Dead or Alive 5 Alpha Demo System and Character Discussions

[Rikuto]

As CyberEvil was saying the other night.... "The fucking kick comes down like a bolt of lightning".

 

[virtuaPAI]

In other fighting games it's an option to guess. I rarely guess when playing SC or Tekken, and in the few instances in which I do guess, the consequences from my incorrect guess are minimal.

-That is a lie! Every single action and reaction both you and your opponent engage in is a guess. Neither you or your opponent know what the other will do exactly. The only time you do know with 100% surety, is when either you or your opponent cease to have the ability to make a choice. In other words, said action/reaction is guaranteed.This is fact pure and simple. All fighters abide by this, otherwise there will be no game for you to play.

In DOA you're forced to guess a good numbers of times per round, and if you guess wrong, you're taking big damage. There's no comparison at all between guessing in DOA and guessing in other fighting games....[Clarification taken from another thread]...Overall, the game does not feel competitive to me at all. Yes, there are times I can't counter, but it doesn't make a difference because they're not frequent enough. I never feel safe attacking and I always feel like I can guess my way out of my opponent's offense.

-I can completely understand why you feel this way. After playing a game like Doa4 for several years, you become jaded about the series. Doa4 provided no form of solid play, and did not meet the prerequisites of competitive play. The game played the total opposite of what a competent fighter should, which resulted in an abomination of a fighter. Out went:

• Being rewarded for having a good offense.
• Playing Safe.
• Proper Punishment.
• Proper Set-ups.
• Proper Tactics and Strategies

.
-Having experienced the more advanced play of Doa3.1, and it sharing almost all of the same elements in Doa5(demo),I for one do not feel the same way that you do. You are rewarded nicely for being safe and having a good offense. There are effective tactics, strategies and set-ups in the game. All I can say is that you need to "experience" it to actually see the differences from Doa4.

Every single person that I've discussed DOA whiff punishing with shares my opinion on it, except for the few people who have stated otherwise on this site (to my knowledge, you nor VPai are competitive in other fighters so...)......it's the fact that DOA has shorter recovery frames on whiff (compared to other fighters and to the execution frames of whiff punishing attacks), and 0-frame counters force you to risk a counterhold to whiff punish. The risk/reward is skewed and the recovery of attacks in DOA is less than that of other fighters...[Clarification taken from another post]...You'd think over two years of playing it would be enough to whiff punish, but I guess DOA is just that much harder to play than Tekken, SC, VF and all of the other fighters that allow me to whiff punish just fine.

-Hmmm,so we are now incompetent Doa players because we disagree with you?...Nothing new from you, same smug ass attitude that you displayed at Doacentral. How about it being You who is just wrong, and you not being able to effectively whiff punish. Every single thing that you listed as being a problem, is in fact present in VF. You can go check the characters frame data here: http://virtuafighter.com/commands/index.php. Its almost an exact replica to that of Doa's. Yet you can do it in that game, and for some reason have a problem in Doa. The thought is even more hilarious when you consider the fact that it is faster to dash in and out in Doa than it is in Vf(2-3 frames vs. 5-6).

 

[Allan Paris]

"Real Dogs"? I'm not sure how to even respond to that.... You just insulted hella people

For the ones that can take in that entire statement, and process it well, I haven't.

Yes, it's the alpha, that really doesn't change the fact that he gets killed by fast characters because he lacks good crushes. You're basing your entire argument offf assumptions.

What other fast characters is he pit up against at this moment for you to say that? Hitomi, standard speed as well as Ayane. You're assuming what fast characters can to do him, based off what you now (alpha build) and you may be correct.

My assumption is the same, in the line of me possibly being correct. It's not hard to see that Ryu Hayabusa is TN's golden boy, he has been a ridiculous character in all of the DOA's, 6 of them as of now. So my assumption is not to far off when I say that, "At the end of the day, Ryu Hayabusa will still be an OD character."

Anyways, I don't feel like arguing about what I am pretty sure is going to be. I am honestly more concerned with this game being fixed overall.

 

[Jefffcore]

For the ones that can take in that entire statement, and process it well, I haven't.

- You act like I'm not knowledgeable enough in DOA to give something worthwhile, thereby insulting me.
- Master obviously has the Demo
- I talk to Avi about this shit all the time, it's like a science

Who else do you need to break down Hayafknbusa?

