Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions

[x Sypher x]

No, they are asking for feedback, so we should be considering these issues when we think about what feedback we want to give.

Yes you're absolutely right. My bad, I failed to keep that in mind while responding. But I really hope they put our feedback to good use. Then again, while some of use share common ideas and agree upon certain things, there are many who also have different POV's. It scares me to think all of it might get skewed when they decide to review our input.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Tournaments consisting of 6-10 players and a scene totaling no more than 30-40 players throughout the entire life of the game isn't exactly a proper testing ground for competitive play.

-LMAO. With that thought, We all must be wrong about Doa4! But guess who came to the conclusion(early on mind you) that the game was not competitive? Thats right, the Doa community. There had to be competitive minded players involved to come to such a conclusion.

Have you seen me play the demo? How do you know I'm playing it like DOA4?

-I do not need to when you have stated on multiple accounts that it plays like Doa4. What other conclusion can be deduced. Or How about you making the statement that frame advantage would not work in Doa5's current system. Once again, it falls back on you not having any experience with a Doa that have such tools and assets.

I tried to play it like I play other competitive games. I didn't even attempt to play a match until I had made an Excel file with frame data so I knew what attacks I wanted to focus on. Guess what? Frame advantage didn't mean much, there were no guaranteed damage setups and virtually no wakeup pressure.

-Guess what, you are still playing the game like Doa4.

Perhaps you should try looking at my posts as me sharing my point of view and not attacking people. You've said far more things that can be taken as attacks than I have. I'm not attacking anyone and I didn't even aggressive defend my stance until you started acting like I don't know what I'm talking about and your vision of DOA is the best DOA.

-And when did I start to get aggressive...Oh thats right, it is when you started stating how I was just a "doa player" and that it some how proves I do not know what I am talking about. I could 100% care less if you have differing opinions than mine. I am not going to attack you for it, or make sideways comments. I debate what you have stated, not what kind of player you are. Something that you failed at.

I don't feel like digging through each thread to quote examples of this, but you make just as many assumptions as I do.

-Assumptions that you have yet to play a competitive doa with the tools that was provided in the demo? Which is true because you didn't compete in 3.1. Or The assumption that you are playing the demo like doa4? Which is true because you stated yourself that it plays like Doa4.

Bottom line, I stated that the demo is not competitive. You said that it is. I stated my reasons why I believe you're incorrect. You took it as an insult and decided to lash out. Not my fault you can't have a debate without getting your feelings hurt.

-You are a trip. Maybe you simply do not realize when you are being condescending. You are not someone of importance for where my feelings would be hurt just because you made a few comments. Im not upset at all, just pointing out how you are coming off to people. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Aion]

@DrDogg: I didn't actually mean that DOA4 is competitive (by tourney, or larger standards), nor would my definition of the word lead to that idea...because as we know, DOA4 or DOA in general hasn't had a large competitive scene. We all remember the times where we were mocked for having 7 man tourney's; 13 man majors etc; and all the time we spent trying to get online players to go to offline events.

I actually understand what you're saying when you talk about 'competitive' games; but I was getting a feeling that some people were or would misunderstand as the term can be quite subjective if used in general.

 

[MeanMrMustard]

A few nice tweaks to wake up kicks would be to get rid of the high, make them unsafe on block (both mid and low), and have them NOT stun on hit. Slight disadvantage or even neutral would be fine (unless it is a CH of course, in which case advantage would be preferable over a full stun). Also making them linear would be nice so players could have set ups where they could sidestep them and get to the opponent's back and punish them for trying to do the wake up kick.

I'm also with Chris about the NH launchers. Moves like Bass p+k, Hayate 8p, and Ayane BT 6p (boy would I love this) should be NH launchers to either use as block or whiff punishment. If Bass could do p+k to block punish, get a ground slam, and a free pick up, that would give him viable options in situations that he did not have in 4 and even 3.1 since p+k was not a NH launcher in that game either.

In DOA4, if a player whiff punishes with Ayane's BT 6p, all they would get is a stun. If they do a launcher right away, they risk being held for only a minimal launch height. From what it sounds like, this situation still exists in DOA5, and is something that is hopefully addressed in the final version. Just because a launch would be full height does not make up for the fact that the launcher would be holdable in the first place.

