DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
so in other words make every character as shitty as eliot? sounds good to me. if he can't abuse lows to open up blocking opponents then no one should!
D.I.D. 8: Aftermath
- Thread starter Scornwell
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so in other words make every character as shitty as eliot? sounds good to me. if he can't abuse lows to open up blocking opponents then no one should!
XV MR ARMANI
Active Member
She doesn't have a BKO 6P2 where you can get into BKO after 6P, your just buffering the stance after 6P to get into BKO so the input is BKO 6P~2P+K. It takes longer for it to come out and it would be dumb to nerf that because even though I'm particularly new to this community, I can say for myself she's had 2P+K since she was added to the roster. You can't just take that out.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
All that does is give Helena a high-counter damage bonus to highs and mids and she can still juggle you into a force tech.
That doesn't exactly sound like ideal damage control.
Jumping attacks aren't necessarily going to work depending on how many frames you take to get into tech frames vs. your disadvantage, and of course they're going to just hop right into a counter mid. BKO 2k ducks very, very low too so a lot of the jumping mids might just whiff anyway or get caught (witness Hayabusa f+kkk against lows). I would be interested to see if Bayman's 9p wouldn't just get straight wasted by BKO 2k, honestly. And holding low is stupid risky, as I'm sure you know, and doesn't get you out of anything low block wouldn't anyway. All you're doing is making it worse if she does anything but a low attack. You might have a point if the jumping attack just gets you knocked down and doesn't let her have a reset, though; it might be the least worst option in that case. (I see Rikuto beat me to that one, but maybe there's something to this just getting knocked down idea).
I'll test and see, but right now everything she's got encourages you to have to take a big counter risk one way or the other. At least if sidestep was a possibility you'd only be risking high counter throws and tracking moves. As it is you can block low and beat 2 out of three or block mid and lose 2 out of three, or sidestep and still lose 2 out of three (actually more like 3 out of 4 since I think she has mid tracking moves that will work) plus counter damage. Mid hold obviously loses to 3 out of 4 in this mixup too. She doesn't have to pick low or tracking since she's got both, so sidestep is just fucked. She can almost just mix mid and low and be done with it. I'm not sure if her mid tracking moves are fast enough to work on pseudo force tech but even then you'll probably have to use a p or 6p to beat them and 2k just ducks that. If she didn't get the reset on BKO 2k or on throw I wouldn't be too pissed, but nobody gets both. Even Mila doesn't really get a reset from 6f+p or 66f+p after a force tech.
Brad can pull this happy horseshit in VF5FS and I can assure you it's annoying to deal with, but it doesn't just reset you either. That's the problem.
I'll test and see, but right now everything she's got encourages you to have to take a big counter risk one way or the other. At least if sidestep was a possibility you'd only be risking high counter throws and tracking moves. As it is you can block low and beat 2 out of three or block mid and lose 2 out of three, or sidestep and still lose 2 out of three (actually more like 3 out of 4 since I think she has mid tracking moves that will work) plus counter damage. Mid hold obviously loses to 3 out of 4 in this mixup too. She doesn't have to pick low or tracking since she's got both, so sidestep is just fucked. She can almost just mix mid and low and be done with it. I'm not sure if her mid tracking moves are fast enough to work on pseudo force tech but even then you'll probably have to use a p or 6p to beat them and 2k just ducks that. If she didn't get the reset on BKO 2k or on throw I wouldn't be too pissed, but nobody gets both. Even Mila doesn't really get a reset from 6f+p or 66f+p after a force tech.
Brad can pull this happy horseshit in VF5FS and I can assure you it's annoying to deal with, but it doesn't just reset you either. That's the problem.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
The point was that you can guess out of the stupid thing, it's a 50/50 like everything else in the game (low hold would have the same effect). If she low sweeps I'm assuming you have at least 2 chances to guess. Play SF and people will loop your face off with vortexes, this game at least gives you holds.
It's no different that the shit in 4 with Busa and Helena. Guess right.
It's no different that the shit in 4 with Busa and Helena. Guess right.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna have to try that... Akira's got some great command jump attacks.
Excepting this 50/50 is very heavily weighted towards forcing a low block, so it's really maybe more 60/40. All the other pseudo force techs I'm aware of have at least have sidestepping as a possible option so it's much closer to being a legit 50/50. I can't just pick 1p with Tina or Mila or Hitomi and get a stun if they don't sidestep, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm disadvantaged from there unless I counterhit. Now Helena needs that BKO 2k to have that property and I won't argue that. But having it as an option after the force tech is actually legit OP stuff.
