Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions

[Rikuto]

Berzerk, when the game dies within a few months, I want you to write an 8000 word essay (minimum) on why you were wrong, and I was right, and how nobody should ever argue with me again.

 

[x Sypher x]

For all the people who keep saying DOA5 is looking great so far and are being very (overly) optimistic about it, and for all the people who are pointing out the flaws that are still present and sharing their concerns, don't forget there is still about half a year left of development time to build this game. Yes I know that may not be enough time at this rate, but only TIME will tell how it will turn out. So for now just sit back, relax, play/test the dam thing if you wish, provide your feedback before the deadline, and just WAIT. That's all we can do for now.

 

[Berzerk!]

Berzerk, when the game dies within a few months, I want you to write an 8000 word essay (minimum) on why you were wrong, and I was right, and how nobody should ever argue with me again.

I'll save us both the time - whether it succeeds or fails will have NOTHING to do with you or your opinion. That's nothing against you. We both know its not up to us by and large.

Besides what am I wrong about? What "claim" have I made that you are refuting? I'm not staking anything on it or guaranteeing success. I'm saying on the demo basis I believe it will be a good game, and that the naysaying about the FGC and how they will DEFINITELY NOT like it are comments made out of order, in a vaccuum almost. You don't KNOW that "they" will not like it. On the straw poll I've taken with non-DOA players, they DO like it. So on my limited evidence vs your zero evidence of FGC reaction, I've got reason to draw - TENTATIVELY - a positive opinion.

I wouldn't throw my hat in on anything like a prediction other than "it looks good so far" and otherwise, will stick by what Sypher suggests.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Honestly, I feel the same as Dogg at this point (don't be a jerk, though). I don't really feel that safe attacking and as a defensive player, I have to rely solely on throw punish because they're the only guaranteed form of punishment in these games, which is why I play grapplers. If I'm playing as an offensive player, I just have to mix up, is mixing up high mid lows to keep the other person guessing, which is like going through a check-list.

Having played VF in tourney with top players recently, I saw how different the two games (VF and DOA) play. At the end, DOA simply boils down to a 2D game of Yomi and guessing of High-Mid-Low mixups with execution thrown out the window since it's so light on technicals. Some generic things like 2Ps are still there, though most characters have lost their old ducking 2Ps, so their usefulness is gone now and it's difficult to disrupt an opponent's flow when your 2P doesn't crush highs or duck. Kickboxing after an evade seems like a bad idea in the demo, unlike VF when you can PK after a successful evade of a linear move. You can throw punish, but I would've preferred a generic PK just to make sure. Sabakis are really important in VF. Lau for example has only one punch sabaki but that ends up changing his game altogether. If he didn't have things like his 46P+K or 6G+P+K, he would not have been as scary. I don't even know if there are any Sabakis in DOA (I don't know if Hitomi's 9H counts as Sabaki, so it might or might not fall into that category).

Throw breaks are also very important. There is a great deal of yomi involved when you're fighting against Kage or Wolf and have to figure out what they'd do in a certain situation. For example, would a cornered Wolf go for a 4 throw or giant swing? If it's a wall-less stage, it could be a 4 throw just to ring you out, but then the Wolf player goes for a swing and then the game's chemistry is changed. Kage is major pain because his 2 throw is the most damaging the game and his 4 throw launches. In DOA, you just have to worry about breaking standard grabs after certain unsafe moves and duck offensive holds. That's it. So, basically, you end up going back and forth to be out of throw range and try to whiff punish (which a part of Bass' strategy of punishing mistakes).

