of it, that crush is crushing what it should be crushing, HIGHS. God forbid that, huh?

 

[Rikuto]

I have tried it on both a stick and a pad and I have the same issue every time. 6p always comes out for 46p for Hitomi and multiple people are having the exact same issue.

I competed in VF5FS for the 2 years I was in Japan but thats about it and it was mostly just random events at the arcade, not that it really matters... Different fighters treat things differently. I'm not defending DoA4, I consider it trash but your thoughts on whiff punishment are incorrect. I have never once been countered doing a whiff punish. On the rare occasion it has been blocked, and it always came down to just lag screwing up the timing.

Just pointing out the part with the blatant fabrication of truth. Especially since I do it to you on a regular basis whenever we play.

 

[Jefffcore]

"Real Dogs"? I'm not sure how to even respond to that.... You just insulted hella people. Yes, it's the alpha, that really doesn't change the fact that he gets killed by fast characters because he lacks good crushes. You're basing your entire argument offf assumptions.

 

[Rikuto]

"Real Dogs"? I'm not sure how to even respond to that.... You just insulted hella people. Yes, it's the alpha, that really doesn't change the fact that he gets killed by fast characters because he lacks good crushes. You're basing your entire argument offf assumptions.

Gota love that pp4pk though.

Frame advantage! woo!

 

[Jefffcore]

Gota love that pp4pk though.

Frame advantage! woo!

Damn straight, son!