D.I.D. 8: Aftermath

[Dallas1088]

Question. Couldn't just about every character use a move with a hard knockdown and force the opponent back up with a force tech? I saw grapplers in the tournament foregoing guaranteed ground grabs to attempt a forced wakeup. Everyone's talking about Helena, but maybe other players aren't taking as much advantage of that system as Helena players are (granted, Helena has some great tools to make it nigh unavoidable)?

Could Lei Fang not be ending combos with something like ppkh+k and do nearly the same thing? Perhaps we should be focusing less on the most damaging combos we can do (outside of winning a match), and as players, focus more on what tools we can use to force the opponent back up and into our pressure game.

I'm excited to see how the metagame evolves and what people come up with, and if Helena continues to be a major threat in tournaments... well... there'd really be no denying her worth. I'd honestly be really interested to see what people can come up with for characters like Kasumi and Christie, because their speed coupled with the ability to take away someone's wakeup game could make them downright terrifying.

 

[DR2K]

Grapplers forgo guaranteed low throw damage for guaranteed advantage.

Helena gives up(much needed) damage to avoid the wake up kick. No advantage. I'm sure lots of characters have combos with knockdown damage enders that forces the player to tech.It's a matter of finding them.

 

[dawnbringer]

Helena gives up(much needed) damage to avoid the wake up kick. No advantage.

She gains advantage in both cases: either if they force teched or teched. In case of force tech she gains +24 advantage. Enough time walk up and start her good mix-ups. If opponent teches in place she has some advantage as well. When I tested it was enough to walk up and do a 16-frame mid kick.

I'm sure lots of characters have combos with knockdown damage enders that forces the player to tech.It's a matter of finding them.

Yes, I think so.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Question. Couldn't just about every character use a move with a hard knockdown and force the opponent back up with a force tech? I saw grapplers in the tournament foregoing guaranteed ground grabs to attempt a forced wakeup. Everyone's talking about Helena, but maybe other players aren't taking as much advantage of that system as Helena players are (granted, Helena has some great tools to make it nigh unavoidable)?

Could Lei Fang not be ending combos with something like ppkh+k and do nearly the same thing? Perhaps we should be focusing less on the most damaging combos we can do (outside of winning a match), and as players, focus more on what tools we can use to force the opponent back up and into our pressure game.

I'm excited to see how the metagame evolves and what people come up with, and if Helena continues to be a major threat in tournaments... well... there'd really be no denying her worth. I'd honestly be really interested to see what people can come up with for characters like Kasumi and Christie, because their speed coupled with the ability to take away someone's wakeup game could make them downright terrifying.

This is pretty much the case, every character can access set ups likes these. Every character (or almost every character) has the ability to use a hard knock down to avoid wake up kicks if the alter their combo's. People who act like it's just Helena are just heavily misinformed.

 

[DR2K]

She gains advantage in both cases: either if they force teched or teched. In case of force tech she gains +24 advantage. Enough time walk up and start her good mix-ups. If opponent teches in place she has some advantage as well. When I tested it was enough to walk up and do a 16-frame mid kick.



Yes, I think so.

She's +6 on hit, +24 would be bonkers.

 

[Prince Adon]

*facepalm* Do you people still not get it? Yes other characters can force tech, too. With Helena it's more persistent. It's a big strategy that makes her good since no matter what she has an advantage. Other characters force techs don't have the same luxury as she do. It's like how every characters has thows, but some characters has throws that makes them great like Jann Lee's dragon gunner.

 

[NightAntilli]

Helena is the new Jann Lee. You get hit, no easy way out, even with holding.

Oh, and if I remember, this whole "Helena is garbage tier" movement was caused by Bryan's early take on the character. Even then, he admitted that she's great once she lands a stun, but getting in to land a stun is difficult. This can be seen true during Manny's come back in the GF when he starts blocking a lot of Mamba's mix-ups.

Of course, it can be difficult to guard that mix-up, and fighting Jann Lee requires a similar mind set.

What I'm saying is, she isn't "broken" and I just look forward to players learning how to defend against her.

I agree that she's not broken. What I do not agree with is people pretending that she's the new Brad Tier. She can be guarded against, and Master was doing quite a good job of it in the last few rounds in the grand finals. When she is guarded, she is very vulnerable, but when she's not (which is what will happen if you let her attack you too much), she's more dangerous than quite a few (if not most) other characters. She has launchers all over the place which all can put you right back into a forced wake-up. People argue that other characters can do this, but, they can't do it so effectively. Helena has more launchers than pretty much any other character as far as I know, both from normal stance, back turned and Bokuho stance, and the launch height doesn't really matter since she just needs to get to use the forced wake-up again to keep you under pressure.