And the whole "go play 3.1" argument isn't gonna change anything because that's not the most accessible option out there. If I was a dedicated DOA fan, sure I would've gone through the pain of modding an xbox and getting a copy from Japan, but then no one really gives a shit about 3.1 here. I keep mentioning it to other people, I set up 3.2 and no one is giving a shit at all. DOA4 is a "disgrace" here. Some people didn't even want 3.2 on their 360s. I can't push a game that has a bad reputation. It just doesn't work amongst players, especially old school ones.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

And the whole "go play 3.1" argument isn't gonna change anything because that's not the most accessible option out there. If I was a dedicated DOA fan, sure I would've gone through the pain of modding an xbox and getting a copy from Japan, but then no one really gives a shit about 3.1 here. I keep mentioning it to other people, I set up 3.2 and no one is giving a shit at all. DOA4 is a "disgrace" here. Some people didn't even want 3.2 on their 360s. I can't push a game that has a bad reputation. It just doesn't work amongst players, especially old school ones.

hey man
I'd gladly play you here in london if you're up for it.
ill be away for easter but when im back we can sort something out ...

infact i was talking with some tournament organizers here to try and setup some mini doa5 tourney just to build up some hype ... nothing official yet ... and I'll probably follow up on it more when I'm back in london in 2 weeks time so I'll make some sort of post here ..

.

 

[UncleKitchener]

hey man
I'd gladly play you here in london if you're up for it.
ill be away for easter but when im back we can sort something out ...

infact i was talking with some tournament organizers here to try and setup some mini doa5 tourney just to build up some hype ... nothing official yet ... and I'll probably follow up on it more when I'm back in london in 2 weeks time so I'll make some sort of post here ..

.

You should talk to Hurrican Rev, not me.

 

[DrDogg]

Blocking is only one option and it only works for so long.... You still have to worry about getting thrown, then you need to start throwing attacks and his just aren`t that good. Could I, or someone win with him, sure; that`s not really the point. Even if he was given one mid crush he still wouldn`t be better than Hitomi is right now, it`s just a balancing tool.

Why does he need to be as good as Hitomi? Hayabusa is not the worst character in the demo right? So why is it so hard for you to accept a mid-tier Hayabusa? For all we know, Hayabusa in his current state could be top tier, just below Hitomi, and better than 90% of the cast. Even if he's not, unless he's low tier, you really have nothing to complain about.

I have to say I think this stance is nonsense. It is okay for you to hold this opinion because of your history with DOA; it gives you pause since you've seen negative impacts during DOA4, but this isn't DOA4 and honestly most players will take the game as new and experience it as a new game, so most of its mechanics will be taken on face value, as part of an overall new system, and the game will be played if people like it.

Even based on the demo, people like this game! The main challenge is not that it's DOA or that it has counter holds or any of the other small quibbles, its that its a 3D game and it has a block button. It's because the 2D crowd have to do a bit of work to change their mindset a little.

DOA5 will feel fair and will be fun to play, and good players WILL beat lesser skilled players. That makes it solidly competitive, certainly on its way to par or better with most if not all of the current batch of fighters.

I disagree. The problems with DOA4 and the reason most non-DOA players dislike the game are still very present within the DOA5 demo. I know some of those people are enjoying the demo, but how many of them have really started to break down the game? What happens when they go into training mode and find that guessing still prevails over real strategy?

It has nothing to do with the fact that DOA has a block button. SC and MK both have block buttons and both have significantly larger competitive scenes than DOA has ever had. If the game is solid, people will play it at tournaments. If the game remains similar to the demo, it will not have a strong competitive scene.

For all the people who keep saying DOA5 is looking great so far and are being very (overly) optimistic about it, and for all the people who are pointing out the flaws that are still present and sharing their concerns, don't forget there is still about half a year left of development time to build this game. Yes I know that may not be enough time at this rate, but only TIME will tell how it will turn out. So for now just sit back, relax, play/test the dam thing if you wish, provide your feedback before the deadline, and just WAIT. That's all we can do for now.

I'm still hopeful that the game will end up competitive. I've stated many times that I will not pass true judgement until at least E3, and even then I'll give it until the final build before I decide if I'm going to buy the game or not. I want the game to be good, and I understand that the demo is very dated code. I'm very much looking forward to playing the game at E3.

