HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
You do realize this is Tag right? Tag acts completely differently than in singles. And a lot of properties are changed as well.
Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes
- Thread starter Berzerk!
- Start date
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Tekken is really about the spacing but generally you'll see the same combo over and over and over. Damage. That's it. Not wall carry, not better oki situation, not anything else, just damage.
Idc if you wanna use damage but when you can get a better pay out for taking the opponent to the wall without putting on your bound, THEN wrecking their shit with that splat, then you've got my attention (God bless KNEE).
VF is interesting as well but I don't know why... but i guess not interesting enough since I haven't taken the time to bust 5 dollars on it.
Hey kid, take a chill pill and pay attention first.
That wasn't a burst, it was a Hi counter blow with the visual hit effects on. Look on the right side and you'll see it was just a critical stun and that launch was not guaranteed.
MrMoon360
Well-Known Member
So we should go back to freestep dodging?
No thanks.
If anything, let us get the defensive move (sidestep) from VF5:FS.
I think tracking needs to be improved also.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
I only saw one correction. Didn't realize the post was that far back as well.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
Life settings:
- 270 is "fine" but I still feel 240 should be the competitive standard. Casuals can play with 5000 if they want but the series has worked with 240 since DOA2 and the overall pace of the game would benefit more from it. Like Koompbala said, Tina's HCT J.O.Cyclone deals 120 damage, doing two of these should kill a character. Using CB would benefit more and to balance it out, reduce hold damage just a little bit, like 15%. In fact, I'd be very happy if all normal holds dealt about the same damage as Mila's mid punch hold.
Guaranteed damage
- We need more of it, natural combos and unholdable stuns should give enough advantage to guarantee a at least a level 1 critical launcher to take a nice juggle from it.
Stun threshhold
- I'd prefer if it was reduced. Right now the Critical Threshold is 35, I think 25 should be the standard to everyone can get CB in three strikes and if they decide to launch without playing the stun system, they'd get a nice launch height.
Frame Advantage
- Some characters have nice frame traps but I seriously think there should be much more of them. Maybe everyones P and PP should be positive (+1 is more than enough) and a few others, 4-5 moves per characters giving frame advantage on block would be nice. Also, we need more safety, there's still too many unsafe moves. ALL GUARD BREAKS should be positive (Tina's 6F+K for example is -5) as having negative ones kills the purpose of breaking a blocking state.
Sidestep and movement
- Free Step Dodging should sidestep a few moves and the SS animation in general should work like the Defensive Move in VF5FS where if for example I SS Christie's first punch in her PPPPP string, the second and third one won't magically track even if they're NOT tracking moves.
Good tool sets for all characters
- I add OHs to this, OHs are nice but they should be EXCLUSIVE to grapplers and Leifang. When I say grapplers I mean Tina, Bass, Bayman, Mila, Lisa, Leon, Rachel and maybe Busa. Characters like Brad, Kasumi and Ein getting OHs is retarded and practically kills the purpose of them being in the game, it also kills character individuality. Jann Lee's gunner would be the ONLY exception I'd support and it is one of his most important tools.
Besides that, I think character individuality is mostly fine. DOA5 avoids having the entire cast playing the same thing like in DOA4. Brad does things differently than Tina, Helena is much different than Kasumi, Busa does his ninpos and Izunas while Mila takes care of her mounts and Christie spends time being annoying with her lightning fast punches and evasiveness. Only characters like Hitomi, Zack, Eliot and Hayate need tweaks and stuff added to make them more special.
Then we have parries. I believe parries should NOT be able to be done in stun (just like Advanced Holds) and the advantage should be better. For example, Gen Fu and Eliot get +16 from them but I think reverting it back to Gamescom 2012 levels (+20) is more than enough.
Characters like Tina, Bayman, Leon and Bass should get more guaranteed ground throws from their strings and juggles. So if anything, the ground game should be tightened so they get more advantage from it in case they decide to throw in the floor instead of Force Tech.
Minimize the power of the hold
- I agree. In fact, I think most holds should deal about the same damage as Mila's mid punch hold. But they're fine in 1.03a.
All play styles and characters effective
- Yes, of course. We have an excellent cast of 29 characters and this site has proven that (except Rig), all of them have a very nice and solid fanbase and players caring for them. Even Alpha-152. So making them balanced without forcing them to play the same style as in DOA4 is imperative for the well-being of the game.