It doesn't matter who he's pit against, he's slow. Saying you don't want to continue an argument then saying "about something I'm pretty sure will happen" is complete contradiction.

 

[Allan Paris]

If you think just the 3 of you guys is what it will take to fully push that character/game, fine. You obviously didn't process the whole statement well in the essence of what I was saying. Since you still can't get it, I will do it for you.

I said, "I am pretty sure the lot of the real dogs aren't playing it."

- I am "pretty sure" does not mean that I know for a fact that they aren't playing (I am confident in my mind but that does not make it a fact). It's safe to say that I am assuming (i could be right or wrong), going by that I haven't heard any noise from the lot of those players.
- The "lot" of something does not mean all. I know quite a few players that have it that know fully of what they're doing.
- Of course "real dogs" would pertain to the tops players, that can perform (playing-wise) at a high level. <maybe I should've added this in the statement for you.

I didn't make that statement from the perspective that it takes a team of players to break down a character. You're right, it doesn't take a lot of people to break down a character. If one knows all the science for the said character. However, playing-wise using that knowledge at a high level is completely different than just knowing numbers behind what's going on. Last time I checked you 3 aren't the only ones that sit and play with Busa, with a couple of you being high level players.

You wanted to take offense from that statement, but you shouldn't have, oh well, tough tity.

He's also slow in other DOA's, but yet, he still manages to be OD, am I wrong? If he does come out to be a normal character, I will be a very happy/shocked person. But going from the previous DOA's I doubt it.

At this point in time what is your argument with me? I wonder what I said wrong, oops I mean "insulting" next?

 

[x Sypher x]

I have to agree with AP on this Hayabusa shit. It does NOT matter how fast/slow he is/was or how fast/slow he will turn out to be in the end, the point he's trying to make is that in EVERY DOA he has been given tools that allows him to shit on just about every other character in the game. I mean take a GOOD look at him now and compare his speed to DOA2U. He was not very quick or slow, more like in the middle, but he was still a fucking beast. Even Bass in 3.1 for goodness sake, he's hella slow but he had tools that made him pretty dam good as well. So now you're complaining because Hayabusa got nerfed a bit and he's not as fast as you want him to be? Come on man, quit complaining. In the end, one way or another, he's still going to be ridiculously good. Let's face it, it WILL happen.

 

[avi]

Gota love that pp4pk though.

Frame advantage! woo!

i think it's a good move now but you can interrupt that shit with attacks easily cus there's a gap .. meaning i do 4pk and get 7pk pp6pk by hitomi >.< or advanced held cus again it's slow...not complaining just pointing out that in high lvl play that move will be shat on by players aware of it's weakness.. still glad he has some way off getting frame advantage..

 

[Raansu]

The thing is, Busa is literally a hybrid character now. He has so many tools that its retarded, so heaven forbid he has a few weaknesses... He's always been slow though, but thats never stopped him from being borderline OP.

 

[avi]

For the ones that can take in that entire statement, and process it well, I haven't.



What other fast characters is he pit up against at this moment for you to say that? Hitomi, standard speed.

* ALPHA DEMO* Hitomi's speed was buffed allot. her 7p ~11i 66p ~ 12i 6p~13i 6k~13i all of these moves go into her sweep and 7pp the second p is unholdable on hit and block... after 2p witch gives her +1 her 66p beats busas jab goes into a sweep, a launch or a high that leaves her at -1 witch will trade with busas 11i jab.. busa's 3p+k doesn't crush at 0 frames or well at all since i get jabbed and 7p out of it all the time, his 8p is shell of what it was.. super unsafe ... still busa is better then ayane and hayate in the alpha or so i have huuurd from master . he plays allot different since his ability to stun is lol against hitomi anyway. hayabusa is still a good character... just gets abused by hitomi .. still just the demo ^.^

 

[DrDogg]

So the general consensus is that Hitomi and Ayane are the best in the demo? I would agree that Ayane seems to be better than the other three, but I'm confused about Hitomi.

From my point of view, almost all of her low attacks can be blocked and punished, or countered on reaction. If you cancel out of almost any of her combos, she's punishable. Even though punishment is unlikely, at the very least you're at a big disadvantage. If you finish most of her combos, she's punishable, or you can duck the high and punish.

Both attacks from her parry are unsafe, and she can be thrown out of either. Her charge moves, that give her adv on block, are easily stepped.