That said, when the people around here try to say that the game is competitive in it's current form (the demo), I'm going to make sure that my opinion is heard on why it's not competitive. Because if Team Ninja was listening to some of the people here, there wouldn't be many changes made from what we currently have, and the game would be dead on arrival in terms of a competitive scene.

You don't KNOW that "they" will not like it. On the straw poll I've taken with non-DOA players, they DO like it. So on my limited evidence vs your zero evidence of FGC reaction, I've got reason to draw - TENTATIVELY - a positive opinion.

But Rikuto and myself represent a portion of the FGC. The only difference between us and the average Tekken or SC player is that we've played and enjoyed DOA in the past and are hopeful that DOA5 is a competitive game. The people who you've polled probably wouldn't care all that much if they end up not liking DOA5 (unless they've spent money on it).

 

[Jefffcore]

Are you looking at the big picture? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing with me? I'm starting to thing the latter.

 

[DrDogg]

Are you looking at the big picture? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing with me? I'm starting to thing the latter.

I don't feel Hayabusa is low tier, or needs a buff. That's why I'm posing these questions to you.

If we were three months into the final release of the game and it was clear that Hayabusa was low tier and one of the worst characters, then I'd agree that a buff is necessary. But he's not even the worst in the demo. It seems to me like all you want is for Hayabusa to be top tier again (which he very well could be).

 

[Jefffcore]

Ok, gotcha. My suggestion was just to balance out the game, not to make him top tier. If I had better knowledge of the other characters I'd do the same, but I haven't had time with them. As it stands, I can tell you that Hayabusa is going to be really bad against faster characters because of his lack of options.

 

[Aion]

Ok, gotcha. My suggestion was just to balance out the game, not to make him top tier. If I had better knowledge of the other characters I'd do the same, but I haven't had time with them. As it stands, I can tell you that Hayabusa is going to be really bad against faster characters because of his lack of options.

Everytime I see your name I think of Jeffster:

 

[Berzerk!]

Ok, gotcha. My suggestion was just to balance out the game, not to make him top tier. If I had better knowledge of the other characters I'd do the same, but I haven't had time with them. As it stands, I can tell you that Hayabusa is going to be really bad against faster characters because of his lack of options.

I don't really mean to extend this side of the discussion, but I wanted to say, as someone who has been giving reasons why DOA5 looks like it will be a good/great game, that your assessment on Hayabusa is... well, crazy.

CRAZY. He's going to be just fine. Great even. I can't understate it more than that.

 

[Jefffcore]

Why do you think that?

 

[MeanMrMustard]

I wonder what Manny has to say about the current state of Hayabusa...

Can people give me reasons why Ayane is good? I really want to see matches between people but it seems like the community is too small and spread out for that.

 

[grap3fruitman]

-I am sure I said "Every single action and reaction both you and your opponent engage in is a guess". If you are not making a guess, your opponent is. Why would your opponent do an unsafe attack? unless he thought you would get hit by it. He took a chance, a guess. Why would you do a safe poke? Cause you presume your opponent is just going to block as opposed to risk counter attacking, stepping, spacing..etc. It's an educated guess based on your competitive knowledge. Why would you go for a ring out throw? Cause you presume that it will be the most effective action compared to doing say a ring out attack. You can be absolutely wrong and not be successful. Once again It's an educated guess based on your competitive knowledge.

VP you know better than that to know what kind of guessing is being referred to. What you mention here is in any game. What DrDogg is referring to is to the guessing that's constantly present after your opponent has made some kind of decision. Everything in DOA comes back to guessing.

It's been most appealing to Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and Soul Calibur players I've shown it to. Some of the top Street Fighter players have given it a go and had a wild time casually with it, but they're busy concentrating on SFxT right now. By September release I think there will be a fair bit of anticipation for what will feel like a very fresh game.

