3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold
- Thread starter MrMoon360
- Start date
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Did you just think this as you typed, or did you put thought into this?
Thought into it, it's a no brainer really, especially considering they're not getting rid of holding during stuns.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
-When yon say, "Just make the holds require very strict timing." What do you mean by that?
- When you say, "maybe make them a parry with followups you must do on your own." What do you mean, elaborate a little more on that, please.
- Put in more stuns from different moves that disallow countering and create some moves that can flat out not get countered
I get this as far as having a move or 2 that will go through holds. Now, it you have stuns from different moves that "disallow" holding after being hit by them. Why have moves that completely ignore holding? You would most likely get the stun before you pull off a move that will go through a hold. Also, stuns are not that hard to come by.
-What are you suggesting getting a meter added to?
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Well that's amazing that you got this from what he said.
Also, stop giving away answers. I want to know what he means. Unless you know this person well enough to fill in the gaps, then never mind.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
Apparently you don't watch enough basketball because if you did you'd know its not guaranteed. Hes got a high precentage in the paint but its not 100%.
Name me one athlete in basketball that can go 100% behind the arc, inside the 20 or on the free throw line. Skill gets you only so far, more often than not luck is part of the equation (Because if it wasn't then everyones shots would fall.)
Does it bother me that Calibur Bladez has my number? Yeah, but thats the reason why we play sets. Same as in almost every tier 1 sporting playoff - when it matters you play sets to make sure that you both know who the better team, or person, was. And in first to 5 and 7's DOA4 weeded out the sheep from the wolves everytime (Look at the tournament results from the "Big" events - Same fucking people winning.)
Like I've said, the damage on the counters is to high and the window is too long in DOA4 but I knew that coming in and a lot of people understand that but they still play it competitively. And don't ever get it twisted - the meaning of competition isn't showing up to offline tournaments, you can be a competitor online because playing the game that way is 50% mental.
Do NFL players complain when they have to go to Green Bay in December? Its fucking cold and it affects the game but you don't see guys in the press room saying "It was 30 degrees with a 10 degree wind chill. That game didn't count."
Its a logic party starrin me.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
My, no longer in production due to legal reasons and lack of interest from the rights holder, (pre-alpha build) game from back in 2008:
If you could retool that engine to work with the Xbox Avatar's you could have something potentially lucrative.
I mean what I say, make the timing window to do a hold very strict. The actual active frames at which a hold would grab you out of a move should be few, and holding should generally be something where you're actively thinking and trying to determine what move they do next and time your hold perfectly to get the counter off. Not something where you go "oh shit, I bet they'll toss a low kick gonna toss out a low counter and pray!" Basically make it something like a SF parry or Royal Guard in DMC, where you have to hit that the literal instant that move is gonna land. Anything before or after and you get hit.
As for the parry idea, it's like the guy said above, instead of the counters sending people flying into walls or whatever, have it where you deflect their attack, and at that point you have a chance to follow up with your own move, maybe even specific "counter moves", but generally something where you can still mess up, not hit counter and the game damages the person for you.
As far as that idea goes, my idea would be certain strong hitting attacks that either flat out hit the person regardless if they hold, or causes them to stumble a bit and opening them up for a possible combo/followup.
And as far as meter goes, it was more a whatif, like perhaps adding a meter system to the holds specifically, where each time you do one it drains the meter a bit, and the meter recharges overtime or based on how aggressive you are. That was more a last minute idea there, ideally my previous changes would make it so where you wouldn't really need a meter system. A meter system would be more inline with simply limiting the amount of counters you can throw out, by making them require much stricter timing and doing little to no damage, there'd be enough risk in there that you'd not need to limit them beyond that really.
I completely understood what he said. I'm kind of surprised you didn't.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
For the record, I wasn't trying to be an asshole to you, completely. I honestly did not pick up on some of your initial post. To me it seemed to be jumbled thoughts, a lot of it had to do with your wording on things. After this post I understand you better, thanks for your clarity. I agree with you on the stricter timing for holds by reducing the active frames of them and making them weaker.
Moves that will go through holds, I get that idea, that has been mentioned for a long time now. Moves like that don't sound bad at all. However, when you suggested "more stuns from different moves" that gave the same effect of the unholdable move(s) after you being hit by them, to me it made the unholdable move(s) redundant. When you rephrased the idea, now, it makes sense.
The meter thing is where I was more-so being an asshole to you. I figured you meant adding a meter to the holds, as they are now that is very understandable. Although that is not the route I would go with dealing with them, just take them out of stuns.
