Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
I think I'm officially done with expecting anything good to come out of DOA5. I've found a fighter that I'm really fond of, enjoying and can reward me for putting time into it. That game is VF5FS and, while I'm terrible at it, I'm going to focus on that rather than hoping DOA5 will turn out good because all the evidence we have points to that not happening. Come September, you'll all be very disappointed and I'll just be a better VF5FS player.

Yo Grape, Wanna play VF ? :D
Who do you play ? :D

Your fastest mid(assuming it does reach). If they sidestep you can guard.

Do you have a standing throw in Flamingo?
.

Unfortunately not. You only have 3 options when it comes to throw from flamingo:
- 2K into G+P (although good its quite slow and loses to jabs (on HIT only)
- 3G+K into G+P (on HIT OR BLOCK but slow as fuck and the timing is more strict than the 2K setup it seems)
- going for STEP stance into either G+P or hcfG+P ...
there are no direct throw setups from flamingo.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
And Bayman achieves CB faster than any other character!!

Multiple characters can CB in 2 hits, I'm pretty sure all of them can CB in 3 hits. It's just that Bayman's CB alone is good, and his options during a stun are very good.

*3 Combo to kill game, not 3 hit to combo game. Regardless, I don't really believe in the ways given to escape the combo, honestly, for the most part to begin with. What I meant, is I don't think it'd be good to balance a game on a shake mechanic. To be honest, I feel certain fundamentals with DOA just aren't there to support this game in general, if you know what I mean. There's bigger issues that should be addressed if bringing up the offense to this level is expected.

You have to pick you battles. No matter what DOA5 will not be the game that I personally want it to be. Most of the ideas I've shared are more of a compromise than anything else. It's not helpful to simply say, change everything. We have to pick and choose what needs to be changed and how it needs to be changed.

The problem is the STUN SYSTEM, and the tracking nature/string delay of the attacks. All these things have refused to move, and there's a reason why in many other fighters, the stun system isn't usable off a large amount of moves in the moveset.

Fix

The Stun System
Move Unsafety
String Delay
Free Canceling
Tracking
Sidestepping
Offensive Damage.

and then, last but not least..and by last, I mean LAST. (In order of steps to acheive, not most important. Because this without the rest would be absolutely ridiculous.)

Holding out of stuns.

The stun system probably isn't going to change. Holds are almost definitely not going to be taken out of stun. String delay and free canceling probably aren't going anywhere either. That's why I brought all of that up, but I'm not harping on it, because I've chosen by battles. Tracking, sidestepping and move safety can all be adjusted and that's what I'm focused on.

I agree that the problem is the stun system, but I don't believe that's going to see a major overhaul in DOA5, so it's a waste of time and effort to continue calling for a fix.

I guess we'll have to wait for DOA5.1/5.2... As someone else said, hopefully they won't burn all their patches on some stupidness instead of fixing what was necessary in the game.

If the changes you're calling for don't happen before DOA5 releases (which is unlikely), they won't come until at least DOA6. I would be SHOCKED if the stun system was revamped in a patch.

Well... this guy certainly snapped.

It happens when you're "forced" to deal with repeated ignorance. But that's why there's an ignore feature. You also rarely help the situation. In fact, I'd say more often than not, you do more harm than good in these competitive debates.

I remember DrDogg mentioning something about having a +12 frame advantage should guarantee your 11 frame startup move somewhere in the 8WR forum. Mr. Wah at the time gave him a logical answer for why he isn't getting it to connect but his comment was completely overlooked and the rant continued. The answer to this is PUSH BACK.

You need to go back and read that conversation, because it had nothing to do with push back.

That's not true, is it?
The first value for "Frame" is always static and does not change, the value for advantage obviously fluctuates.
Take Busa's Ninpo 6K for example (it's safe to asume that this move has a lot of active frames, so I picked this one):
No matter the distance the first value is always 19, the advantage on block is -8 up close and up to -2(maybe less... too lazy to work out the max distance) from far away. I never saw the first value change for any other attack...
So it's pretty obvious the value shows startup an not impact, but I agree that the game could state that clearly (but I think the same goes for the VF tool... you also have to figure out what the fields and color codes mean...)

Some attacks have 1-3 active frames in DOA5, all of the others are just 1 active frame. As you stated, the execution speed is always the same, but the recovery frames vary depending on when you connect the attack during the active frame window. I dislike this, but it is what it is.

My issue with how DOA displays frame data is that it doesn't taken into account the systems within DOA that prevent frame data from working like it does in every other fighting game.
 

just_me

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Some attacks have 1-3 active frames in DOA5, all of the others are just 1 active frame. As you stated, the execution speed is always the same, but the recovery frames vary depending on when you connect the attack during the active frame window. I dislike this, but it is what it is.

But advantage only changes slightly, because you connect with the opponent during a later active frame, recovery itself is still the same, or did they change this?
E.g. for a (completely fictional) 15(3)35 attack the recovery is always 35 frames, but advantage changes 2 frames in the attackers favor, if the attack connects during the 3rd impact frame, instead of the first.
I actually think that makes perfect sense. It's the same in VF, no?