I also like the system they had in 4.0 where some strings were 3-in-1s or 2-in-1s on crouching opponents. Ayane 3pp (with a full or decent launch), Busa's 3ppp, and Zack's 3ppp would add to the game without adding more counter hold situations. Even strings with nice range that are unholdable after the first hit on NH would help the whiff punishing problem. Ayane's kkk* (not sure if it's different in the demo) would be a nice way to block and whiff punish without worrying about holds. Make the strings unsafe on block or end in highs but hit confirmable (or safe after the first few hits) and it would add some of the depth we want from our game.

*Sorry for so many Ayane examples, but since I'm an Ayane player examples for her are easier for me to come up with.

Having the stun system is fine, as long as there are ways to work around it; with special stuns that don't allow holds, NH launchers, and strings guaranteed after the first hit, the game could make great strides towards being a great fighter. That was the strength of 3.1. A player could formulate an effective strategy by limiting how much they would risk putting their opponent in a stun. The problem though is some of it was based on getting a CH, and the hold was still a big part of the game because certain strings could be held on reaction which would limit their usefulness.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I also like the system they had in 4.0 where some strings were 3-in-1s or 2-in-1s on crouching opponents. Ayane 3pp (with a full or decent launch), Busa's 3ppp, and Zack's 3ppp would add to the game without adding more counter hold situations.

Just as a reminder, that was in 3.1 as well and why they took it out of 4.1 due to it being what he was trying to 'clean up' for 4.0. It was just the clutter left over.

In 3.1 for example, Busa's 3PPP is 3i1 on crouching but the last two are a 2i1 on standing. It's the lifting stun on crouching that allows for it. Same for Gen Fu's P+KPP where the first hit would force them up to get hit by the high (2i1 standing, 3i1 crouching). It's another reason why you wouldn't low hold in 3.1

 

[Raansu]

Just as a reminder, that was in 3.1 as well and why they took it out of 4.1 due to it being what he was trying to 'clean up' for 4.0. It was just the clutter left over.

In 3.1 for example, Busa's 3PPP is 3i1 on crouching but the last two are a 2i1 on standing. It's the lifting stun on crouching that allows for it. Same for Gen Fu's P+KPP where the first hit would force them up to get hit by the high (2i1 standing, 3i1 crouching). It's another reason why you wouldn't low hold in 3.1

Pretty much another reason why we should of been playing 4.0 over 4.1 since it was "difficult" to get 3.1 lol...

 

[TRI Mike]

While I do consider myself a good DOA player (I won the only 2 small tourneys that ever happened in my country), I'm not a pro or anything and barely played with most of you online in the early DOA4 months but I need to say some things after reading the entire thread: Yes, I feel that a few things should be fixed or changed in the demo, like 0-frame holds in any stun, "hadoken" wake-up kicks, and others but I seriously think that you guys should stop the hating on the franchise a little.

Now that DOAC is no more, we're pretty much the only DOA-focused forum in the entire internet where people want to play the game instead of stare at the girl's tits and if we plan on other people to get interested in the series, we won't help them one bit by inviting them to the forums only for them to find a million threads with the "fans" talking shit about the franchise. I respect DrDogg a lot and find his opinions useful but he keeps saying that he wants the game to appeal to a so called "fighting game community" by being competitive but as that same community states, VF and KOF are probably the best and more "competitive" fighting game franchises ever made and yet, people seem to be scared of getting into them. It happens to me all the time when I show the Xbox 360 version of VF5 and KOF13 to people that they end up saying something like "the game is awesome, very deep and full of crazy rules but I'd rather stay on (name other mainstream game here)".

That "competitive community" doesn't really play what's more pro, they play what's popular and the proof of that is the HUGE success of a piece of shit like Marvel vs. Capcom 3. We DOA fans whine about the franchise being a guessing game but MvC3 takes that to another level. The entire game is a lottery about picking a team of top-tier characters and getting the first hit that guarantees and entire combo while the defending player can't do anything but watch how his/her characters are getting their asses kicked for about 10 seconds. Yet, the game is incredibly popular worldwide, but it's not because of the system, it's because it mixes popular characters from two very-famous brands like Capcom and Marvel Comics.

If we want DOA to be more competitive, we should aim for it to be more like a faster version of VF with ninjas and big-breasted women and then enjoy it for what it is, without trying to get the attention from a bunch of people who only play what's popular. I give another example that my friends always bring to me. They're big Halo fans and they consider the franchise to be "competitive" but since Call of Duty became famous, the "competitive scene" in Halo got drastically reduced because 1) people decided to stop losing to the good players in Halo and 2) COD simply became more popular. Proof of this is the lesser success of Halo Reach compared to the original trilogy. Reach had to compete with COD while Halo 1, 2 and 3 didn't.

