About morons online

Sam Sultan

Active Member
Sam:

Since low counters avoid grabs and high attacks(even tough it does leave the defender in disadvantage an if the defender decides to attack after evading high attacks or grabs after a low counter the attacker gets a free guaranteed hit on the defender with any move as fast as 15 frames)

As you can see i'm saying here that if the defender decides to attack that's when the attacker has advantage. However the defender can decide to block in which case the attacker well be able to put further pressure on the defender or simply grab the defender. You can see this for your self in training mode.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
I don't feel insulted in anyway i'm happy DrDogg linked the thread because it made me realize that my statement "An attacker has always 75% of winning the guessing game" was wrong since indeed low counters avoid high attacks and grabs and i forgot to take that in to consideration.
Just to make this clear i'm not trying to attack or offend anybody here just giving my opinion and i know this is totally off-topic but i'm gonna post this here and see what happens.
Rikuto:
4 point.

Three options can be cycled between to avoid everything you are doing, therefore on every guess you have a 2/3 chance of guessing correctly on attack.

2/3*2/3*2/3 = 8/27 or 29.6%

This means you, as the attacker, only have approximately a 30% chance of finishing your combo even if you are determined to strike as randomly as possible and your opponent is determined to hold without any clue of where you will be attacking. These are the actual odds.

Sam:
These odds or not correct since an attacker has not 3 options but 4.
Attacker's options: High attacks, mid-p, mid-k, low attacks, grabs and low grabs (6 options).
(Countering)Defender's options: High counter, low counter, mid-p counter and mid-k counter(4 options) This makes the odds for a successful counter 1on 4(25%)
Since low counters avoid grabs and high attacks(even tough it does leave the defender in disadvantage an if the defender decides to attack after evading high attacks or grabs after a low counter the attacker gets a free guaranteed hit on the defender with any move as fast as 15 frames) and counter low attacks these options can be seen as one option for the attacker and thus leaving the attacker with 4 options and thus the odds for a successful hit 3 on 4(75%). So basically the attacker has 75%(3/4) chance landing a hit and not 66.6%(2/3). This would make the above calculations for the first successful hit 3/4 = 75% for the second successful hit (3/4)^2 = 56.3% and for a 3rd successful hit (3/4)^3 = 27/64 = 42.2%. Now what does this mean, this only means that if you where to attack an randomly countering opponent you would most likely land the first hit and you would probably also land the 2nd hit but you are probably not gonna land the 3rd hit(Keep in mind that these are probabilities and thus not 100% facts also these are only valid when we are talking about a non crouching, totally random countering opponent). So if you launch the opponent after the first hit or even launch them right away you would probably be fine against a randomly countering opponent.
Now let's take a look at a defending opponent's likelihood to successfully counter your an attackers moves.
The probability of an defender to counter the attacker is 1 on 4 = 25%. It is not necessary to talk about what the odds are for a defender to counter the whole string since after on successful counter the whole situation is reset. But for those who are interested:
To counter the first and 2nd hit it's (1/4)^2 = 1/16(6.3%), to counter the first 2nd and 3rd hit it's (1/4)^3 = (1.6%)
There are also other miscalculations in Rikuto's thread but i'm not gonna correct them all in this thread. This is just to show you that an attacking opponent has advantage over an defending opponent in any situation.

If you think that i'm not correct or i made a miscalculation(although it's elementary mathematics) or whatever please respond with a clear description of what i did wrong or why you disagree with me TNX.
High holds will stop high kicks and high punches

Mid punch hold will stop mid punch

Mid kick hold stops mid kick

Low hold stops all highs and all lows.

Your probability of guessing out of stun with a low hold is the highest, and your probability of guessing mids is the smallest. Smart players are going to do mids until you hold one, then switch to the other mid or throw. Essentially it's a 50/50. You can stray from that, but then you skew your odds.

It's a tighter than it was in DOA4 because holds have a little more recovery, but it still applies in most (too many) situations.
 

shunwong

Active Member
Smart players are going to do mids until you hold one, then switch to the other mid or throw. Essentially it's a 50/50. You can stray from that, but then you skew your odds.

I'd say this is the main mindgame in both DOA and VF. Mid or throw. Highs and lows can be crushed, mids are always going to be the best option. Then again, there are characters that defy such logic...
 

HiguraShiki

Active Member
High holds will stop high kicks and high punches

Mid punch hold will stop mid punch

Mid kick hold stops mid kick

Low hold stops all highs and all lows.

Your probability of guessing out of stun with a low hold is the highest, and your probability of guessing mids is the smallest. Smart players are going to do mids until you hold one, then switch to the other mid or throw. Essentially it's a 50/50. You can stray from that, but then you skew your odds.

It's a tighter than it was in DOA4 because holds have a little more recovery, but it still applies in most (too many) situations.
Don't forget to add the fact that low holding also avoids throws. Essentially low holding stops almost every option you have except mids and a low throw, if you can actually see it coming.
 