As for the importance of wakeup kicks, one of the reasons people have been saying that Alpha-152's game is over when she's knocked down is because she lacks wake-up kicks. And now suddenly, in the case of Helena, when wake-up kicks are eliminated, suddenly they don't matter..? Come on....

 

[DR2K]

Alpha makes up for lacking a wakeup kick by being batshit broken.

I will say that Helena is an incredibly flawed character, but she removes the wake up kick out of the equation and players just weren't prepared for that. Will players start developing anti-Helena strats now that she has a game changing tool? Does frame data outside of stun even matter much in DOA5? We'll find out in the next episode.

 

[Rikuto]

Well it's good that she has to continually keep doing it. Besides Pai, she retains the lowest damage output in the game.

Is the loss of wake up kick that good? Or are players too dependant on it?

most characters are not allowed nonstop offense and normal hit lows that reset the situation to this extent. generally a person has one high damaging option that would do a ton of damage but return to the neutral game, and lesser options that would reset the situation. here, everything resets the situation so there is no mindgame. its just randomness leading into more randomness. you can roll your face on the controller and get the same results. in fact, mamba and i have actually tested that and confirmed it lol.

 

[dawnbringer]

She's +6 on hit, +24 would be bonkers.

Advantage is gained from unavoidable standing up animation, during which defending character can do nothing.

 

[DR2K]

Advantage is gained from unavoidable standing up animation, during which defending character can do nothing.

There is no advantage when teched, if not teched it's +6 for her. You A) have invincible frames teching B) 6p is recovering on whiff. It's all mind games.

 

[dawnbringer]

There is no advantage when teched, if not teched it's +6 for her. You A) have invincible frames teching B) 6p is recovering on whiff. It's all mind games.

Look, when you finished standing up and good to go Helena already started doing a move. If you want to hit her she has speed advantage because you wasted time standing up. So she forces you to block, which is the point.

 

[DR2K]

Look, when you finished standing up and good to go Helena already started doing a move. If you want to hit her she has speed advantage because you wasted time standing up. So she forces you to block, which is the point.

She doesn't have an advantage numerically unless it's a literal force tech. It's just a reset when teched.

 

[TakedaZX]

This is what I was getting at, and basically the fastest mid(11 frames)only comes from christie and kasumi, so there's no really much you could beat out from her, because her moves are priority riden, but if there is something, i'm gunna have to spend a lot of time i the lab coming up with it, as will others. Even still it shouldn't be "nerfed", it should be used as an example for changes to the core.

I mean maybe she shouldn't have AS great options, they still seem really really good after CrimsonCJ showed me some of the stuff she has at her disposal from it. It's powerful, and while the damage isn't great, it gives great opportunities to send your opponent int a vortex

 

[DR2K]

This is what I was getting at, and basically the fastest mid(11 frames)only comes from christie and kasumi, so there's no really much you could beat out from her, because her moves are priority riden, but if there is something, i'm gunna have to spend a lot of time i the lab coming up with it, as will others. Even still it shouldn't be "nerfed", it should be used as an example for changes to the core.

I mean maybe she shouldn't have AS great options, they still seem really really good after CrimsonCJ showed me some of the stuff she has at her disposal from it. It's powerful, and while the damage isn't great, it gives great opportunities to send your opponent int a vortex

Their mids are 10 frames. When the situation is reset their fastest moves will stuff anything Helena has unless she's crushing or at literal advantage.

Helena has no priority, the only thing in the game with priority are wake up kicks and moves that do more damage that clash in the same frame. (aka Eliots 7p vs Kasumi jab) as far as I know.

 

[TakedaZX]

Their mids are 10 frames. When the situation is reset their fastest moves will stuff anything Helena has unless she's crushing or at literal advantage.

Helena has no priority, the only thing in the game with priority are wake up kicks and moves that do more damage that clash in the same frame. (aka Eliots 7p vs Kasumi jab) as far as I know.

Haha no. Give me a little while and I'll tell you what moves have priority. 66p is one of them coming in but it's hella unsafe so all you gotta do is block it. Fortunately, it's not a part of the situation at hand. It could be that my main just has low priority moves which is a problem, cause he literally has nothing else going for him lol.

and granted that christie and kasumi's mids be 10 frames, why would I only select Kasumi and Christie to fight Helena? Why do I have to use some other character just to hit a person out of a situation like this? And lets not forget, when you force tech, you roll back, left or right, there's gunna be a bit of distance between me and the Helena, meaning that mid just might not hit and the 7k or 6k just might win... everytime... for counter damage if I go for the combo with kasumi's 6pp or 3pp, which I think those are the 10 frame mids you're talking about. I'm not saying that it needs to go like some people are, I just think forced techs need to come in and be as common as they were in 4.

but just for you, I'm gunna start spamming pppp with Hayate if i get forced tech to beat out any high moves or grabs, for lows or tech crouches, i'm gunna go for 33k if I'm even lucky enough, and for grabs.