My issue with how DOA displays frame data is that it doesn't taken into account the systems within DOA that prevent frame data from working like it does in every other fighting game.

You mean the "idle frame" after recovery for anything, but guard? They should change this anyway. It's not like it adds anything to the game... except awkward situations.
Displaying +11 instead of +12 would be incorrect though.
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
But advantage only changes slightly, because you connect with the opponent during a later active frame, recovery itself is still the same, or did they change this?
E.g. for a (completely fictional) 15(3)35 attack the recovery is always 35 frames, but advantage changes 2 frames in the attackers favor, if the attack connects during the 3rd impact frame, instead of the first.
I actually think that makes perfect sense. It's the same in VF, no?

Yes, and other fighting games such as Street Fighter as well. I can't speak for Tekken or Soul Calibur however.

Of course, I have no way of telling if they've changed it in DOA5, but that's how the game functioned in all previous DOAs.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
But advantage only changes slightly, because you connect with the opponent during a later active frame, recovery itself is still the same, or did they change this?
E.g. for a (completely fictional) 15(3)35 attack the recovery is always 35 frames, but advantage changes 2 frames in the attackers favor, if the attack connects during the 3rd impact frame, instead of the first.
I actually think that makes perfect sense. It's the same in VF, no?

Yeah, when I said recovery I meant the frame data post-block. It's the same as VF, but I think more attacks in VF are affected by this.

You mean the "idle frame" after recovery for anything, but guard? They should change this anyway. It's not like it adds anything to the game... except awkward situations.
Displaying +11 instead of +12 would be incorrect though.

It would be incorrect if they only changed the display, but something needs to change. It's going to throw people off if they see +12, but they can't connect an attack that's i12. In every other 3D fighter, when I'm at +12 I can land an attack that's i12 (unless there's push back or something).
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
It happens when you're "forced" to deal with repeated ignorance. But that's why there's an ignore feature. You also rarely help the situation. In fact, I'd say more often than not, you do more harm than good in these competitive debates.
I don't believe you, but let's agree to disagree.
 

AKNova7

Active Member
You have to pick your battles. No matter what DOA5 will not be the game that I personally want it to be. Most of the ideas I've shared are more of a compromise than anything else. It's not helpful to simply say, change everything. We have to pick and choose what needs to be changed and how it needs to be changed

The stun system probably isn't going to change. Holds are almost definitely not going to be taken out of stun. String delay and free canceling probably aren't going anywhere either. That's why I brought all of that up, but I'm not harping on it, because I've chosen by battles. Tracking, sidestepping and move safety can all be adjusted and that's what I'm focused on.

I agree that the problem is the stun system, but I don't believe that's going to see a major overhaul in DOA5, so it's a waste of time and effort to continue calling for a fix.

It's unfortunate. The only way the game will be good as a truly balanced game is with those steps. Otherwise, it's still going to be silly, full of incomplete ideas, band-aids, and be a cocktail of unfinished mechanics. Oh well, I guess. That god damn stun system though, it was possibly one of the worst ideas I've seen in games, the way it's set up. It's absolutely awful.

If the changes you're calling for don't happen before DOA5 releases (which is unlikely), they won't come until at least DOA6. I would be SHOCKED if the stun system was revamped in a patch.

I would too, honestly, but you never know. With enough support (and lack thereof), they definitely could do it, if they could find a way around having to change move animations to do it. All they probably need is enough people fed up ready to try something new. Their biggest concern would be the newer players.

I doubt it'll happen as well though. Team Ninja isn't fond of risky moves like that these days to help their product. I wonder if they'll care when Super Smash Bros is deemed more competitive than them...again.
 

MASTER

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I have a few moments to discuss some of the things in my article.

Critical burst I said feels like an unnecessary addition to DOA5 but here is the reason that keeps coming back to my head(It was mentioned in the original article as well). Too much risk to achieve it. I personally dont mind CB's much because you are getting rewarded for THAT risk, however i feel like Team Ninja took a step backwards here. If DOA5 implemented DOAD's Hit statuses and the attributes that come with them (Better launches, Better stuns that prevent holding or shaking like DOA5, etc.) then Critical burst to a lot of you would not make much sense either.

Now i do understand that a lot of you never owned, never played and never broke down DOADimensions. So I am starting to understand why some of you don't meet eye to eye with me on things dealing with CB's for DOA5. Some of you may say that DOAD is 'exactly' like DOA4 or 4.2 or whatnot but it really isn't and thats not the point im trying to get across here. The point I'm trying to get to is that you were rewarded a heck of a lot more for stunning someone on counter hit and especially high counter hit. Not to mention that the frames for attempting to hold were the same length as DOA5, 35F. The reward you got for launching someone on Counter Hit was high and Hi-Counter hit was like DOA2. Which we all know was a very high launch. Here is the main point though, in DOAD if you CH or HCH someone with something like 6P/6K and launched afterwards then your opponent only had 1 chance to stop the damaging combo that was about to take place because of the hit status properties implemented. With CB's they may have 3 to 4 chances depending on the character.

