Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions

[Master_Thespian]

I think 3 point holds are enough. Tekken and SoulCalibur only have 2 points. Virtua Fighter has 3 points. It's the fact that the hold window is too long/recovery too short and the holding from too many situations that should be disadvantageous that's the problem.

 

[Jefffcore]

-The mixup between mid and mid is very superficial. This mixup doesn't really deter the use of holds. What the player should be doing, is a mixup between a mid launcher and a throw. The launcher provides Damage, and the throw is punishment for you trying to hold the attack.

I don't agree.
- Attacker has a stun, they launch mid or throw.
- Defender has 2 things to guess: hold mid or attack.

That's just another 50/50

 

[Raansu]

Holds are too strong. People will get used to doing Advanced holds which still take too much damage, and the 3 point makes some great moves useless.

Are we playing the same game? The normal holds barely do any damage and the advanced holds only catch one attack. It's a good mix of trying to get both the 3 point and 4 point system into the game and I quite like the concept. If I want Hitomi's mid kick launcher hold I have to go for the advanced hold and either get the hold or eat a launcher.

 

[Jefffcore]

I don't see why the damage matters if it's hella easy to do. On paper it sounds good, applied it's still too strong.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I don't agree.
- Attacker has a stun, they launch mid or throw.
- Defender has 2 things to guess: hold mid or attack.

That's just another 50/50

-Another 50/50 would be a mixup between mid and mid . Both the risk/reward of holding both are exactly the same. If you are going to put your opponent in a 50/50, you will want the risk/reward in your favor. Doing the above is not the way to go. The throw is the ultimate punishment for holds. There is no other mixup option that should be accompanying a mid attack.

 

[TRI Mike]

I'm actually with Raansu on this. The damage of the normal holds is too short in the demo so just spamming them will not reward the defender player with a counter-attack that will take a quarter of the attacker's life bar. With the normal holds not damaging as much, the defender players will be forced to either go for the advanced ones or try and slow escape.

 

[Jefffcore]

-Another 50/50 would be a mixup between mid and mid . Both the risk/reward of holding both are exactly the same. If you are going to put your opponent in a 50/50, you will want the risk/reward in your favor. Doing the above is not the way to go. The throw is the ultimate punishment for holds. There is no other mixup option that should be accompanying a mid attack.

It's not a perfect 50/50. You're turning it into a 50/50 assuming your opponent knows what you know. There's still guessing there, and it's easier.

 

[virtuaPAI]

It's not a literal 50/50. You're turning it into a 50/50 assuming your opponent knows what you know. There's still guessing there, and it's easier.

-Well, at the higher levels of play, your opponent is going to know your attacks very well. Your opponent is going to know which of your attacks give frame advantage, which are throw punishable on block, which attacks are easily sidestep-able, the best launcher,best setups that your character is capable of, so on and so forth. Like all other fighters, the game is going to boil down to 50/50's. It is up to you to chose the ones that benefit you the most.

 

[Allan Paris]

What's a "literal" 50/50? Lol

Going by that match Jeff and AW, are low holds still too good? AW was doing it a little more than Jeff but, the spamming of it in stun and the recovery doesn't seem fixed. Unless Jeff's reaction to it was off or AW recovered to fast for him to do anything about it?

 

[Jefffcore]

More or less; and it shouldn't be like that every time I stun someone. 3 point holds are just one thing that makes it easier on the defender, and people will get used to the Advanced holds. There need to be more natural combos regardless, but the game isn't gonna be competitive with 3 point holds the way they are.

 

[Jefffcore]

What's a "literal" 50/50? Lol

Going by that match Jeff and AW, are low holds still too good? AW was doing it a little more than Jeff but, the spamming of it in stun and the recovery doesn't seem fixed. Unless Jeff's reaction to it was off or AW recovered to fast for him to do anything about it?

Lol I meant literal like there are only 2 options to guess from. His scenario has more than 2 options to guess from, but you're giving them 2 options to guess from off the bat.

It was our reaction to it mostly. There was one match that wasn't recorded where he low held out of a stun and I just walked up like 2 steps and threw him. lol Biggest reason I wasn't reacting was because I'd go for an Izuna expecting his mid or high hold, in which case I can't do anything about it. It's definitely possible to wait for it and punish it, but then you risk losing your stun if they don't hold. I needed to be 33ping him, or 124ping him into 33p instead of the izuna. I was still playing DOA4. Only thing then is 3 point holds kinda kill mids : P

Which puts you into actual 50/50...

 

[Allan Paris]

oh ok, thought the bs was still going on.

 

[virtuaPAI]

What's a "literal" 50/50? Lol

-Lol, 50/50's are just that. There are some that give equal rewards for both the offensive and defensive player, ones that favor the offensive player, and ones that favor the defensive player. Keep in mind that players need to apply those 50/50's that benefit them.

Going by that match Jeff and AW, are low holds still too good? AW was doing it a little more than Jeff but, the spamming of it in stun and the recovery doesn't seem fixed. Unless Jeff's reaction to it was off or AW recovered to fast for him to do anything about it?