Grapplers forgo guaranteed low throw damage for guaranteed advantage.

Helena gives up(much needed) damage to avoid the wake up kick. No advantage. I'm sure lots of characters have combos with knockdown damage enders that forces the player to tech.It's a matter of finding them.

Hayate has none that work as well as hers, I've spent hours in the lab and the only one that comes close is a FT off of either CB Wind Dash Uppercut launch, or HCH 8k, into 3H+K which gives a ground bounce into a force tech opportunity with 1pk. If they tech the sweep will catch them and if they catch onto the sweep, 1p(delay)p will knock them out of that for CH damage, and to make it better, if they tech, you can dash in for a Raijin/Launch to reset the situation. Helena only needs to NH launch and the situation becomes a factor

 

[Zeo]

Well this thread turned nasty in a hurry now didn't it? I knew this was going to happen after Helena won a major.

 

[TakedaZX]

Well this thread turned nasty in a hurry now didn't it? I knew this was going to happen after Helena won a major.

I'm not trying to sound that way and I'm hoping people aren't taking it that way, I'm just saying that the players that are saying "oh it's not really that great" so it doesn't get removed in the next patch need to stop with that, it's being down played. It makes it so wakeup kicks are never a problem, so... lets get that for everyone again(Tina has this, bass has it, Bayman has it, or wait ._. aren't they all grapplers, i think someone else that's not a grappler has a true forced tech, Hayate has a few pseudo ones as well, but you have to work all the way up to a Critical burst to get the one that's on par with Helena's.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

An earnest plea from a Helena player for a second?

Look, I know where some of my fellow players are coming from on this, on both sides. On the one hand, a lot of people who have studied the character seem really frustrated that a bunch of technical disadvantages she has are suddenly being dismissed entirely. On the other, a lot of players feel that she is very hard to defend against in a fashion that makes those technical advantages moot.

I'll own that I'm of the opinion somewhere in the middle; I do think she has those technical disadvantages, but I think she benefits from the psychological nature of DOA in a way that most other characters do not. But it's not an immutable opinion. I'd like to raise a few points.

One, it's the first days after the tournament. I know people are naturally going to jump to conclusions quickly or have had theirs for a while, and that's fine. That said, can we at least let people adjust to the highlight reel before making conclusions either way?

Secondly; I'm not saying this because I think I really have any right to judge what people are allowed to say. Far from. But if we're looking to actually figure out *what* is going on with Helena, the tone isn't useful. Calling a bunch of established Helena players garbage and unable to understand their own character is not helpful. Often, these calls are coming from people who don't necessarily understand Helena themselves. On the other hand, dismissing people who think she is more powerful with a sarcastic hand wave isn't either. They're still legit opinions.

Third, shout-out to Mamba and E-Mann both. Very, very good play from both, and I'm always happy to see Helena players do well; it's inspiring. And even if there is a chance players didn't react to Helena in an optimal fashion, I'm hardly using that as a moment to doubt their skills.

Reading this thread has been... abnormally difficult on a number of levels. Personally, admittedly. But the logic has long fallen away to personal battery. I'd like my character given the credit of more dispassionate analysis. It would be good for everyone if we took a breath.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Well this thread turned nasty in a hurry now didn't it? I knew this was going to happen after Helena won a major.

I think most Helena players don't like listening to people who don't play Helena say that she is really good when all E.Mann did was keep his opponent guessing wrong whilst in stun. Rikuto made a ton of mistakes whilst fighting him and he lost because of it. Rikuto was outplayed, plain and simple.

I may not be on the same page as most of the Helena players as I don't feel she is absolute trash but I KNOW, and let me emphasize that as unlike most people who are commenting on her I actually play her, that even though she has some good tools they don't justify the huge deficits that she got loaded down with in DOA5.

Many characters have the ability to eliminate wake up kicks, I would guess that it is a fairly universal tool but most people have not considered using it in their combo's, that might change soon.

Helena still needs some improvement, making her safer will be enough to make her solid. She cannot get any momentum unless she can hit you with a low that stuns on NH which isn't that easy if you have any experience fighting her as they are pretty obvious. Otherwise she is constantly at -9 on everything she does, she needs safer moves.

As far as the people who are saying she doesn't need ANY improvements, I've been playing her since the Dreamcast and have played her non stop since DOA5 came out. If you don't think she needs any buff's at all and you don't even play her then why do you think your opinion is more informed than mine is? It wouldn't hurt to maybe pay attention to the people who really know what they are talking about.

As far as the Helena players who are emoing out, their on their own.