Free Step Dodge

3PP on the other hand I tolerated because of the nerfs to the SE system. It made 3PP, 8P more common... frankly though I don't know how much the SE has changed but I just know that certain things I could SE easily in Vanilla, I can't now. Assuming that's the issue with 3PP as well, it's more common that I'll land a launcher and even then, 3PP, 236P is there.

And on a last note, Ein isn't even a factor of conversation here. In fact, I think Ein is probably one of the weakest characters in the game. Low tier for sure and maybe even bottom 5. Kokoro, Jann Lee, Tina, Ein and Eliot are probably my current bottom 5 in this games early life. Maybe swap out Tina for another.

I consider P+K sort of a buff. I would've rather it have become a SD stun to use like JL's 1.03a H+K. I say this because I like seeing the move used honestly... but in the end it still upgrades Hayate's stun to launch damage and on top of that, with it being a bound/sitdown bounce, he can get an actual juggle off of it at all times.

How did JL drop to bottom...? But yea this game has fallen so out of whack for me. I'd rather reopen the DOA4 project that was worked on to make DOA4 solid... whatever though.

1P was never that great of a tool on NH for sure, but it gave him another option in stun and opened up specific situations, as you said particularly at the wall. As for 3PP I'm still annoyed by that, not only is 33K no longer guaranteed but if it does land, the combo is reduced to 8P > PP6PK instead of the wind dash combo which could be done to everyone except heavy weights.

Plus with the 270 health, It was a guaranteed 40% to anyone that didn't hold. And for those that DID hold, you could 41236F+P and get 40% anyway. It was just a really great tool. He got some nice flashy tricks in Ultimate, but at a higher level? I stand by Vanilla Hayate being a better character. He was less flashy, but more solid.

Just touching on a few things, Dragon Gunner is retardedly slow now, 6P is 12 frames now instead of 11, H+K looks like it was nerfed, AGAIN. Mid punch hold nerfed believe it or not. I don't know everything but I don't really consider Jann a factor anymore. I'm playing sloppy if I lose to him.

In a sense you're right. DOA5 Hayate excels in areas that DOA5U Hayate does not. These areas are the loss of guaranteed damage situations and also in the area of numbers as far as damage goes, and some juggles.

Here's the thing. 90% of the cast was hit the same way.

Now, that last sentence, I can't argue with. The fact that he wasn't hit "quite" as hard is probably one of the reasons people see him as better now. Where really most characters just got hit worse than he did.

It's hard to compare them though. I think DOA5U Hayate is in a better place as opposed to the Vanilla Hayate, but he's just not godlike.

Vanilla Hayate was a better character in a game where a lot of characters were better. 5U Hayate is still a good character where a lot of characters were watered down. He may be in a better place in the new game, but going from a more basic tool comparison, Vanilla Hayate was the better character. 5U Hayate is just a better character in 5U than Vanilla Hayate was in Vanilla.

"He'll never out___ so-and-so" is not a valid argument. obviously one character is not going to have everything better than everyone (let's forget about Alpha here). He has multiple strings that go with low-to-mid mix-ups that are +on NH. His 3H+K2K does track, 214PPP doesn't technically, but each move re-positions. throws have mysterious track properties.

in general vanilla was a lot more solid in the gameplay department than 5U or 4, both in regard to system mechanics and character balancing.

I guess. I mean when it comes down to it, Hayate got his damage dropped, his juggles dropped (again), his guaranteed hits dropped (again), and other small things taken...

But he was given good things but half of it comes from him just being in a different system that happens to cater to his needs. I'm sure some other characters get the same treatment.

Don't even start with me on 4. Hayate was far superior than most all characters in the respect to the mechanics of THAT game and also considering his damage output.

Hayate doesn't have low to mids outside of 1PP and that is very unsafe on block as is 3H+KKP or PP2KP which are all negative on block and a knockdown on hit which means Hayate has to deal with a wake up kick.

Read that wrong, I thought you were referring to DOA4 Hayate. I'll retract that first section of the last comment.

and I'll agree as far as balancing went, in some ways they were very on track but I do think Hayate got shafted for the most part. Ryu did too but compared to DOA4 Ryu, Ryu came out to be a LOT more solid in respects of his integration of his stance and his actual hit properties.

He wasn't even actually "good" in DOA4... he was just stupid hard to deal with because he had stupid crush properties and the izuna.

Ryu's ongyoin stance got better, but that came at the sacrifice of his normal stance. In DOA4, his regular tools were great (too great?) and he didn't need to enter ongyoin. It was actually best not to in almost every situation. Now, he's forced to use it as a mixup.

I'm gonna be frank: I don't think anyone at TN knows how to use Hayabusa properly. I think they just listen to Manny and do what "seems cool" at the time. The result is a clusterfuck where some things are way good and other things being just stupid.