-No, low holds are not still too good. They recover much slower now, and do not provide frame advantage they once did when escaping highs. The low hold was simply wasn't punished well.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I'm actually with Raansu on this. The damage of the normal holds is too short in the demo so just spamming them will not reward the defender player with a counter-attack that will take a quarter of the attacker's life bar. With the normal holds not damaging as much, the defender players will be forced to either go for the advanced ones or try and slow escape.

Can I still use holds to escape damage really often? Yes, so they're still "too powerful." Power isn't just measured in damage and the fact that I can still use them to escape scary scenarios, granted slightly fewer than DOA4, still makes them far too powerful and prevalent. I was casually playing DOA5 in front of one of my brother's friends and his impression, that I didn't push to get, was that he "hadn't seen a game so dependent on counters before." If super casual players are picking up on that then we clearly have an issue, no matter how much people like you or Raansu want to claim otherwise. So what is the hardcore fighting game community going to think when they see that again?

 

[Berzerk!]

-The mixup between mid and mid is very superficial. This mixup doesn't really deter the use of holds. What the player should be doing, is a mixup between a mid launcher and a throw. The launcher provides Damage, and the throw is punishment for you trying to hold the attack.

Almost to counter my own argument, I would add to your post that if they put in more low/high, high/low, or even mid/low-low/mid strings, it would allow you to create counter hits on opponents that like to mid counter all the time, and for those that like to low counter, you mid hit stagger them or setup for low throw.

All that said, I'm not convinced yet that it wouldn't be neater and more deliberate to have a forward hold for mid kicks.

 

[Allan Paris]

-Lol, 50/50's are just that. There are some that give equal rewards for both the offensive and defensive player, ones that favor the offensive player, and ones that favor the defensive player. Keep in mind that players need to apply those 50/50's that benefit them.

haha, I am well aware of what a 50/50 is and what comes with them. I was just being funny when he said "literal 50/50" because a 50/50 is just a..... . . 50/50. lol

-No, low holds are not still too good. They recover much slower now, and do not provide frame advantage they once did when escaping highs. The low hold was simply wasn't punished well.

Good, real good.

 

[Berzerk!]

Can I still use holds to escape damage really often? Yes, so they're still "too powerful." Power isn't just measured in damage and the fact that I can still use them to escape scary scenarios, granted slightly fewer than DOA4, still makes them far too powerful and prevalent. I was casually playing DOA5 in front of one of my brother's friends and his impression, that I didn't push to get, was that he "hadn't seen a game so dependent on counters before." If super casual players are picking up on that then we clearly have an issue, no matter how much people like you or Raansu want to claim otherwise. So what is the hardcore fighting game community going to think when they see that again?

I don't think that even in the current state that holds/counters are too powerful and prevalent. It's a feature of the game, but now that you get punished hard for doing them wrong (by good players), there is a counter argument about the deeper game.

Obviously, I'm still slightly concerned by virtue of asking for 4 point holds.

But, I think the scenario you give above of casual players making that observation, is a fair example to use, but I think you're drawing an inverse conclusion of what hardcore players will understand. Casual players may observe the counters, but competitive players worth their salt will investigate and find out how much pain is in for hold-happy players who make mistakes.

I'd say its up to us as DOA players to explain that dynamic - sure, holds are easy to do, but if you get them wrong, you're opening yourself up to damage. I've found that one of the most gratifying and easy to explain things to fighting players who have tried the new demo. Its got its risk-reward factor about right (I think 4 point would do away with the "lucky hold" as much as it needs to) and hardcore players will appreciate that. I know I do.

 

[Raansu]

I'm not sure if this is a bug or if they gave Hitomi just frames but on both 6kkk and 66ppp I skipped part of those strings. On 6kkk instead of doing her second high kick she went from her mid knee to the downward mid kick. Her 66ppp instead of doing her second mid punch she did the first high punch then right into the third launching punch.

 

[Allan Paris]

Do wake-up kicks still give the same deep stun when you are hit by them? Also, are they still like projectiles?

Edit: I am talking about the same deep stun from DOA4.

 

[Chris Harris]

What people have to understand about DoA is the mid attack/throw game is a core of it because of the hold system. The hold makes and breaks the game but it is also what keeps the game unique. They have moved a step in the right direction with how the alpha version is right now because you get damage from certain aspects that you didn't before.

So now playing a spacing game and being able to score knockdowns are much more important since the whiff punishment nets knock downs or safe pressure games.

I haven't played the demo yet but because of how Hitomi is she is already super strong out of those 4 characters. If she knocks you down you have to get up without a wake up kick because she can stand just outside of range charging and if you don't do a kick just cancel it and apply pressure with 3f+k (I think that's the notation for it in the game) again. And that works for a big portion of the cast.

That along with walls not being able to hold off of and I don't think you can even do a wake up kick after a wall splat anymore. The special explosion walls net a free combo as well so you get a lot more reward in this game for your positioning. Knocking people down or into walls in DoA 4 was a nightmare because it gave the defender a lot more power over you.

With how little damage normal holds do now it's not nearly as "spammable" and some of the moves look like they recover faster in general so you can punish low holding easier or on reaction probably.

I'll be able to fully evaluate how the alpha version is once I play it in a couple of weeks.