Alternative counter system in DoA?

[Dutch Samurai]

Except for in this case, they changed it so much for the worse now the game is ridiculed by others and a lot of people stay away from it. At least in the US that is. There are us who play the game and enjoy it regardless of how the system is, but that isn't getting others playing the game. And that's the one thing we want for this game and this series. To get the same respect that other fighters get.

If you ask anyone else here in the US who doesn't play DOA why they don't, they'll pretty much give you the very same reasons Grap3 gave. And I pretty much agree with Grap3 on this one.

I get that. I agree with the majority of his post which is why I only quoted and responded to that part of his post. But my point is that I don't think some of the type of gameplay that DoA1 has is going to pass in a modern fighter, such as the 2 point parry. Having played the game, that aspect looks really dated.

Believe me, I know full-well the reputation DoA has with the rest if the FGC. Things are still going to have to change if we want to win over more players and gain the respect that we believe the series deserves.

 

[Dutch Samurai]

You know, I was talking to Alex Donalds about this very thing on Facebook. I guess here's a great place to share my idea.

So first the premise for my idea. One concern of people who don't play DOA is the fact that you can hold out of stun. I personally never liked the idea. The person going on offense shouldn't be worrying about going on offense. If a defender is getting stunned, it was his own damn fault for getting stunned. If Team Ninja decides to never get rid of the stun system, then some changes seriously need to be made.

1. Holding when not in stun will damage your opponent (using both 3 point holds and 6 point holds)
2. If you hold out of stun and land a successful hold, it will not damage the attacker and will only disrupt the flow like maybe push him back but not damage him. The attacker should not be penalized for going on the offense after landing a successful stun. And he should not have to be afraid to go on the offense.
3. This is where 6 point holds come in. If you want to disrupt the flow of attack, then it will be a 3pt hold that will do no damage to the attacker. If you want to damage the opponent by holding out of a stun, it must be an advanced hold motion type of hold. This means everyone would have a 6 point hold. This means you have to be EXACT if you want to dish damage to your opponent if you're stunned. No random guessing and getting a lucky hold.
4. Return to be like older DOAs. One stun for max height launch. If you get stunned, you get ONE chance to hold out of it otherwise you're going up. There needs to be less emphasis on the stun system.

When I told my friend this who plays Tekken, he actually liked the idea and if a system like this were implemented, he would actually give DOA shot.


Summary:
Not in stun / 3 point or 6 point holds will damage

In stun / 3 point stun would disrupt flow of attacker but net you no damage. 6 point hold would allow you to damage the opponent when holding while stunned.

Nightpup actually suggested something similar. A non damaging parry that's possible to pull off in stun that is a purely defensive maneuver. You expounded on the idea, which I like. Definitely seem like viable options for future installments, if executed in the right way.

 

[X51]

Everybody wants to remove randomness/guessing but I hate more flying hits that follow and strikes that start with almost the very same animation but sometimes is a kick, sometimes a punch, sometimes... I won't mind a "tekkened" DoA but I prefer randomness while a "human being" is available to track a sidestep/sidewalk while in the air like a bird. If you wanna go "serious", then give me a fighting game that feels natural and logical.

 

[Blackula]

Everybody wants to remove randomness/guessing but I hate more flying hits that follow and strikes that start with almost the very same animation but sometimes is a kick, sometimes a punch, sometimes... I won't mind a "tekkened" DoA but I prefer randomness while a "human being" is available to track a sidestep/sidewalk while in the air like a bird. If you wanna go "serious", then give me a fighting game that feels natural and logical.

Trust me, you don't want DOA "Tekkened". A lot of things they've been doing to that series make absolutely no sense when it comes to the fighting engine.

 

[d3v]

Meter??? Trololo???

I am pretty serious about this. Meter means that there's a hard limit on how many times someone can hold. This also means that someone needs to think twice about whether or not they should hold out of a combo.

 

[Blackula]

I am pretty serious about this. Meter means that there's a hard limit on how many times someone can hold. This also means that someone needs to think twice about whether or not they should hold out of a combo.

I definitely don't want to see this game get the Soul Calibur 5 treatment. I thought them adding a meter gauge to the system was one of the stupidest things they ever did to that series. Oh yeah, that and you lose life for breaking a throw. No one knows the pain of losing a match that way like Black Mamba considering it happened during a Grand Finals, lol.

 

[d3v]

Trust me, you don't want DOA "Tekkened". A lot of things they've been doing to that series make absolutely no sense when it comes to the fighting engine.

You have to consider however that Tekken plays the way it does because, for the most part, it's how the players want it to play.

I definitely don't want to see this game get the Soul Calibur 5 treatment. I thought them adding a meter gauge to the system was one of the stupidest things they ever did to that series. Oh yeah, that and you lose life for breaking a throw. No one knows the pain of losing a match that way like Black Mamba considering it happened during a Grand Finals, lol.

I actually love both additions. Meter adds another layer of depth for both attacker and defender. Throw breaks only nullifying some damage works fine in a game it's easier to break them (compared to say, DOA5). It basically turns it into Super turbo style throw softening.

