any low that doesn't involve 2?

WAZAAAAA

Well-Known Member
EDIT: problem solved thanks for the replies, I had enough examples to fiddle with

Is there any attack in the entire game that puts the user into crouching status on the 1st frame and that doesn't involve pressing Down anywhere during the input? "Down" includes 1 2 and 3. It can be a strike/throw/hold/OH or anything.

I'm trying to explore a weird glitch regarding unholdables.
 
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WAZAAAAA

Well-Known Member
Thank you guys, that helps. Here's what I discovered:



This is the Hayabusa "OH Unholdable setup" that I was testing:
8KK > 8T

The only way to escape it is to crouch OR throw. This is where shit starts getting weird:
- responding with 6P will keep the frame data display at 0(0)0
- responding with 66K even though it is instantly Crouching = 0(0)0
- responding with a OH = 0(0)0
- responding with a standing throw = successfully avoided, since the startup frames of throws are OH-invincible in DOA5LR (I still can't fully explain why the throw starts at all though)
- responding with 3P or 3_P, which are still midP strikes with no crouching frames at all = 1(0)0!

It would appear that doing 3P or any input that involves the Down direction after a Tech Roll will "inject" Crouching status to the unholdable frame, the 3P will happen for 1 frame, and then it will still get caught by the OH on Hi Counter multiplier because Hayabusa's 8T has 3 active frames.
This is the list of animations that are playing (internal addresses I can see using Cheat Engine) on the Bayman side in that situation to better understand what's going on, in chronological order:
Code:
animation 8564	- universal back tech roll	- for 35 frames
animation 1	- universal crouching		- for 1 frame - Crouching status
animation 179	- 3_P				- for 1 frame - Standing status
animation 431	- Hayabusa's 8T has connected 	- for 77 frames
This seems to me a poor attempt by Team Ninja to mitigate the issues caused by Unholdables, instead of fixing Unholdables themselves.

Btw,
8KK 8T is pretty good. Seems to work on every character except Alpha, on any launcher height, on any Tech Roll direction. When the timing is not a true Unholdable, it's still a meaty air OH so it will beat most of the options anyway or it will at least be tricky to punish. In case of no Tech Roll, it's still mostly safe because 8T is always a great option to avoid the wake up game entirely. The only downside is that 8KK must be done from pretty close range to work properly. If they don't respect the setup and decide not to Tech Roll after 8KK, 7K is guaranteed which happens to be one of the most damaging Force Techs in the game too.



TL;DR
Unholdables coming after a Tech Roll will transfer 1 frame of Crouching status into the unholdable frame IF that move contains 2 anywhere in its input. How can this knowledge possibly be useful? Well, for example, a valid answer for Bayman in the above GIF is to Tank Wheel using 2P+K but not 8P+K because it will not work! So if your character has a unique sidestep-like move, use its 2 version and not the 8 one.
 
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Rikuto

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After nearly all tech states, as well as stun states, during the last two frames (in you include frame 0) you are able to pre-emptively enter a crouching state. You are also able to pre-emptively enter a striking state, but that doesn't mean starting the attack itself early (ergo, no crouch state that may have been attached to it on frame 1, as you are still on frame -1)

This is not simply to deal with the unholdable scenario, but also because if they did not do so you would have situations where a person would be tech'd off the ground and have to eat a guaranteed throw. In DOA 2 and 3, I believe this was not the case because you were able to connect NH stuns into guaranteed low throws and this is no longer possible when something is buffered. But when DOA 4 came out is when the change hit, presumably because of force techs existing and making such a situation possible. Somebody thought it would be too good, and in all likelihood they were right. There were some casualties of that change though.

The science is a little sloppy and most of all of that has been discovered by accident over the years when trying to find setups, but its the conclusion most higher level players reached when trying to figure out why that badass guaranteed setup in their head wouldn't work.

If you would like to see an example of a setup that worked in older games, go to sparring and do Tinas 8P, 2T on normal hit. Then set the CPU to do a strike reaction, or a standing guard. That pretty much tells you everything you need to know.
 
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WAZAAAAA

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I don't understand what you're calling frame "0" and "-1". Internally, the frame counters always start from 1 (the only exception is 0 when no match has started yet since boot), and additionally, the Move Details screen we see displayed in DOA5 lags behind by 1 frame from reality.

Yeah it is no mystery that the transition time from Standing to Crouching (and viceversa) is very variable and depends on what move you're coming from e.g. guarding from 4 to 1 = 4th frame crouches, guarding from H_ (blockstun) to H_33 = 1st frame crouches. The Switch Frame part of the Move Details shows this.