Only time will tell if DOA5 will be successful competitively or not. It's right for us to over-analyze the demo because that's precisely what Team Ninja asked us to do. I for one will buy both the 360 and PS3 versions and try to be as good on it as possible because I simply fell in love with the demo. Even if the Capcom/Namco fans decide not to pay attention to it, I think the game will be cool and quite successful.

 

[DriftSlave]

^its Shoryuken~ as it has frames of invulnerability

But more or less what Mike says is true...DOA has a community like any other game, and it should take similar action to communities such as 8-wayrun(soul calibur) and dreamcancel(KOF) in getting their game played.

DOA and VF used to be close cousins and shared similar things(3 buttons, etc.), however that all changed when Team Ninja left the arcade market and focused more on the console market...VF is still big in the arcades...and DOA is rather dead world wide...now Team Ninja is now open to suggestions...this does not mean it will insure that it'll change anything but our opinions would be heard.

The thing is....most people here have to come to a consensus and agree upon 1 solid set of changes....hopefully if people get their shit together and show this list to Team Ninja and tell them "why" these changes need to be made...we can finally get somewhere...but before that we all have to do the former.

now we are going to have people argue that DOA doesn't need to change or it doesn't need to change that much....well this is what I have to say to you guys....no offense but....If DOA5 is similar to the Demo we played...that shit isn't going to EVO(or any major...E-sports...etc.) and the community will stay the way it is right now...if your content with that...fine more power to you. More or less...wake up and understand that people in your community are trying to make the game something that will appeal to more then just people in it's community. We all like DOA for one reason or another...but by god I want to see the game mature and have the game be played on the same stage as well...a Capcom fighter(thats what you should strive for at least >_>) you can talk shit about how bad they are but if people play them and there is large communities for them....apparently they're doing something right.

anyways...thats my two cents...

:Edit: This maybe very SRK of me to ask but....Can we get Character Threads for the Demo Characters...because I mean...we got top players breaking it in...we should have outlets for them to post up their findings...gezz standard bnb's would be nice right about now so we can pretend we know how to maximize damage(as new stuff will always be found) and have it there for people who want to learn that character because chances are...out of the 4 characters on the demo...no one uses either of them so having a thread for them may help...

 

[Berzerk!]

Yes you're absolutely right. My bad, I failed to keep that in mind while responding. But I really hope they put our feedback to good use. Then again, while some of use share common ideas and agree upon certain things, there are many who also have different POV's. It scares me to think all of it might get skewed when they decide to review our input.

That's why I made the consolidated feedback thread, so the most clear and common feedback can be seen and it will help us to easily grab a good batch of ideas and submit them in a consistent format - but I think rightly the areas we quibble about and have differences on can still individually be fed back.

It's interesting if we look at what people most disagree on, is whether the game will be received well in its current state and the level of changes people feel it needs. But - when actual changes are suggested and discussed in context of what makes sense in Doa you get a surprising level of consensus. Look at the talk about holds and Wakeup kicks.
Pretty similar solutions are being suggested.
Some people may feel the change suggestions are required while others would take them as a bonus to a game already on the right track. But both camps would be happy with similar changes even if starting from different perspectives on how the game is now

 

[Berzerk!]

For anyone interested btw I may get a Doa demo tournament/exhibition going tomorrow on stream at this event www.couchwarriors.org

 

[Allan Paris]

For anyone interested btw I may get a Doa demo tournament/exhibition going tomorrow on stream at this event www.couchwarriors.org

Just run those casuals, and what time will this be?

 

[DR2K]

So are there any 2 or 3 in ones? Is there any priority on some moves? Really can't tell playing against the AI.

 

[DrDogg]

*More stuff that makes no sense*

Okay, I'm really sick of reading your posts because you completely miss the point almost every time. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Let's make this as easy as possible.

Please explain to me, in detail, how I'm playing the demo differently than you are. Explain to me how it is that I'm missing all of this wonderful stuff that you're seeing in the demo that I'm clearly not. Explain to me how I'm playing the demo like DOA4 and how I should change how I'm playing.

If you can do that, and make some sense out of it, then we'll be getting somewhere.