- 270 is "fine" but I still feel 240 should be the competitive standard. Casuals can play with 5000 if they want but the series has worked with 240 since DOA2 and the overall pace of the game would benefit more from it. Like Koompbala said, Tina's HCT J.O.Cyclone deals 120 damage, doing two of these should kill a character. Using CB would benefit more and to balance it out, reduce hold damage just a little bit, like 15%. In fact, I'd be very happy if all normal holds dealt about the same damage as Mila's mid punch hold.
Guaranteed damage
- We need more of it, natural combos and unholdable stuns should give enough advantage to guarantee a at least a level 1 critical launcher to take a nice juggle from it.
Stun threshhold
- I'd prefer if it was reduced. Right now the Critical Threshold is 35, I think 25 should be the standard to everyone can get CB in three strikes and if they decide to launch without playing the stun system, they'd get a nice launch height.
Frame Advantage
- Some characters have nice frame traps but I seriously think there should be much more of them. Maybe everyones P and PP should be positive (+1 is more than enough) and a few others, 4-5 moves per characters giving frame advantage on block would be nice. Also, we need more safety, there's still too many unsafe moves. ALL GUARD BREAKS should be positive (Tina's 6F+K for example is -5) as having negative ones kills the purpose of breaking a blocking state.
Sidestep and movement
- Free Step Dodging should sidestep a few moves and the SS animation in general should work like the Defensive Move in VF5FS where if for example I SS Christie's first punch in her PPPPP string, the second and third one won't magically track even if they're NOT tracking moves.
Good tool sets for all characters
- I add OHs to this, OHs are nice but they should be EXCLUSIVE to grapplers and Leifang. When I say grapplers I mean Tina, Bass, Bayman, Mila, Lisa, Leon, Rachel and maybe Busa. Characters like Brad, Kasumi and Ein getting OHs is retarded and practically kills the purpose of them being in the game, it also kills character individuality. Jann Lee's gunner would be the ONLY exception I'd support and it is one of his most important tools.
Besides that, I think character individuality is mostly fine. DOA5 avoids having the entire cast playing the same thing like in DOA4. Brad does things differently than Tina, Helena is much different than Kasumi, Busa does his ninpos and Izunas while Mila takes care of her mounts and Christie spends time being annoying with her lightning fast punches and evasiveness. Only characters like Hitomi, Zack, Eliot and Hayate need tweaks and stuff added to make them more special.
Then we have parries. I believe parries should NOT be able to be done in stun (just like Advanced Holds) and the advantage should be better. For example, Gen Fu and Eliot get +16 from them but I think reverting it back to Gamescom 2012 levels (+20) is more than enough.
Characters like Tina, Bayman, Leon and Bass should get more guaranteed ground throws from their strings and juggles. So if anything, the ground game should be tightened so they get more advantage from it in case they decide to throw in the floor instead of Force Tech.
Minimize the power of the hold
- I agree. In fact, I think most holds should deal about the same damage as Mila's mid punch hold. But they're fine in 1.03a.
All play styles and characters effective
- Yes, of course. We have an excellent cast of 29 characters and this site has proven that (except Rig), all of them have a very nice and solid fanbase and players caring for them. Even Alpha-152. So making them balanced without forcing them to play the same style as in DOA4 is imperative for the well-being of the game.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Eliot's parries really aren't as powerful is Genfu's for the most part, but they're still good. Genfu gets a free deep stun off of his, a lift stun at that. Eliot gets strikes that offer the "will he do it, or will he not do it" mix-up. It makes sense somewhat though since Eliot is Genfu's apprentice therefore not on the level of the master... but in the place of character balance where does Eliot shine above Gen-fu? That's a question to really ask.
Lets talk OH's a gain for a second. I guess with frame advantage being a part of it, it wouldn't matter, but lets say that they don't add frame advantage. On guard or NH.
I'll bring up my scenario again. Lets say a Jann Lee decides to 9P (-1) and out of spike he expects the opponent to lock up so he's going to go for the Dragon Gunner. This is going to come out in 20 frames now basically. Problem is, he guessed wrong, so lets say... oh I don't know Hayate counter pokes with 6P looking for the counter blow and now because the JL made a decision that came with consequences which was attacking/offensively holding at disadvantage. Hayate lands his 6p. Now he's at -12. This is not only Hayate but this is the best example. Why, is it ok for grapplers to not get penalized for making a bad decision or inputting the OH too late?