I've tried your Tina example in both DOA3.2 and DOAO, it doesn't seem to work. I can 2T (also 1T and 33T) the opponent I forced to crouch if I slightly delay the throw, but only if I set the COM to Standing Guard. Any strike will beat the 2T otherwise as expected... it does work more reliably in DOA5 if the opponent's 2nd action is Standing Guard though lol

There's also this weird fact I observed: trying to 6P Hayabusa's 8KK > 8T setup will NOT result in any Hi Counter Hit status, but trying the same against his classic 6T > 33P Unholdable setup will change the Counter hit status accordingly even though the move details remains 0(0)0!
 
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Matt Ponton

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This seems to me a poor attempt by Team Ninja to mitigate the issues caused by Unholdables, instead of fixing Unholdables themselves.
I think you still believe that Unholdables being in the game after a player techs is a glitch. If I am incorrect in that belief, please let me know.

I do not believe the Unholdables are a glitch. The team is aware of the ability, and it's not like it has been something the system has had since DOA5 Vanilla. I feel from a game design perspective it makes sense and is acceptable to have: In a situation where you have the option to tech up or wait for your opponent to tech you up through a force tech, if you tech up on your own accord, and the opponent reads that you're going to tech up, the opponent gets the reward of the unholdable. That's at the risk that you don't tech up, then the opponent reads incorrectly and is susceptible to the Wake Up (kick) game and/or put at heavy disadvantage. It's a fair trade off in my opinion, and I think TN see it in a similar manner.
 

WAZAAAAA

Well-Known Member
Yes I think it's a glitch, but Unholdables are not strictly related to Tech Rolling. Unholdables happen after (nearly) every. Fucking. Animation. In the game.
The unholdable frame also occurs when you wake up WITHOUT A TECH ROLL, or even after a wakeup kick, so the yomi created by it must be accidental.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
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Bayman
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Rikuto Kuronaga
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Rikuto-san
I don't understand what you're calling frame "0" and "-1". Internally, the frame counters always start from 1 (the only exception is 0 when no match has started yet since boot), and additionally, the Move Details screen we see displayed in DOA5 lags behind by 1 frame from reality.

Yeah it is no mystery that the transition time from Standing to Crouching (and viceversa) is very variable and depends on what move you're coming from e.g. guarding from 4 to 1 = 4th frame crouches, guarding from H_ (blockstun) to H_33 = 1st frame crouches. The Switch Frame part of the Move Details shows this.

I've tried your Tina example in both DOA3.2 and DOAO, it doesn't seem to work. I can 2T (also 1T and 33T) the opponent I forced to crouch if I slightly delay the throw, but only if I set the COM to Standing Guard. Any strike will beat the 2T otherwise as expected... it does work more reliably in DOA5 if the opponent's 2nd action is Standing Guard though lol

There's also this weird fact I observed: trying to 6P Hayabusa's 8KK > 8T setup will NOT result in any Hi Counter Hit status, but trying the same against his classic 6T > 33P Unholdable setup will change the Counter hit status accordingly even though the move details remains 0(0)0!

Frames -1 and 0 is where the defender would have to be under move details if they were attempting to enter a crouch state prior to leaving a stun or tech situation. Same science, different measuring tool. You aren't going to find too many people (if anyone) looking at how the game is reading its own data from a debug screen. Myself included.
 

DestructionBomb

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Even though it's already been answered due to the OP. I just want to be that guy who throws one in for lol.

Pai's :6::6::P+K: puts her in crouching. Unsure if it lands on the 1st frame, not at home. If it doesn't, nevermind.
 

WAZAAAAA

Well-Known Member
I think you still believe that Unholdables being in the game after a player techs is a glitch. If I am incorrect in that belief, please let me know.

I do not believe the Unholdables are a glitch. The team is aware of the ability, and it's not like it has been something the system has had since DOA5 Vanilla.
found an old official changelog
EN: https://teamninja-studio.com/doa5/uk/patch/0116b.html
JP: http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/doa5/patch/0116b.html

Fixed a bug just after guard recovery, etc. that caused a frame where the player was unable to perform a hold and could only guard.
The one frame in which a player could guard but not hold has been changed to allow both guards and holds.
ガードの硬直後など、行動終了直後にホールドが出せずガードのみ成立するフレームがあった不具合を修正。
※ガード可能且つホールド不可能だった1Fが、ガードもホールドも可能に。

The only reason it's still in the game: ACCIDENTAL SOFTWARE REGRESSION
@Matt Ponton APOLOGIZE
 
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