D.I.D. 8: Aftermath
- Thread starter Scornwell
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DR2K
Well-Known Member
Maxdrago was right all along. Truly one of the DOA gods.
No, she's not. She can just do them very easily from a lot of her combos and follow them up quickly to snare rising opponents.
DR2K why weren't you at DID8?
Paradise
Member
Do you have the option to tech roll before her force techs catch you?
People like Onslaught and Dr Dogg will continue to say that this character is terrible long after Helena wins a dozen majors. So why even bother arguing with them.
If I recall correctly I remember Dr Dogg saying something along the lines of "Helena's BKO duck needs to be faster" in DOA4. So yeah...
If I recall correctly I remember Dr Dogg saying something along the lines of "Helena's BKO duck needs to be faster" in DOA4. So yeah...
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Personal reasons.
Terrible characters can still win especially early on in a games life. I'd trade the "force tech" for a safer/more damaging/DOA5 character any day of the week.
D
Deleted member 473
Guest
People will try to force characters to be better by asking for buffs for their character(s) and nerf others..... Its like a kids game of duck, duck, goose.... Smh
SilverKhaos
Active Member
I'd say its more like chess, where things are anticipated, and planned ahead with counter strategies. Less so poker.
What I don't get is why people keep arguing that her moves are "unsafe". As if that matters when you are being juggled around like a ragdoll for the entire round with virtually no way out. Can't exactly exploit those "unsafe" moves when you have no control of your character after ever being hit by Helena.
Helena is the new Jann Lee. You get hit, no easy way out, even with holding.
Oh, and if I remember, this whole "Helena is garbage tier" movement was caused by Bryan's early take on the character. Even then, he admitted that she's great once she lands a stun, but getting in to land a stun is difficult. This can be seen true during Manny's come back in the GF when he starts blocking a lot of Mamba's mix-ups.
Of course, it can be difficult to guard that mix-up, and fighting Jann Lee requires a similar mind set.
What I'm saying is, she isn't "broken" and I just look forward to players learning how to defend against her.
Oh, and if I remember, this whole "Helena is garbage tier" movement was caused by Bryan's early take on the character. Even then, he admitted that she's great once she lands a stun, but getting in to land a stun is difficult. This can be seen true during Manny's come back in the GF when he starts blocking a lot of Mamba's mix-ups.
Of course, it can be difficult to guard that mix-up, and fighting Jann Lee requires a similar mind set.
What I'm saying is, she isn't "broken" and I just look forward to players learning how to defend against her.
Scornwell
Active Member
Well, I'd argue otherwise...
Both wake-up kicks push away an opponent on block beyond the point of fast enough punishment, even though low is unsafe at -10. You've essentially put the game back to neutral.
On hit, both kicks stun an opponent straight into virtually any stun combo you want. If your opponent tries to tech with a strike and fails (which is quite easy due to the invincibility frames and the strange way the engine interprets where you're positioned while wake-up kicking), free launcher.
You've given yourself a MASSIVE advantage from guessing wrong and recovering correctly.
Lobo
Active Member
I think you can look at Alpha as the perfect example of how dominant wake-up kicks are and just how useful force-techs can be. Since the game came out all I've heard is that Alpha is a beast until you knock her down/corner her, then she turns into complete garbage.
Why?
The answer is fear, or the lack of it. Once Alpha goes down, good players will look to keep the train running and just stay in her face, most likely scoring another knock down and starting the whole process again. All of this without the fear of having to deal with the crazy guessing game of wake-up kicks.
Now realize that Helena turns the whole cast into a vs. Alpha matchup -- once you get knocked down, your options turn to garbage, no matter what tier you thought you were.
Edit: And just to clarify, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with her force-tech. I will be disappointed to see TN patch it out. I just wish more chars had similar options. I can only imagine my Leifang with force-tech options -- complete mayhem!
Why?
The answer is fear, or the lack of it. Once Alpha goes down, good players will look to keep the train running and just stay in her face, most likely scoring another knock down and starting the whole process again. All of this without the fear of having to deal with the crazy guessing game of wake-up kicks.
Now realize that Helena turns the whole cast into a vs. Alpha matchup -- once you get knocked down, your options turn to garbage, no matter what tier you thought you were.
Edit: And just to clarify, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with her force-tech. I will be disappointed to see TN patch it out. I just wish more chars had similar options. I can only imagine my Leifang with force-tech options -- complete mayhem!
XV MR ARMANI
Active Member
I'm sorry but this whole thread reminds me of Soul Calibur V.
You know, everyone is all happy go lucky about the newest addition to the Calibur series and what not. In the latter months, people began to complain that one of the new editions to the roster, Viola was possibly the worst character in SC's history. They requested that Viola needed some reworking and long story short, Project Soul buffed the hell out of her and since then after all the new revelations of her mix-up capabilities and guaranteed damage setups she became the most broken character on the roster. I didn't even want to play with her anymore cause it felt like the fights were all in my odds.
All I have to say is, people do your homework before requesting buffs. There is probably alot more things to discover about this game.