That isn't the end of it though, if Hayate has free cancelled or doesn't hit confirm the input correctly, he gets punished for hitting the opponent if by some off chance the opponent decided to 66TTTTTTTTTTTT.
Frame advantage on hit (and guard) would help this scenario... but lets be honest, an OH is a very powerful tool to cover your tracks with and even if the opponent guards it works as a throw would to get them damage.
What's worse is having an OH would help a lot of situations like Kasumi's 66P6P+K situation as far as not having anyway to track SS (since SS attacking can interrupt her Oboro). She doesn't get penalized for tracking SS and counter hold is given for catching people holding out of stun/gb.
Anyway... frame advantage on NH seems like the surefire way to fix up the issue for sure. Only other issue I have is Leifang's wall OH.
Lets talk OH's a gain for a second. I guess with frame advantage being a part of it, it wouldn't matter, but lets say that they don't add frame advantage. On guard or NH.
I'll bring up my scenario again. Lets say a Jann Lee decides to 9P (-1) and out of spike he expects the opponent to lock up so he's going to go for the Dragon Gunner. This is going to come out in 20 frames now basically. Problem is, he guessed wrong, so lets say... oh I don't know Hayate counter pokes with 6P looking for the counter blow and now because the JL made a decision that came with consequences which was attacking/offensively holding at disadvantage. Hayate lands his 6p. Now he's at -12. This is not only Hayate but this is the best example. Why, is it ok for grapplers to not get penalized for making a bad decision or inputting the OH too late?
That isn't the end of it though, if Hayate has free cancelled or doesn't hit confirm the input correctly, he gets punished for hitting the opponent if by some off chance the opponent decided to 66TTTTTTTTTTTT.
Frame advantage on hit (and guard) would help this scenario... but lets be honest, an OH is a very powerful tool to cover your tracks with and even if the opponent guards it works as a throw would to get them damage.
What's worse is having an OH would help a lot of situations like Kasumi's 66P6P+K situation as far as not having anyway to track SS (since SS attacking can interrupt her Oboro). She doesn't get penalized for tracking SS and counter hold is given for catching people holding out of stun/gb.
Anyway... frame advantage on NH seems like the surefire way to fix up the issue for sure. Only other issue I have is Leifang's wall OH.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Exactly my point. Character balance.
Since they're turning this back into DOA4, they want you constantly backing away from your opponent like in that game.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Either that or just make him Gen-Fu/Lei Fang status by increasing the parry advantage by one frame. This means that he will get a free hit with 8p, 66p, 3p, 4p, and 9p. The real reward is 8p and 66p though. Both of those stun on NH and 8p specifically is a lift stun, and it works just like Genfu's 8p basically except it doesn't have follow ups.
At that point he would be following the Master. In addition you could run Zack like mix-ups with his long strings (3pppp, 9pppp, 66ppppp, 4ppppp). I say "Zack like" because most of the strings guaranteed off of Zack's 6T do not stun on NH yet his strings allow him to run the "will he stop or will he not" pressure, then on top of that he's got real string mix-ups that come later on in the strings (strings, strings strings
). Eliot does not, but lets look at the big picture, 8p and 66p. Trade off between them is, 8p is weak damage but a really good stun, 66p is good damage and threshold possibility but a small stun that only guarantees that you can take a chance at p or 7p to extend.On top of it all, 9kk is still and option and 3kp is still there as an option. 9k and 3k don't give good stuns just frame advantage but it's their follow ups that matter (even though the reward of 3kp is negligible)
There's lots of potential in this boy.
Parry via counter = frame disadvantage for the one who got countered.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
It's a fun idea but that isn't something that is going to happen. You are better off fighting a different battle.
Well, you say that...
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
Ah ok thanks for the reply. Sorry I deleted my original comment b/c I had already posted it on another thread.
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
Kind of agree with the rest of your post.
But why, except Rig ?
Also, sorry to make you repeat things guys, but I still don't understand why 300 is too much ? I still don't get it.
Also, how would you make Hitomi, Zack and Eliot more special ?
Rubedood
Well-Known Member
Kind of agree with the rest of your post.
But why, except Rig ?
Also, sorry to make you repeat things guys, but I still don't understand why 300 is too much ? I still don't get it.
Also, how would you make Hitomi, Zack and Eliot more special ?
It's too much because it makes matches drag on longer than they should.