ILYA✰

Active Member
I hate it when someone low holds in order to escape my Christie's pressure game...
Then again, I should come up with something good in order to screw them up.. Usually mid kick launch does the trick ;)
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
-Yay critical bursts! too bad a majority of the cast has to guess 4 times to utilize it making them worthless
You people should stop basing things on normal hit. In fights pretty much everything will hit as a counter hit, greatly reducing the amount of times you have to guess before getting a respectable launcher or a burst.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
You people should stop basing things on normal hit. In fights pretty much everything will hit as a counter hit, greatly reducing the amount of times you have to guess before getting a respectable launcher or a burst.

It's still 3-4 guesses even on counter hit.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
You people should stop basing things on normal hit. In fights pretty much everything will hit as a counter hit, greatly reducing the amount of times you have to guess before getting a respectable launcher or a burst.

CB in this game is useless as an unholdable stun. Counter-hit, normal hit, doesn't matter. All it does is give you one extra hit in a combo.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Way to make shit up lol.

For those who don't know me, allow me to clarify, rather than having to rely on posts like the above skewing things.

1) I don't combo/juggle/do guaranteed damage, because I like the challenge of working for each hit. Hence my playstyle of focusing on single strikes, grapples, and holds. I'm perfectly aware and capable of performing them, I just don't, as its not my playstyle.
2) I don't care if I win or lose, so long as I get to play.
3) I do consider guaranteed damage to be cheap, which is a viewpoint that comes from working for each hit for so long. Not cheap as in "broken" but cheap as in "requires a lot less effort". Which is the entire point of guaranteed damage, so its not like i'm wrong on that.
4) I find guaranteed damage boring, because I/the opponent don't get to play or fight back during those moments, and it doesn't help that they don't even look cool.
5) I do have a bad habit of venting when a) people try to talk crap after getting a win, and b) When I'm frustrated due to boredom resulting from like...7 opponents in a row all doing the exact same pattern.
6) I don't care about competitive play, this is true. Mostly because the community sucks. I'll get competitive as hell with friends, lol.
7) I don't talk down to people (Though I do constantly get talked down to for not doing/endorsing guaranteed damage, go figure...)
8) I've never brushed someone off as a fool (that's your schtick, not mine), all I've done is suggest more fundamental alternatives. Like when someone is having troubled doing a combo, I suggest a different strategy. As for that sonya, way back when, that was me not saying not to learn combos, but not to be a copycat. Lack of variety is a big issue with online.
9) Its not that I don't believe DOA should be competitive, its that unless the competitive community stops acting like self entitled shits, theres no POINT. Like I had no issue with the actual gameplay changes in DOA5 (I can adapt just fine), I just dreaded the type of people it would bring in. People who throw tantrums when rushdown doesn't work, claim you suck for countering them when they just do one thing over and over, etc. Aka, the competitive community (which came to be true.)

Its funny. I get accused of saying everyone has to play by MY rules (which has never happened), and yet I'm constantly getting harassed for not playing by yours. Oh, the irony.
If you're not going for guaranteed damage, you're playing more random. The result isn't even educated guessing, it's just random guessing. You can have your opinion of what's fun, but I don't see the logic in making the game harder for yourself.

You're also going completely against how the game was designed to play. By that logic, you don't actually "like" the game for what it is, so why play?

The only real reason to attempt a CB is so you can get a free powerblow in.
That's not true, you still get more damage. I think his point was it would almost be the exact same thing if they gave us the same launch height for one less hit, a launch would be more or less the same thing. The only thing that could be argued is the random factor of having multiple launches over one CB. Though the attacker has advantage because they'd have more options, assuming they had 2 types of mid launches.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Jann Lee still only gets one free hit off of a CB, unless I'm missing something.

He has two stuns that guarantee a CB and plays closest to the E3 build. Still same guesswork applies, but my post was more of a joke/slam towards DoA5's horrible character tool set balance.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Considering that he gets a guaranteed CB from H+K, it's like he has 2 CB's because H+K guarantees 2 hits. :p
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I hate it when someone low holds in order to escape my Christie's pressure game...
Then again, I should come up with something good in order to screw them up.. Usually mid kick launch does the trick ;)

Just low throw someone who uses low holds to escape stun. If they don't adjust to not doing it, then it's free damage for you anyway.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Just low throw someone who uses low holds to escape stun. If they don't adjust to not doing it, then it's free damage for you anyway.
I'd opt for mid attacks myself. I guess it depends what your low throw offers, but if you throw low and they hold mid you're not gonna have fun. Best to keep the random down in my opinion.
 

HiguraShiki

Active Member
Just low throw someone who uses low holds to escape stun. If they don't adjust to not doing it, then it's free damage for you anyway.
The problem is, by the time I realized they low held and I opt for a low throw, they end up recovering, since the recovery of a low throw is fast. You're better off choosing either mid p or mid k
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'd opt for mid attacks myself. I guess it depends what your low throw offers, but if you throw low and they hold mid you're not gonna have fun. Best to keep the random down in my opinion.

I opt for mid launchers with Ayane myself at this point. However, if I "see" you low holding before I actually press a button. I'm going to low throw you for doing that. And I'll keep doing it when I see it until you realize it's not working against me. Once you stop throwing out low holds, I'm going to start throwing you with 64H+P to keep things further in my favor.

Until someone actually stops pre-emptively mashing things out just for the sake of mashing things out. I'm not going to stop punishing it until they decide to stop giving me free damage.
 
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