6++ Gameplay Overhaul
- Thread starter Rev_an
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Rev_an
Active Member
not only max damage it was also almost always the max wall- carry and then on top of that it also almost always worked at the wall as well as in open space. that's a recipe for disaster
But should it have been a universal mechanic? juggle bound close hits take quite a lot of time and while we want to have some opportunity to show off, fighting games are way more interesting when both players can do something, that's part of what makes critical holds good game design and it's why long cinematic supers are bad.
hayate bt 7k is used on some breakable object combos in vanilla, i can't speak to ++.
as alluded to before, i question the formula itself. there's no getting around some commonalities of play but stun launch close hit bound really homogenizes play between characters (fatal rush also did this to some extent) more than how things were in previous games.
i'm also wary of everyone having lots of wall carry. wall situations are more limiting than neutral in open space and it's certainly possible to be at the wall too much (says the ayane player, but if I can make the system changes i want to make she'd have a different max damage bound ender with much less wall carry)
I can indeed, please feel free to suggest some. i'm trying to avoid very scooping juggles which is why I rejected crapo's initial suggestion of p+k p for kasumi and went with see the patchnotes for U1 soon.
for people suggesting new juggle bounds it would be very helpful to people giving second opinions if you also tell me:
how the new bound would co-exist with the old one
that the new one isn't a new best route that people would do instead of all the other juggles
what problem the character was struggling with (weight class, launcher into backturned, not enough wall carry*, etc) that you're trying to solve
when you would use the other old options on the associated launchers -- especially that every viable launcher isn't now doing a bound juggle
that the movie isn't too long for p2 relative to the other juggles
whether I can take out the old bound, especially if it's enterable from a relatively low floating height or you're suggesting more than one new one.
and if the close-hit is still close hitting, that it's worth reducing the diversity
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I'll probably eventually look at fatal rush (once side step has the immunity turned down a bit i'll look at 5S for bad trackers) but all those workload things i said before still apply. It's more useful for me and more likely for you to get what you're after (or easier for us to discuss alternatives) if you include the associated launchers in these discussions.
this is pretty fair evaluation, i've heard "they're trying to make it like X older game" for a few different values of "old game" and yeah, to some extent, if you decide, as I did, that the meter mechanics aren't salvageable whether that's because they're always garbage in every (modern) 3D fighter or because we don't have the mod tools to make the changes to the system you'd like to make (more varied costs, gain rate in the four different ways you can get meter) then what you're left with is the triangle system, mostly universal bound juggles, an escalation of stage bullshit, and the "stun or alive" version of the stun system introduced and refined 2-3 times since doa 4.
that's going to look a lot like doa 4, dimensions, and 5 (and if i get free-step dialed in, a bit more like 3) because DOA is the triangle system yomi game at its core. We know that game is good because we have at least two examples of it and over a decade of discussion about how doa 4 could've been much much better.
perhaps i need to look at 4-way strike mixups or make jabs not be +30 in stun, but to some extent being in stun and having to guess is the point of the game. It can certainly be too far one way or the other but there are levers we can pull without getting the crutches back out. Rob did pretty good in his latest comment, walking on eggshells is a pretty wild way to describe yomi though. Changing stuns on-hit or stun into re-stun is on the table like the change to kasumi 6pk, i was even about to universalize it but i had some issues with workflow and tester time so I decided not to commit to it blindly.
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@Rob no i didn't nerf close hit damage. TN might've between games but it's still 1.5x like vanilla. The thing i want to do is make which bound ender i'm using to be a choice between damage and wall carry which mostly is not the case at the moment.
Walking on eggshells when the stun game begins. That is the core problem of DOA.
If I land an attack on an opponent and it is not blocked, I, the attacker, am immediately placed into a guessing situation in order to press my advantage. You can't just follow up with a dial-a-combo with no interruption. Offense is more stilted and hesitant. I simply can get fucked because I guessed wrong on my next attack.
And I get punished for that? Why should that be? Everything that happens before getting that hit is precipitated by a series of decisions, often committal ones, and holds "cheapen" those decisions. I personally prefer the bulk of decisions being made before/after the opening, and the combos are a "matter of course". I'd rather have richer defensive options to avoid being hit in the first place, than a mechanic that introduces randomness to the game as "defense". And unfortunately, holding in critical status IS a core mechanic.
As you know, a huge part of DOA is about reading your opponent's mind correctly. What will he do next? Is he going for a slow attack from a far? Try a mid-launcher? A throw? A fast attack up close? Etc. You need to be aware and recognize your opponent’s behaviors, and the awareness of the choices your opponent possesses at that time and what the outcomes can be. This is skill that can be developed, not some innate ability.
Obviously, this can be applied when you have someone in stun right? Does this player have a tendency to low hold after the first strike? Is this player mashing out holds hoping by luck one of them will connect? Or won't hold at all depending on his healthbar? Etc. The issue here is sometimes you have to be random when holding in stun (otherwise if you develop a hold pattern, you are going to get thrown), and that randomness just makes continuing your offense all the riskier, especially when doing holds still doesn't have enough cost outside of the threat of a HiC throw punish. There's too much yomi in this element of DOA and it has too much influence on the outcome of a match. It's not always the case the more skilled player wins.
Something's gotta change with the hold/stun system. Not expecting you or anyone here to do it. Although reducing the amount of damage output connecting a hold in stun was a huge improvement to DOA overall.
It is interesting how people who hate break holds say it's a "get out of jail card". What do you think normal holds are then? Lol. Funny how there is a reason no one uses 3 way holds. Imagine that.