No one's arguing that the game isn't fun on a casual level, it's when you try to play it at a higher level that the game gets frustrating. I'm not even a high level player but trying to learn the game has always been tedious and disheartening because everything boils down to guessing. I would like to minimize guessing in favor of knowledgeable setups and follow-ups. I can learn that, I can't learn to guess well.

 

[DriftSlave]

as someone who wants to come back to DOA(i wasn't feeling 4 competitively) I want them to rework the hold system completely....yeah they can still be there but remove being able to do them from stuns(or at least certain stuns) to prevent this from happening.

Im completely fine with holds being done in a neutral state or in blockstun...because DOA in its current state will continue to teach bad fundamentals...not rewarding players for aggressive offensive or teach players to read and react to moves and strings like they should...instead in promotes guessing and that's stupid in my opinion...why should I guess if im the one putting on pressure....my opponent should have to guess. If the move i do is punishable or is readable then i can understand why i got counter hold...uhh whatever this has been beaten to death now and me adding to it isnt going to change anything...but I do want this game to be competitive...and I can't see it being so if the game in its current form is released this coming September...

the community may say shit like oh we don't want to be at EVO but MLG(E-SPORTS!!!!) isn't going to take you either due to lack of interest(like with KOFXIII but at least they are at EVO, they have a community that is strong....say wassup to dreamcancel.com) KT and its community have to work together and its going to come down to everyone working together....well mostly...

 

[Berzerk!]

VP you know better than that to know what kind of guessing is being referred to. What you mention here is in any game. What DrDogg is referring to is to the guessing that's constantly present after your opponent has made some kind of decision. Everything in DOA comes back to guessing.

See, I don't agree with this. Things have changed. A good attacker will force the defender into bad choices and has time to see those choices and make the most of them. A lot of the discussion around this has also assumed players will play at optimal speed and each moves active and recovery frames will line up exactly. That's not true, as the flow of play will always dictate a "natural frame lag" between even good players that accounts for distance, reaction time and execution time.

When you bring DOA5 into it, this is more pronounced as the recovery of the key problem people cite in the "guessing game", holds, have already been adjusted to a very manageable level. It's worth saying they could be tweaked more to further minimise the issue (my solution is 4-point, and maybe a little more tightening on the active frames, and recovery frames - and to put a nail in it, no holding in critical as discussed ad nauseum).

By playing well in the game as it is now, you minimise guessing to a very acceptable level. I do not find players flouting guesses and feel like I'm losing ground because of silly luck on the side of my opponent in DOA5.

No one's arguing that the game isn't fun on a casual level, it's when you try to play it at a higher level that the game gets frustrating. I'm not even a high level player but trying to learn the game has always been tedious and disheartening because everything boils down to guessing. I would like to minimize guessing in favor of knowledgeable setups and follow-ups. I can learn that, I can't learn to guess well.

Don't misunderstand, the SF players I'm talking about are 2D players only whose first reaction to trying the game is "I don't know how to play 3D games". BUT - for players who have played a bigger spread of games and are high level in other 3D games have all responded positively; and I don't consider extended play on the demo with some of these guys as "just" casual play, it would be like playing someone from this board with a slight movelist/knowledge disadvantage.

System wise, its been received well. To quote one of the Tekken players who played it (and placed top 4 in SC5 on the weekend) "I'm definitely getting this game".

 

[Jefffcore]

See, I don't agree with this. Things have changed. A good attacker will force the defender into bad choices and has time to see those choices and make the most of them. A lot of the discussion around this has also assumed players will play at optimal speed and each moves active and recovery frames will line up exactly. That's not true, as the flow of play will always dictate a "natural frame lag" between even good players that accounts for distance, reaction time and execution time.

When you bring DOA5 into it, this is more pronounced as the recovery of the key problem people cite in the "guessing game", holds, have already been adjusted to a very manageable level. It's worth saying they could be tweaked more to further minimise the issue (my solution is 4-point, and maybe a little more tightening on the active frames, and recovery frames - and to put a nail in it, no holding in critical as discussed ad nauseum).