Also: you get one guess vs. Helena. 9k is a mid for her and I know she's got other mid kick launchers. So she just mixes those up and you go up and back down into the first part of the vortex again. Is it a lot of damage? Fuck no, not until you start countering and she starts throwing and oh wait you're right back where you started after that too, aren't you?
Look, Mila does the same shit, but she can really only start it after 3f+k, a high threshold juggle, or a takedown, and you yourself have said the takedown break doesn't really pay off that well. Now imagine if Mila got a guaranteed sitdown stun from the takedown break if you landed 2p, which of course can't be sidestepped. That's what Helena gets from BKO 2k. Now imagine Mila gets mount after every launch, and also now 6f+p guarantees a launcher and not just advantage. Does this start sounding a little worse to you?
Also: you get one guess vs. Helena. 9k is a mid for her and I know she's got other mid kick launchers. So she just mixes those up and you go up and back down into the first part of the vortex again. Is it a lot of damage? Fuck no, not until you start countering and she starts throwing and oh wait you're right back where you started after that too, aren't you?
Look, Mila does the same shit, but she can really only start it after 3f+k, a high threshold juggle, or a takedown, and you yourself have said the takedown break doesn't really pay off that well. Now imagine if Mila got a guaranteed sitdown stun from the takedown break if you landed 2p, which of course can't be sidestepped. That's what Helena gets from BKO 2k. Now imagine Mila gets mount after every launch, and also now 6f+p guarantees a launcher and not just advantage. Does this start sounding a little worse to you?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Except Busa, Helena, and Genfu dominated tournaments. People did not "guess right" against them. It was a triangle of death, and everyone outside of that triangle failed miserably.
Also, it's not a 50/50. That would assume you have even odds of escaping and you don't. For every one option you take, at least two of Helena's options will hit you. Opt for a mid counter of any sort and you take an even greater gamble.
I said it as a joke to Mamba at first, but In fact by removing the human element and just rolling your face on the controller, the odds are likely to improve in Helena's favor, ironically. You would end up getting an entirely random and completely unpredictable result that is tilted in her favor via base probability.
You could even say, random mashers would have the greatest level of success.
Getting clarification on the BKO 2k issue. Apparently you do have to cancel into BKO with 2p+k afterwards, so this may not be quite so godawful. On the other hand, if she's in normal stance she can low throw, so that's goddamn great. Eh.
I don't think it's that it's not a 50/50 as low block does stop most of her options (low throw being back, I might be wrong there). But since she knows for a fact your best option is to crouch she can almost count on getting a mid mixup for free. It's a little like trying to throw escape against Wolf, for the VF players out there. How often do you ever escape neutral or back against him? You can't since BURNING HAMMER!!!!!!!, so he just does every other throw for free.
I don't think it's that it's not a 50/50 as low block does stop most of her options (low throw being back, I might be wrong there). But since she knows for a fact your best option is to crouch she can almost count on getting a mid mixup for free. It's a little like trying to throw escape against Wolf, for the VF players out there. How often do you ever escape neutral or back against him? You can't since BURNING HAMMER!!!!!!!, so he just does every other throw for free.
Unless I'm missing something, nobody else can get a stun setup after force tech from a tracking low that stuns on normal hit and a throw. Bass, Mila, Zack, Hitomi don't actually get stuns from their setup throws, so you at least have the option to block afterwards. I think Bayman and Tina do get free attacks but even then they don't have the tracking low option. Unless you counterhit, most of the tracking lows that come to mind actually end up negative on hit. It looks like Helena's got both tools and it really does make this a low-probability of escape, loopable situation and a guess deeply in her favor. If she didn't stun on normal hit this would be fine, but as it is this actually is dumb design.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Which is why I think lows shouldnt stun on NH, just stagger like hitomis sweeps.
So, she's basically DOA3 Bass?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I'm a little torn with Helena in specific on this, since she really really needs something good in the normal game and sidestep k gives that to her. But I think fixing her frame advantage on e.g. 3p4p on block and making the sweep behave like you describe or at least only give like +7 or so like Tina's 1k would be fine. It seems like a fair trade.
So, pretty much Bass if he was Scott Steiner. I bet Bass would've been close to her level if they had kept the 6KP juggle untechable pick-up.
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