Free Step Dodge

When 5 started he honestly was. He was a character with potential that TN attacked wrong. After 1.03, TN attacked correctly but also attacked incorrectly on what they did right (Wind Dash Kick launch properties taken for example). He became solid but you wouldn't know the struggle once again because you haven't walked side by side with this guy from his beginning to end.

So you're saying that yes, I am right that he was solid, but that I'm wrong just because I'm not a Hayate main?
Sounds like an ad hominem fallacy.

That's the premise I'll continue to walk on. It'd be one thing if you really sat there and broke these things down and then came to argue this but frankly, you're probably the least qualified out of the 3 of us (Zeo, You, and I) to take a side on Hayate.

That's not to say your not entitled to an opinion...

Hint: fallacies are bad in rhetoric because they don't attack a premise within the opposing argument.

28 out of 36 alerts come from one status. Impressive. -_-
Must be very interesting xD

it isn't

I don't know how to really word it without writting a book so I'll drop this: No, I myself have never considered Hayate to be "solid". Compared to the rest of the cast he was below average to me. As a character he felt under-developed.

Even now he seems that way but some things have been fixed.

I'm not saying you have to be a Hayate main to formulate an opinion but you obviously haven't broken down his abilities in great detail which most likely means just like in the past your formulated your opinion off of loses... probably online losses as well. How is that a viable opinion?

I rest my case. I'd be happy to run his moveset by you piece by piece helping you decipher every nook and cranny so that we'll both definitely be on the same page about the character before we start throwing around the terms "godlike"...

I have actually gone through every one of Hayate's moves in training, sans the raijin. Obviously I don't have the entirety of his ins-and-outs memorized, but if perfection is your standard than 0 people on Earth meet the criteria. The weaknesses you speak of like "his range game is vulnerable to tracking." WHO'S ISN'T?

He's missing a 9 frame jab, parries and some other things if you want to get minute. None of that takes away from him too much, however. He has good spacing, good mix up, good damage, good set-ups, good crushes. He has what he needs in basically every situation to pull through. I have no idea what "solid" is if it's not Hayate.

Vulnerable to stepping* and if you want to get technical, WR H+K for Ryu's isn't... but were not counting moves here. Also back in Vanilla, he wasn't one of those characters that didn't have to play the stun game. Now he doesn't get as much bang for his buck for actually takin the time to play it (with his highest damage combos being nerfed).

I'll see you on spacing and crushing, but his mix-up is mediocre. This is because of the hit properties. Chances are places where there's good mix-up, the 50/50 is knockdown vs sweep (66P~, 3H+KK, 4P~, 1P~ PP2K~. Aside from 66P~, none of these 50/50's end in Hayate putting the opponent into the air (and even then 66PK can be a hassle at times)

Other than that, he's still imperfect. No character needs to be perfect though. His point is to be the jack of all trades but master of none so that he can be played in a flexible manner but easily be pressure by what his opponent excels at. That doesn't make him godlike, it makes him good.

He'll never outspace Ayane or Ein (DOA4 Ein, because DOA5U Ein is trash).

He'll never out string Zack, Hitomi, Helena, or Ayane.

He'll never out pressure Rig or Sarah on frames.

He'll never out overtake a Bayman or Tina on throws, holds and offensive holds.

and He'll never outspeed Kasumi, Christie or Pai.

That's the concept that needs to be undestood.

First, I have to point out that Vanilla Hayate WAS garbage. The single worst character in the game. Period. 1.03 Hayate improved on more than they ruined. Only real thing they arguably "nerfed" was his wind dash K which is debatable.

I always believed that Hayate was meh in 1.03 and so did everyone else, they all changed their tune in Ultimate when he arguably got worse. But all it did was show me that 1.03 Hayate was actually pretty solid. In Ultimate his options after he lands a hit was nerfed across the board. 3PP setups into wind dash combos, 1P stun, etc etc.

What he gained in Ultimate was a risky teleport and an "arguable" P+K buff/nerf (depending on your opinion) more than anything. H+K looks like an amazing tool with the guaranteed BT combos but against good players who can slow escape (which is where characters matter most: high lvl play) the move is taken down to +7 and guarantees nothing. Nevermind the fact that it's holdable (which it wasn't in DOA3).

Hayate is still a balanced character and he looks great here because others were hit harder than him but I definitely don't think he'd Godlike. Mid sure, maybe upper mid. But Sarah, Christie, Helena, Ayane, Kasumi, Alpha,Jacky and Gen Fu are all better characters and there are arguements for characters like Akira, Lei Fang and Pai as well.

I got over 1P being changed and I tolerated 3PP being nerfed for two reasons.

1P's trip stun wasn't necessary in the first place as it was. Don't get me wrong, I liked the 1PP natural combo at the wall just as much as anyone else but the true issue lied with in how 1P behaves on NH as far as frames go... so I wasn't worried about 1P.