Raansu
Well-Known Member
Ya AW is a monster with Hitomi. I'd say his Hitomi is much better than mine.
Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
Ya AW is a monster with Hitomi. I'd say his Hitomi is much better than mine.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I have the demo.
x Sypher x
Active Member
I can tell, lol =P
Master_Thespian
Active Member
5 frame startup on reversals is too much, we'd swing from one end of the spectrum to the other. The problem is with the active window more than anything. For reference, reversals in other fighting games look like:
VF: 1/10/30 (1/12/30 for Aoi)
TK: 2/8/25
SC: 1/10/?
I think similar startup times with a slightly more generous active window is the way to go (people use reversals for Aoi all the time).
VF: 1/10/30 (1/12/30 for Aoi)
TK: 2/8/25
SC: 1/10/?
I think similar startup times with a slightly more generous active window is the way to go (people use reversals for Aoi all the time).
x Sypher x
Active Member
What do you mean by slightly more generous? Do you mean like extending the active window by a few frames?
Master_Thespian
Active Member
When I said more generous, I meant more generous than the other games' reversals, not by more than what DOA already has. That's the reasoning behind what I suggested in the other thread.
Non holders: 3/12/25 (30 recovery for lows since they also duck highs)
Hybrid holders: 2/13/25 (30)
Holders: 1/14/25 (30)
This was balanced against throws still being slightly faster than attacks, but still fast enough to punish missed hold attempts.
Non holders: 3/12/25 (30 recovery for lows since they also duck highs)
Hybrid holders: 2/13/25 (30)
Holders: 1/14/25 (30)
This was balanced against throws still being slightly faster than attacks, but still fast enough to punish missed hold attempts.
-I share the same sentiment. For the record, A hold in Doa never executes in 0 frames, it is 1 frame. Also, Most people do not know that a reversal in VF have the same execution frames as Doa(with hit detection varying from 10-22 frames). Fast execution is not the problem, it is the lack of tools that can be used to limit the holds overall effectiveness in the game. The reintroduction of true combos, unholdable attacks, inescapable stuns, the removal of instant holding in-stun, and the higher risk of holding in Doa5 allow players to limit its effectiveness,curtail its use and allow for more guaranteed damage and situations.
Just felt that should be repeated as many people forget it.
Also, it's not just holds that have a 1 frame delay before going into the animation. From my basic tests in DOA3 it looked like
also was delayed. It's almost like it takes a frame to be sure that what you pushed is what you wanted to happen. Don't know/remember what other basic attacks had the one frame delay.
You guys always say that but I don't believe it. You claim that there's a one-frame animation before the active frames but I'm pretty sure that the hold is active during said animation. Going by your logic, wouldn't every single move in the game have another frame of initial animation?
Raansu
Well-Known Member
They do.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
They do, and it's true.
When a character is attacked off the ground in DOA 4, certain followups can only be blocked on wakeup, not held. That is because the block can be activated before they have finished the forced wakeup animation even though you don't see it. Holds don't work the same way, and take 1 frame to turn on.
Because it takes 1 frame to activate, that means the person would be vulnerable for that one frame. If they attempt to hold, they will be hit. If they attempt to block, they will successfully block. Ergo, they can block instantly on forced wakeup, but not hold.
When a character is attacked off the ground in DOA 4, certain followups can only be blocked on wakeup, not held. That is because the block can be activated before they have finished the forced wakeup animation even though you don't see it. Holds don't work the same way, and take 1 frame to turn on.
Because it takes 1 frame to activate, that means the person would be vulnerable for that one frame. If they attempt to hold, they will be hit. If they attempt to block, they will successfully block. Ergo, they can block instantly on forced wakeup, but not hold.
So then referring to holds as being "one frame" seems fairly redundant since everything has this extra frame.
Not everything has this extra 'frame'. Some attacks do and some attacks don't. In some instances the game takes an extra frame before it starts the initial frames of the attack implemented. It's just that Holds are one of such attacks. I noticed it when I was recording Hitomi's move list in doa3 and going frame by frame. On some attacks the button input would appear on the screen but the character wouldn't begin attack animation for an additional frame. In other cases the animation began on the same frame the input was registered.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
I'm not in favour of 5i on holds, but I agree with everything else - and with the confirmation that holds are actually 1i, combining ways to play around the holds, lower damage, and the increased recovery making holds risky when done incorrectly, I'm seeing even beginner players understanding and avoiding holding too much. (When I say beginner, I mean guys good at other fighting games who are trying out the demo at a gathering)
So I feel like the hold game is really going in the right direction. The only thing I'm not sure about, is this nagging feeling that 3 direction holds is still not enough. I think it will still be a good system, but I'd like to have a discussion on whether people would find 4-direction to be better. (I think with a bit more tightening of the input, so you don't walk forward/hold)
I know for sure that there are punch/kick mixups at mid height I could be doing, but have gotten held. I feel like this will not overcomplicate the system and provide a more complete sense of balance to attacker vs defender options in relation to holds.
Opinions?
Raansu
Well-Known Member
I think most people would agree that a 4 point hold would be better given the heavy amount of mid attacks. I would still like to keep the new advanced holds though. I like the concept of getting like, for example, Hitomi's mid kick launcher only through a mid kick advanced hold.
-The mixup between mid
and mid is very superficial. This mixup doesn't really deter the use of holds. What the player should be doing, is a mixup between a mid launcher and a throw. The launcher provides Damage, and the throw is punishment for you trying to hold the attack.