What am I missing here that makes her so good? She seems pretty average to me, and behind Ayane when compared to the characters in the demo.

I'm reading this reply in a tone that you're disagreeing with me, would that be right? And if so, I don't know why you would be disagreeing as it's basically what you just quoted from me.

Maybe I'm confused by your statement, and perhaps you can clarify, but your example as I read it just further proves my theory: The 7 frames of disadvantage is not applied until the recovery animation of Hitomi's PP has completed, for which the blocking player is in a block stun until the first frame of that disadvantage. So since 5 < 7 then the throw (which is hitting on the 6th frame of Hitomi's disadvantage from free canceling) wins. If the PP was -5 or less disadvantaged then the attack after the free cancel would beat the throw.

Looks like we're saying the same thing, just with different terminology.

DrDogg feels that there is no whiff punishment in DOA.

I didn't say that. Some characters (Hitomi) have solid whiff punishment because of the speed and range of their attacks. However, a majority of the cast struggles with whiff punishment and there's a skewed risk/reward ratio on it because of 0-frame counters (if you're late on the whiff punishment you can get countered).

...3P+K(2P+K) doesn't crush mids...

...and his jabs are 11i.

Why does it need to crush mids? No crush attack in ANY fighting game should be able to crush mids.

Any fast character will shut that down and force him to Hold or Punish.

As I said before... block and punish. Why are you so against blocking?

-That is a lie! Every single action and reaction both you and your opponent engage in is a guess. Neither you or your opponent know what the other will do exactly. The only time you do know with 100% surety, is when either you or your opponent cease to have the ability to make a choice. In other words, said action/reaction is guaranteed.This is fact pure and simple. All fighters abide by this, otherwise there will be no game for you to play.

What? So when I block an unsafe attack and punish, I'm guessing? When I do AA, BB, 2A or 3K as a safe poke, I'm guessing? When go for guaranteed ground damage, I'm guessing? When I go for a ring-out throw, I'm guessing?

Guess I've been playing all wrong then, because I rarely guess... and when I do, I am often times safe or taking minimal damage if I guess wrong.

-Having experienced the more advanced play of Doa3.1, and it sharing almost all of the same elements in Doa5(demo),I for one do not feel the same way that you do. You are rewarded nicely for being safe and having a good offense. There are effective tactics, strategies and set-ups in the game. All I can say is that you need to "experience" it to actually see the differences from Doa4.

I've played the demo. Is it better than DOA4? Yes. Are all of the main problems with DOA4 still present? Absolutely.

I haven't played 3.1, so I can't compare it. But if the retail version of DOA5 plays like the demo, it will not be a widely accepted tournament game. The scene will be just like every other DOA game.

-Hmmm,so we are now incompetent Doa players because we disagree with you?...Nothing new from you, same smug ass attitude that you displayed at Doacentral. How about it being You who is just wrong, and you not being able to effectively whiff punish. Every single thing that you listed as being a problem, is in fact present in VF. You can go check the characters frame data here: http://virtuafighter.com/commands/index.php. Its almost an exact replica to that of Doa's. Yet you can do it in that game, and for some reason have a problem in Doa. The thought is even more hilarious when you consider the fact that it is faster to dash in and out in Doa than it is in Vf(2-3 frames vs. 5-6).

So everyone I've spoken to outside of this site, and the few on this site that agree with me are wrong, and you and the others are right? Now who's being smug? But don't worry, if DOA5 plays like the demo, you won't see much of me around these parts.

There's a problem here. Block frame data and whiff frame data are not the same. Also, in VF I don't have to worry about 0-frame counters against a vast majority of the cast, so the risk/reward on whiff punishing is very different.

- You act like I'm not knowledgeable enough in DOA to give something worthwhile, thereby insulting me.
- Master obviously has the Demo
- I talk to Avi about this shit all the time, it's like a science

Who else do you need to break down Hayafknbusa?

What environment are the three of you playing in? There's no training mode. There's no online play. There have been no "real" tournaments. You've each had a week or so to play and I'm assuming it's mostly been against the computer or playing people who have had the same amount of limited exposure to the game.

You think you can break down the character and find all of his weaknesses and strengths under those conditions? As I recall, Manny avoided playing in any DOA4 tournaments for the first month or two the game was out because he wasn't "ready". Sounds to me like he needs more than a week to figure his character out.