The parry comment was answered before you got to it, I understand you. Still, do you think in the end that your parry idea would be just as abusive as the hold? You get a parry and yeah you said you can mess up your attack but with better players "messing up" won't happen much. So now you'd have parry, (launch?) BnB combos, which will send players flying all over the place for environment control, pretty much all the time. Or do you have a way with your idea to avoid that? If this is just a rough idea that you threw out, ok, I dig that.
All in all, I am just picking your brain. After your post I see you know exactly what you mean, and I respect that. Please don't take that in a condescending tone, some people here tend to do that with comments. Just casual conversation, nice to meet you, Blam.
Some of the info wasn't all that clear to me, grap3.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
To reiterate the reasons put in the consolidated feedback thread for 4-point holds:
4 point creates greater certainty and clarity of move selection for an attacker as mid level punches and kicks can be countered "by accident" more than highs and lows.
Mid-height mixups require a little more thought on the part of the defender, since switching to highs gets ducked by low counter, and lows are beaten by it. You need to mix up mid punch and mid kick at times in DOA and it improves the attackers ability to pressure if the defender needs to decide between P or K countering at this height level.
Beyond that, you don't need to split the counters out any more because the height system serves up enough choices.
You can also go with the suggestion to remove holds from critical state, but you could have both and it would be a very tight system.
4 point creates greater certainty and clarity of move selection for an attacker as mid level punches and kicks can be countered "by accident" more than highs and lows.
Mid-height mixups require a little more thought on the part of the defender, since switching to highs gets ducked by low counter, and lows are beaten by it. You need to mix up mid punch and mid kick at times in DOA and it improves the attackers ability to pressure if the defender needs to decide between P or K countering at this height level.
Beyond that, you don't need to split the counters out any more because the height system serves up enough choices.
You can also go with the suggestion to remove holds from critical state, but you could have both and it would be a very tight system.
I've said before and I'll say it again, 3 vs 4 isn't the problem. The hold itself is flawed and fixing it should be Team Ninja's #1 priority. If you simply add 4-point hold to the DOA5 demo we have, the game suddenly doesn't become competitive.
I'm not being a jerk, quite the opposite. I was just honestly surprised since I'm pretty sure you know more about the game than me.
I personally dont think holding mid stun is the problem ... maybe if they added a bit more recovery to it that would make everyone happy ..
but ill say this again ...
3 point + advanced mids is quite a nice system ... and I like it ...
especially with the current flow of the game (garanteed environmental hits and more emphasis on high/low mixups)
but ill say this again ...
3 point + advanced mids is quite a nice system ... and I like it ...
especially with the current flow of the game (garanteed environmental hits and more emphasis on high/low mixups)
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
One of Cyber's counter Izuna's did more damage than my most damaging high-counter throw from hayate last night.
This is DOA 5. Yes, thats a problem. A big one.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
lol, no i know you weren't being a jerk. i was just saying i really didn't pick up on some of his ideas.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
But you've made it clear that you LIKE the guessing. So... yeah.
Honestly, even if holds inflict no damage at all, if you can still hold out of the stun, the game will have a hard time having a decent competitive life.
- Player 1 hits Player 2, putting them in a stun.
- Player 1 goes for a launch or attempts to extend the stun.
- Player 2 successfully holds. No damage is done, but positions are now reset (or we'll even say P1 has adv).
- Player 1 tries again, and connects with another attack, causing a stun.
- Player 1 goes for a launch or attempts to extend the stun.
- Player 2 successfully holds. No damage is done, but positions are now reset (or we'll even say P1 has adv).
See how this is looking? Granted, it wouldn't be like this every time, because people will guess wrong and the attacking player will get a launch. But it will happen enough to where games will take forever, and once again, the offensive player is forced to guess.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
This is one of those few times I'm glad I play an offensive hold monkey. Slow startup but so easy to catch people coming out of stun whether they hold or not. If they turn my stuff into legit catch throws, even better.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
This shit is terrible.
izuna holds were always crazy damaging ..then again you need to consider that its now an advanced hold .. (although i do think the damage on it could use a lil tone down on those particular holds for hayabusa .. but then again its hayabusa ... ) .. plus the fact that he got you in counter timing ... it wold have been worse on high counter ...
have you tried hayates izuna like combo throw on counter? or even high counter since that would be more likely .. into a wall ? and then go for a follow up ? see situations like that are alot more common in doa5 because of the narrower stages ...
i still dont find this a major issue ...
heres a fix ...
during stun ...
- add recovery to holds
- eliminate counter/high counter possibility and just give the regular hold damage ...