Even if the Capcom/Namco fans decide not to pay attention to it, I think the game will be cool and quite successful.

If the game is solid, I will play it. However, if only the DOA community is playing it, then the game will have the same competitive life as every other DOA game. The current DOA competitive community is not large enough to sustain regular tournaments.

Honestly, no matter how good the game is, if there's no competitive scene (or at least solid online, like SC5) I have no reason to play it. That's why I don't play VF and have no interest in KoF. I think VF is a great game and I was decent at VF5, but there was no scene for it, so after a month or two I stopped playing. KoF at MLG had 20 players and I don't have much faith in the competitive scene lasting past Evo, so I don't see any reason to learn the game.

That said, I feel that the greater FGC will give DOA enough of a competitive scene if the game is good. Will all Capcom/Namco players pick up the game? Probably not. But enough of them will play to give us 50-man tournaments and 100-man majors.

So are there any 2 or 3 in ones? Is there any priority on some moves? Really can't tell playing against the AI.

I did very limited testing (I don't see any reason to really break the game down right now), but it seems there's some sort of priority to the attacks. When I try to whiff punish a string, my attack gets beat out by the current attack in the opponent's string, even if it's whiffing.

It may be the same priority system of past DOA games, but I'm not going to figure it out at this point. I'll wait until I have a more complete build to play.

 

[Tones]

Me and nash are coming down to couchwarriors.

Just run those casuals, and what time will this be?

The event starts 12pm (in 4 hours) and ends late.

 

[Berzerk!]

Awesome andthen we'll def get some good matches in. Schedule is one he website if you scroll down, possibly casuals all day and definitely at the end of vf - 5-7pm. I guess that makes it 8hrs away. Soul CALIBUR first

 

[virtuaPAI]

Just as a reminder, that was in 3.1 as well and why they took it out of 4.1 due to it being what he was trying to 'clean up' for 4.0. It was just the clutter left over.

In 3.1 for example, Busa's 3PPP is 3i1 on crouching but the last two are a 2i1 on standing. It's the lifting stun on crouching that allows for it. Same for Gen Fu's P+KPP where the first hit would force them up to get hit by the high (2i1 standing, 3i1 crouching). It's another reason why you wouldn't low hold in 3.1

-These are things all characters must have in the final build of Doa5!

 

[DriftSlave]

Somethings for that should be added to the front page. Moves with stuns or launches.

last hit still stuns.
last hit knocks down/tracks.
short stun on last hit.
second hit launches(low launch).
last hit stuns/tracks.
last hit launches(low launch)/.*looks like *
last hit stuns/tracks. *looks like *
last hit still stuns.
animation looks like DOAD version, combo's well after Generator Danger Zone.
launches on hit, hits twice(low launch).
Limbo stuns on normal hit(not as long as before).
BT Stuns(returns to neutral).
BT Launches on normal hit(high Launch).
BT launches on normal hit(low Launch).
(VS middle punch) like you can combo after this.
(VS middle punches) looks like you can combo after it.
(VS middle kick) Launches very high, old () in past games.

 

[DrDogg]

What I'm hoping is that this game, with its VF guests, is but merely the first step towards a true DOA+VF collab orchestrated by AM2. Such a game may not be quite the "Fighters Megamix 2" I always wanted as a kid, but dammit, it'd be close enough! 8D

Why would I play Helena when I can just play Lei-Fei? Basically the same fighting style, but way more moves, way more options and an all around better character.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Somethings for that should be added to the front page. Moves with stuns or launches.

Thanks, updated.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I know there was some minor discussion in the thread regarding throw breaks. If you were TN and wanted to add multi-directional throw break, how would you implement a low throw break in DOA. Would it be Direction++ or Direction+++?

Why would I play Helena when I can just play Lei-Fei? Basically the same fighting style, but way more moves, way more options and an all around better character.

I'd pay money too see VF characters replacing some of them DOA characters, especially if Lei-Fei replaces Helena. That dude is like one of the most creative FG characters out there and he's really fun to play in casuals.

 

[Game Over]

KoF at MLG had 20 players and I don't have much faith in the competitive scene lasting past Evo, so I don't see any reason to learn the game.

Just to note (and I could be wrong) ... but NCR was the same weekend as MLG Colombus, also ran KoF, and I believe was said to have had ~60 entrants for it. So, it's arguable that quite a few more players would've shown at MLG if there wasn't that conflict.