Also, do you think Hayabusa is the worst of the 4 characters in the demo? If not, then you're complaining because he's not the best? Would it hurt you that much to play Hayabusa as a mid-tier character? Must he be top-tier?

 

[Raansu]

Mostly Hitomi is just faster and they beefed up all her crushes. Stuff that used to only crush high now crushes both high and mid and she has new attacks that crush high's and mids, she just has a shit ton of crushes. She easily has the best crushes currently. Strings that used to be unsafe are either frame advantage or extremely safe now. Her best launch no longer charges either so thats a plus imo. She's much better than she was in 4.

 

[DrDogg]

Mostly Hitomi is just faster and they beefed up all her crushes. Stuff that used to only crush high now crushes both high and mid and she has new attacks that crush high's and mids, she just has a shit ton of crushes. She easily has the best crushes currently. Strings that used to be unsafe are either frame advantage or extremely safe now. Her best launch no longer charges either so thats a plus imo. She's much better than she was in 4.

Can you offer some notations?

Looking through her frame data, almost everything she has that's safe is high and generally comes at the end of a string. She has a couple of attacks that are 0 on block or advantage, but most of the advantage comes from charge moves, which are easily stepped or countered on reaction.

Also, which crushes do you find most useful and which crush mids (all mids or just high-mids)? I think DOA4 relied too much on crushes (Tekken 6 has the same problem), so I hope DOA5 changes that. I prefer SC5's crush system. You can crush, and it's good, but definitely not something that any character can just abuse... or that must be abused to win (Helena).

Speaking of Helena, I hope they revamp Bokuho Stance. I'd like something more strategic than, "mash down and hope the opponent doesn't go low". Something more along the lines of Lei-Fei (VF) or Ling (Tekken).

 

[virtuaPAI]

What? So when I block an unsafe attack and punish, I'm guessing? When I do AA, BB, 2A or 3K as a safe poke, I'm guessing? When go for guaranteed ground damage, I'm guessing? When I go for a ring-out throw, I'm guessing?

Guess I've been playing all wrong then, because I rarely guess... and when I do, I am often times safe or taking minimal damage if I guess wrong.

-I am sure I said "Every single action and reaction both you and your opponent engage in is a guess". If you are not making a guess, your opponent is. Why would your opponent do an unsafe attack? unless he thought you would get hit by it. He took a chance, a guess. Why would you do a safe poke? Cause you presume your opponent is just going to block as opposed to risk counter attacking, stepping, spacing..etc. It's an educated guess based on your competitive knowledge. Why would you go for a ring out throw? Cause you presume that it will be the most effective action compared to doing say a ring out attack. You can be absolutely wrong and not be successful. Once again It's an educated guess based on your competitive knowledge.

I've played the demo. Is it better than DOA4? Yes. Are all of the main problems with DOA4 still present? Absolutely.

I haven't played 3.1, so I can't compare it. But if the retail version of DOA5 plays like the demo, it will not be a widely accepted tournament game. The scene will be just like every other DOA game.

-Is the demo showcase a perfected game? No. However it shows great promise and is already far better than what Doa4 is.

So everyone I've spoken to outside of this site, and the few on this site that agree with me are wrong, and you and the others are right? Now who's being smug? But don't worry, if DOA5 plays like the demo, you won't see much of me around these parts.

-Having a disagreement about a game is not a problem. Trying to belittle someone and negatively classifying someone because you disagree is. Not once have either Ransuu or I pulled this card out on you. You either agree or disagree.

There's a problem here. Block frame data and whiff frame data are not the same. Also, in VF I don't have to worry about 0-frame counters against a vast majority of the cast, so the risk/reward on whiff punishing is very different.

-I know its not the same. The list show execution frames, hit detection frames and total frames. If you subtract both from the total, you will get the recovery frames. Doing this you will see that the recovery frames are pretty dead on to that of Doa's.

 

[DrDogg]

-I am sure I said "Every single action and reaction both you and your opponent engage in is a guess". If you are not making a guess, your opponent is. Why would your opponent do an unsafe attack? unless he thought you would get hit by it. He took a chance, a guess. Why would you do a safe poke? Cause you presume your opponent is just going to block as opposed to risk counter attacking, stepping, spacing..etc. It's an educated guess based on your competitive knowledge. Why would you go for a ring out throw? Cause you presume that it will be the most effective action compared to doing say a ring out attack. You can be absolutely wrong and not be successful. Once again It's an educated guess based on your competitive knowledge.