Again, this is all from the perspective of the attacker. I could give two fucks what happens to the guy who gets stunned, he can get fucked for all I care lmao.
If I land an attack on an opponent and it is not blocked, I, the attacker, am immediately placed into a guessing situation in order to press my advantage. You can't just follow up with a dial-a-combo with no interruption. Offense is more stilted and hesitant. I simply can get fucked because I guessed wrong on my next attack.
And I get punished for that? Why should that be? Everything that happens before getting that hit is precipitated by a series of decisions, often committal ones, and holds "cheapen" those decisions. I personally prefer the bulk of decisions being made before/after the opening, and the combos are a "matter of course". I'd rather have richer defensive options to avoid being hit in the first place, than a mechanic that introduces randomness to the game as "defense". And unfortunately, holding in critical status IS a core mechanic.
As you know, a huge part of DOA is about reading your opponent's mind correctly. What will he do next? Is he going for a slow attack from a far? Try a mid-launcher? A throw? A fast attack up close? Etc. You need to be aware and recognize your opponent’s behaviors, and the awareness of the choices your opponent possesses at that time and what the outcomes can be. This is skill that can be developed, not some innate ability.
Obviously, this can be applied when you have someone in stun right? Does this player have a tendency to low hold after the first strike? Is this player mashing out holds hoping by luck one of them will connect? Or won't hold at all depending on his healthbar? Etc. The issue here is sometimes you have to be random when holding in stun (otherwise if you develop a hold pattern, you are going to get thrown), and that randomness just makes continuing your offense all the riskier, especially when doing holds still doesn't have enough cost outside of the threat of a HiC throw punish. There's too much yomi in this element of DOA and it has too much influence on the outcome of a match. It's not always the case the more skilled player wins.
Something's gotta change with the hold/stun system. Not expecting you or anyone here to do it. Although reducing the amount of damage output connecting a hold in stun was a huge improvement to DOA overall.
It is interesting how people who hate break holds say it's a "get out of jail card". What do you think normal holds are then? Lol. Funny how there is a reason no one uses 3 way holds. Imagine that.
Again, this is all from the perspective of the attacker. I could give two fucks what happens to the guy who gets stunned, he can get fucked for all I care lmao.
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Well of course its a get out of jail free card, it covers all 4 hold options automatically, and its startup is very fast.
There are some strings and setups that can't be held, every character has them. And depending on the match up, you should be trying to launch characters based on weight class at certain stun thresholds to optimize damage. You can also do setups where you can bait holds by delaying or canceling strings, or going into mixups where a string can start high high and and in high mid or low.
If someone just tries to do holds all day, then a player will just throw them more often, and get the bonus damage.
There are also meaty attacks and setups that can hit players faster than their hold startup, even if they guessed correctly.
If you don't like the triangle system thats fine, go play tekken or something.
Rev_an
Active Member
my changes made it more likely for the better player to win lol. i don't know what to tell you. You had one good comment and now you're back all but saying you don't want to play DOA and that's totally fine but stop talking to DOA players about DOA then. read a book. get a dog and build it a house idk.
Lol I still enjoy the games despite the flaws. I don't see what's wrong talking with other DOA players about this stuff. We all have our gripes and issues with the games (that's pretty obvious with what the mod has changed). There's definitely room for improvement. None of my criticisms are new either. Anyway, it's irrelevant to this thread, but I just wanted to clarify my position a bit.
But yeah, it's good you are trying to make the game more competitive, where the chances of the better player wins improve.
In all fairness, I do think there is something to appreciate with what you are doing on some level, and I think your heart is in the right place. But I just have serious doubts anyone can make DOA6 a better game. It's unsalvageable IMHO. Look at wazaaa's thread. After reading that my only conclusion is just scrap everything and start a new game from scratch lol. I can't find any redeeming qualities about it that merit the effort. Obviously you feel different and that's cool. I think you're insane to waste your time on it but I've already said my piece lol.
But yeah, it's good you are trying to make the game more competitive, where the chances of the better player wins improve.
In all fairness, I do think there is something to appreciate with what you are doing on some level, and I think your heart is in the right place. But I just have serious doubts anyone can make DOA6 a better game. It's unsalvageable IMHO. Look at wazaaa's thread. After reading that my only conclusion is just scrap everything and start a new game from scratch lol. I can't find any redeeming qualities about it that merit the effort. Obviously you feel different and that's cool. I think you're insane to waste your time on it but I've already said my piece lol.
Rev_an
Active Member
the best i can possibly do is a diminished version of 5 or 3 because of the stages, roster, and crap like sidewalls activating dangerzones, and i'm fine with that. There's still a passable doa game in there somewhere, we caught fleeting glimpses of it in the times where both players were below half meter and some of the stage garbage was already spent.
New update for DOA6 ++ coming out soon. Should be interesting.
Rev_an
Active Member
yeah i gotta fix fixed a hurtbox on zack's ducking 6p stun on counter-hit (but not any of the other kinds of hit) and then it's all administrative stuff. I'll say saturday probably.
jfc when's the last time software development was ahead of schedule anywhere on earth?
jfc when's the last time software development was ahead of schedule anywhere on earth?
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Teh69thSpartan
New Member
Make a unbalanced version and i'll play it
Malfury
Active Member
I'll take both
Rev_an
Active Member
i gotta ask somebody to lock this one i guess.
new thread for the updated version: https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/6-gameplay-overhaul-update-1.9160/
new thread for the updated version: https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/6-gameplay-overhaul-update-1.9160/