 

[Dutch Samurai]

You have to consider however that Tekken plays the way it does because, for the most part, it's how the players want it to play.

Possibly. Let me repeat that, but from a Tekken player's perspective;

You have to consider however that Dead or Alive plays the way it does because, for the most part, it's how the players want it to play.

Does the statement still stand? Yes and no.

Obviously, we like playing DoA, otherwise we woudn't be here. And, we, more or less, like the way it plays, as level and character design only go so far in contributing to our overall enjoyment of a game. And story... Well not wanting to start an argument, we all know about DoA's storyline, and whether or not it adds to the game. But the main thing that keeps us playing is the gameplay.

That said, are we all completely satisfied with Dead or Alive's gameplay? No. Otherwise, we wouldn't be giving suggestions on how to improve it (whether for our own benefit or the benefit of others). We wouldn't be talking about how patches improved this but made that worse. Some of us wouldn't be getting into heated arguments when another person's thoughts on the matter conflict with our own.

I'm sure the Tekken forums have people who, like us, are not 100% content with their game's gameplay as well.

 

[Blackula]

I'm sure the Tekken forums have people who, like us, are not 100% content with their game's gameplay as well.

I was just about to mention this, but you beat me to it. All you have to do is join the Facebook Group "Kor's Tekken Academy" to see those discussions in action. Tekken has some serious problems. The only ones who seem to be truly happy with the game are the newer players, but the older players who have been playing through the entire series and have been able to see the game develop over time, many of them have some serious gripes with the current system. And these gripes didn't just come from TTT2. Some of these gripes have been expressed since 5.0.

So again I say, you definitely don't want this game "Tekkened" when DOA has its own set of issues that it needs to work out. No need adding Tekkenish issues on top of those.

 

[Project Bokuho]

All i wish for at the moment:
- People shouldn't be able to counter while stunned.

 

[dawnbringer]

All i wish for at the moment:
- People shouldn't be able to counter while stunned.

You need to add something like “revamp stun extension rules” to keep damage potential of stuns sensible.

 

[JannLeeVsLaw]

I also like the "parry while in stun" suggestion, but I personally wouldn't change anything else. It is a defensive option and seems more realistic than being able to dish out damage while you're collapsing to the floor.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I like the idea of parrying out of Critical stun. This force players to pay attention to the defensive hold(DH) he/she utilizes due to zero damage output, while facing heavy throw punishment. Normal DH = disadvantage, Counter DH = neutral, and High Counter DH = advantage.

 

[SchwarzPhy]

How about this:

• allow the max launch after a launcher at any point during stun
• allow critical bursts at any point during a stun
• decrease the stun threshold from 28 to around 20
• decrease the damage modifier in stun to 40%
• increase the damage modifier in the air from 40% to 50 or 60%

That way you can minimize the guessing game by launching early or go deep into stuns with more risk in order to get more damage.

 

[Project Bokuho]

How about this:

• allow the max launch after a launcher at any point during stun
• allow critical bursts at any point during a stun
• decrease the stun threshold from 28 to around 20
• decrease the damage modifier in stun to 40%
• increase the damage modifier in the air from 40% to 50 or 60%

That way you can minimize the guessing game by launching early or go deep into stuns with more risk in order to get more damage.

 

[Nightpup]

I disagree with allowing Critical Bursts at anytime during stun. That defeats the purpose of what a Critical Burst is meant to do: Burst past the stun threshold so you can get one last hit in.

 

[SchwarzPhy]

I see the critical burst as a way of guaranteeing a launcher. That's essentially all it does, some extra damage and gives a guaranteed hit. I'm just throwing out ideas to see what people more experienced than me think.

 

[Blackula]

They should just get rid of the critical burst. All it does is emphasize playing the stun game. If they make unholdable stuns inescapable, ala NO slow escaping them, then there is no need for the critical burst. Remember, we want LESS emphasis on the stun game.

I do agree with max launch after landing one successful stun. That is how everything pre DOA4 was.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Actually you didnt get max launch, you got a counter hit launch during stun. This made sense since the majority of the stuns were on counter hit.

 

[FakeSypha]

They should go for a more 'conventional' stun system, for starters. The way stun works in DOA may be considered unique and all that stuff. However, going from VF to play some DOA makes it look... weird. The 'stun game', the concept of 'working out the stun' feels quite silly. With some characters (who lack guaranteed situations/tools) you're constantly trying to extend it to get a CB or a decent launch height, to finally get some guaranteed damage from a juggle. All that while the opponent gets the opportunity to hold you each time you try enlarge the stun threshold. It's just bad. Even when taking into account the guaranteed stuff DOA5 added to the series.
I miss the 1.03 patch version with un-SEable stuns

Bah, this topic has been talked down several times and we always get to the same point. Not trying to sound like some Raansu wannabe, lol. Sorry if you get that vibe =/

tl;dr the whole stun/defensive hold system as it is should be put down, for good.