By playing well in the game as it is now, you minimise guessing to a very acceptable level. I do not find players flouting guesses and feel like I'm losing ground because of silly luck on the side of my opponent in DOA5.

I disagree. Holds come out instantly, the only time you have time to see them is if you wait, and if you're waiting you're risking losing the stun you have. The guessing game is still the same, it's just possible to punish bad choices if you want to risk waiting. With 3 point holds it's even easier for the defender to guess...

Imagine you stun someone, they hold your mid launch. Next time you stun them you expect the hold, so you go for the throw and they hold low; or you wait to see the hold and they attack because they're inside your head seducing your brain. It can always go both ways.

 

[synce]

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I think the little tweaks they did to te system make the characters feel like they arent as good as they used to be .. but theres a few things that you need to bare in mind ...

- they kind of added to the weight of the characters so they dont float as high anymore
- after a wall bounce your options (with all the cast) are limited simply because the opponent is not on their feet anymore and theres no other way to relaunch them (unless you go to that side where the trashcan falls on your head resetting u to standing state .. lol .. i thought that was sick )
- the number of moves you can stun someone before a launch have been reduced as well ..
all in all the combo system of the game has been toned down... and I think its for the better although I have a feeling this will have a negative impact on tag mode. (still hoping they dont change tagging from H+P+K )
- there is alot more emphasis on environmental damage ... and character with the ability to push you or slam you near the wall , as well as the ability to escape wall situations, plays a role in a characters strength.

this in turn affected some characters ...
ayane for example cant just freely launch with into as freely without causing the right stun for the right launch as she used to in DOA4 ... but ... on the other hand they gave her a which is slightly slower .. but does the same thing only in certain situations after a float it ends up becoming a combo ender

hayabusa had a few things taken out particularly his now ends up the opponent too far for a combo extender or a launcher ... another thing is his DOA4 360 can no longer be done outside of his special stance ... but lets be realistic ... that was kind of cheap for a dialup combo especially since you had other variations that made it slightly safer (yes I understand it is highly punishable)

but hayabusa is far from being mid or even crap tier ...
- he still has insane high, low, mid mixups
- he has his teleport behind when pressing from his stance to end up behind an opened up opponent that tried to press a mid or high button as well as a side teleport with which is great dfor repositioning
- he has an air throw for crying out loud that can connect from pretty much anything .. 2 things to be noted are from a wall bounce .. and from his the latter being a little cheap but still distance specific so its not THAT cheap .. i think its fine.
- he still has a garanteed damage on a full Izuna drop
- he has some of the best air juggle combos that garantee a wall hit ... and in this game it is a big deal .. especially since it is a key to activating danger zone/ringout sequences ....
- he has a reasonable ability to land an extra few hits after danger zone juggles.
- although his doesnt keep the opponent beside him from the front, if done from behind the opponent you can still extend your combos like you used to in DOA4 .. I think thats a great tool for maximizing damage from behind
- the fact that he has every option from his stance apart from maybe a high kick ... is still very useful and there are many situations where he can get a free "relatively" safe setup for the stance ...
- he still has his get out of jail free card when put near the corner (his )

yes hitomi got buffs but if anything shes got them to cope with the madness happening around her ...
I agree shes pretty good ... but I cant really say shes better than hayabusa ... alot of her stuff is still mid and for this game thats quite a disadvantage now that they went back to the 3 point hold system. because in order to really be effective you're going to have to hold cancel quite alot, which is not hard to do
one thing i noticed (and managed to pull off a few times) is her counter that cancels into or is acctually throwable between the two ... plus you cant do it on defence just like it used to be in DOA4 so again its not as cheap as i previously thought.

but i think the top 2 for now are hayabusa and hitomi (without specifying who's acctually better) .. again this is all a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

ayane is still pretty awesome as well ... as for hayate i just have the feeling he's incomplete ... and I think he will have some good changes in the final build ...

but if this is the general road they're taking with handeling the cast .. Honestly I'm quite happy ...