Really? With your definition of guessing, everything in life would be a guess. You know exactly what I'm referring to when I say DOA forces you to guess and other fighting games don't.

-Having a disagreement about a game is not a problem. Trying to belittle someone and negatively classifying someone because you disagree is. Not once have either Ransuu or I pulled this card out on you. You either agree or disagree.

So... saying that you're not competitive at other fighting games (which is the truth), is suddenly belittling and negatively classifying you? Wow...

-I know its not the same. The list show execution frames, hit detection frames and total frames. If you subtract both from the total, you will get the recovery frames. Doing this you will see that the recovery frames are pretty dead on to that of Doa's.

Not always. There are plenty of attacks that have more recovery on whiff because there's no block stun to pad the recovery.

I hope Rikuto can respect a post like that.
I agree wholeheartedly.

It doesn't matter if Rikuto can respect the post or not. The simple fact is that the FGC at large will not accept DOA5 as a competitive fighter if the final product plays like the demo. You'll be stuck with the same tournament scene of DOA4, but without the aid of CGS and it's looking like WCG is done as well.

 

[Jefffcore]

The thing is, Busa is literally a hybrid character now. He has so many tools that its retarded, so heaven forbid he has a few weaknesses... He's always been slow though, but thats never stopped him from being borderline OP.

What tools are you talking about? An air throw that he has to stun someone to use? His 4i and 6i throw. You`re gonna have to tell me what else he has that`s good.

 

[avi]

What tools are you talking about? An air throw that he has to stun someone to use? His 4i and 6i throw. You`re gonna have to tell me what else he has that`s good.

you left out izuna holds and the best thing he has .. lets all say it together! NINPO STANCE YEAH .....i wish there was a font to let people know you were being sarcastic.. like sarcastica

 

[Jefffcore]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NINPO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[DrDogg]

What tools are you talking about? An air throw that he has to stun someone to use? His 4i and 6i throw. You`re gonna have to tell me what else he has that`s good.

But... you can use air throw after a wall hit. Doesn't that do more damage than a combo after a wall hit?

Also, I will restate the fact that if you block, you'll be fine... and if Hayabusa is mid-tier, you'll live.

 

[Jefffcore]

Blocking is only one option and it only works for so long.... You still have to worry about getting thrown, then you need to start throwing attacks and his just aren`t that good. Could I, or someone win with him, sure; that`s not really the point. Even if he was given one mid crush he still wouldn`t be better than Hitomi is right now, it`s just a balancing tool.

 

[Berzerk!]

It doesn't matter if Rikuto can respect the post or not. The simple fact is that the FGC at large will not accept DOA5 as a competitive fighter if the final product plays like the demo. You'll be stuck with the same tournament scene of DOA4, but without the aid of CGS and it's looking like WCG is done as well.

I have to say I think this stance is nonsense. It is okay for you to hold this opinion because of your history with DOA; it gives you pause since you've seen negative impacts during DOA4, but this isn't DOA4 and honestly most players will take the game as new and experience it as a new game, so most of its mechanics will be taken on face value, as part of an overall new system, and the game will be played if people like it.

Even based on the demo, people like this game! The main challenge is not that it's DOA or that it has counter holds or any of the other small quibbles, its that its a 3D game and it has a block button. It's because the 2D crowd have to do a bit of work to change their mindset a little.

It's been most appealing to Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and Soul Calibur players I've shown it to. Some of the top Street Fighter players have given it a go and had a wild time casually with it, but they're busy concentrating on SFxT right now. By September release I think there will be a fair bit of anticipation for what will feel like a very fresh game.

I honestly think the game will be given a fair shake just on the spectacular look and mature visual update. Every other fighting game has flaws that annoy people but people play them anyway. I don't see any dealbreakers in DOA5 when it comes to the bigger picture.

It has no one overpowered character or mechanic, that's what annoys people and makes them think a game is "broken" and not good competitively (even then, they still played Original Marvel 3).

DOA5 will feel fair and will be fun to play, and good players WILL beat lesser skilled players. That makes it solidly competitive, certainly on its way to par or better with most if not all of the current batch of fighters.