You know, everyone is all happy go lucky about the newest addition to the Calibur series and what not. In the latter months, people began to complain that one of the new editions to the roster, Viola was possibly the worst character in SC's history. They requested that Viola needed some reworking and long story short, Project Soul buffed the hell out of her and since then after all the new revelations of her mix-up capabilities and guaranteed damage setups she became the most broken character on the roster. I didn't even want to play with her anymore cause it felt like the fights were all in my odds.
All I have to say is, people do your homework before requesting buffs. There is probably alot more things to discover about this game.
shunwong
Active Member
When DOA5 arrived and some people at VFDC started playing it I read one of them (maybe rodnutz) said something like "in DOA the advantage/disadvantage system from VF is not the core of the system, It's substituted by the stun system". I didn't at the time understand what he meant. Now I understand what he meant.
About Helena...Helena players should really think about the impression they cause. They have been bitching about Helena since 1 MONTH prior to the game launch!...And they haven't stopped ever since. Every fucking single day!
About Helena...Helena players should really think about the impression they cause. They have been bitching about Helena since 1 MONTH prior to the game launch!...And they haven't stopped ever since. Every fucking single day!
MajesticBlue
Active Member
As far as Helena is concerned I feel she is still really damn good. None of the frame data matters if you can't manage to hit her. Last I played with my friend who is an amazing Helena player, I found I could be at massive frame advantage and still not be able to reliably hit her. Pretty much you never have a good reason to use a high move. So unless you have good mids, you are stuck throwing out low taps all day. SS is there but getting reset doesn't sound too fun. Well, unless you can actually block the right way (guess) and punish everytime( geting hit out of mixups you attempt to option select). Or hold, either way I think the guessing is largley in her favor.
People say matchup info is not to important in 3d fighters but I disagree. In Doa 4 Helena was Ryu's worst matchup. If I had to guess why, it would have to do with his lack of mids. In Doa 5 I still think she is better then him. His new tools do nothing to change the match up. Does this put her in a higher tier then him? Not necessarily. It just means we need to play a more matchup based game I think.
This game really is about picking a character for the way you want to play. Sticking to your favorite can bite you in the ass this time. (I) still see the stun game as the strongest option. Unless you are one of the few characters who can get around it. The problem is you still have parts of the cast that can't play Doa 5. So having a strong stun game is still an advantage. How much of an advantage depends on how you approach the game. If you don't want to play the stun game you need to pick your main accordingly. Sad but true.
The nature of the stun game gives potential. The amount of potential is unseen, thus it is hard to catagorize. It does however give more then a fighting chance. Talking about nerfing Helena makes no sense at all. At least from what I have seen. I really don't think she needs buffs either though. I feel at worst she is solid mid? Maybe some Helena players are in the same boat I am with Ryu. (Not accusing anyone, just saying.) What the character has does not fit your mindset or approach. I think Ryu is one of the worst in the game. Maybe that is only based on my veiw of the game and what I see as optimal. So looking at things from other ways can help.
People say matchup info is not to important in 3d fighters but I disagree. In Doa 4 Helena was Ryu's worst matchup. If I had to guess why, it would have to do with his lack of mids. In Doa 5 I still think she is better then him. His new tools do nothing to change the match up. Does this put her in a higher tier then him? Not necessarily. It just means we need to play a more matchup based game I think.
This game really is about picking a character for the way you want to play. Sticking to your favorite can bite you in the ass this time. (I) still see the stun game as the strongest option. Unless you are one of the few characters who can get around it. The problem is you still have parts of the cast that can't play Doa 5. So having a strong stun game is still an advantage. How much of an advantage depends on how you approach the game. If you don't want to play the stun game you need to pick your main accordingly. Sad but true.
The nature of the stun game gives potential. The amount of potential is unseen, thus it is hard to catagorize. It does however give more then a fighting chance. Talking about nerfing Helena makes no sense at all. At least from what I have seen. I really don't think she needs buffs either though. I feel at worst she is solid mid? Maybe some Helena players are in the same boat I am with Ryu. (Not accusing anyone, just saying.) What the character has does not fit your mindset or approach. I think Ryu is one of the worst in the game. Maybe that is only based on my veiw of the game and what I see as optimal. So looking at things from other ways can help.
Sam Sultan
Active Member
If Helena is such a bad character and Emann still manages to beat the champion of the launch party's Bayman(which is a high tier character btw) does that mean Emann is 10x better tha Rikuto? I mean if Helena is so bad then Emann must be 10x better than Rikuto to beat him 3-0, while Rikuto is using a top tier character. Is that what you huys are trying to say? Or maybe you guys are trying to say that Rikuto is not a good player and that you guys can do it better? No offense to anyone just trying to understand this whole situation.
Rikuto's a great player. Helena is not "so bad."
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
When you travel and want to win the wake up kick becomes a problem. You do all this work knock someone down and you have to be DEFENSIVE because of it. Regardless of how you "feel" about the wake up kick means nothing the fact that you had to CHANGE your approach because it hitting you changes the fight.
Helena knocks you down she already knows exactly where you will be when she finishes her juggle.
Helena knocks you down she already knows exactly where you will be when she finishes her juggle.
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