If Team Ninja does not implement DOAD's Hit statuses and the attributes that come with them then i can see CB's worth having. However, if i could, i would probably add more CB moves because using the same move just seems risky and repetitive. Especially for the amount of risk you're taking. Again i personally would like to see DOAD's mechanics come back for DOA5 on top of most if not all the things that DOA5 has now. It felt more like the older DOA's where juggles and airthrows were easier to come by with a lot less risk and felt really rewarding for making custom combos or whatnot. I believe we all agree that this is what we want but with DOA staying true to itself. (Trust me when i tell you that this is WAY better than CB's when comes to things like good set ups or guaranteed damage)

So the question would be, what are the chances of Team Ninja implementing such mechanic? Time is short and there isn't many things we can change anymore right? Well the chances are actually quite high. From speaking with them they were already planning to add that mechanic for E3 but held back for whatever reason. I told them that they should bring it back because DOA5's stun system is still somewhat similar to DOA4's when it comes to the amount of risk you have to take for a high launch, good juggle and/or CB. Like I said, it felt like a step backwards after coming from DOAD.

Again this mechanic was already going to be in the E3 build but they held back and the vibe i got from them felt like it would only take a flip of a switch to apply that mechanic. I can see why it wouldn't take much effort. It was already in the game and the attributes are already there. This is something I would fight for because it makes sense and it doesn't take away from DOA at all while at the same time catering to folks that want to take less risk. It definitely caters to smarter play. Not to mention that it's still possible to get in the final product. If for some reason this does NOT make it into the final build then keeping CB's without the potential of being done twice but with more moves at different hit levels (high,mid-P,mid-K..) would make sense to me. (If you didn't play DOAD thoroughly, it will be hard to understand where im coming from but i believe i explained it the best i could)

Now let me explain my comments dealing with stuns giving advantage and adding a few more. I want to make it clear that this applies to all character but also that i personally wouldn't want to add a bunch of them either. just a few that aren't low sweeps (like 1 or 2 depending on the character). Some people have the issue that hitting someone on normal hit either leaves you recovering (meaning negative frames) or maybe puts you at about +1 or +2 which to some folks isn't much. I would prefer to hit and stun someone on normal hit and get +8/9F given from the stun because two key things happen here. One the opponent feels vulnerable because they cannot attack and have the sense of not being able to block for those frames. The Second thing is that when they hold there hold damage is lowered and their recovery is increased by several frames. That to me is real advantage in DOA since there is a higher risk now in play for attempting to hold the following move/attack.

If someone is +2 on normal hit with NO stun or even +8 with no stun, their hold damage can still take the full amount and they recover faster. This is why having a few moves that stun on normal hit that are not low and hit mid is a better alternative. If you think about it carefully this is much better for when you hit someone on normal hit with that particular move. Where as if you leave it how it is now you are either recovering or have mild advantage. Again not every move needs to stun but i personally don't understand why certain stuns LIKE the ones im talking about were taken out. A perfect example is Hayates 3K. That made no sense to me since it didnt grant anything and it was only PLUS frames with a higher risk for the person that held. Now add the Hit statuses from DOAD to this equation and the attacker has even more options if the defender was foolish enough to try to attack. The argument can still be made that the attacker can hold and this is still true but in situations like these there is an added risk for holding that most people overlook.

I'm starting to run out of time but i will comment more later.

MASTER
:hayabusa:
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member

That's great and all that you played the blood out of DOAD (an unpopular handheld game). With the CB situation you can't hold out of the stun you are put in. You can only slow escape then block, as far as I know. This DOAD system allows '1' hold before any real damage is done. The CB situation allows 0, before real damage is done.

Alex, I'll take Critical Bursts for $1000.

So what that they are repetitive, the same 1 or 2 moves. You're not complaining about the 6 ways Busa can get an Izuna Drop. From 2.1 different ways, holds and throws and with one actually coming from an attack string. That's pretty repetitive to me, seeing that you pull them off frequently. Everything you do along with everyone else is repetitive. Who says that people will only go for the CB, it's called a mix up game. Only scrubs will keep going for them once they find out what they can do. They will also be punished accordingly for spamming them.

You are the only person that sat and broke that game down like that. So excuse me if I am not willing to jump out the window on just your research alone. I am not saying you are right or wrong. Just that, I'd like a plethora of scientists (more than 1 and myself in the mix of things) to work on a theory before I am willing to take in anything.

It also sucks that you can speak for the entire community when you are not really a part of it, as far as I can see. This is where the community is, you pop up only when enough shit is thrown your way, and then you disappear. Your fans, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and whatever other social site does not count. DOAW and FSD is where the community is. I don't need to speak on TKP much, you are there, so you know what it is, ghost town.

No one here or at DOAW is advocating for DOAD's system, so why are you doing it, by yourself for yourself? If you truly represent US (THE COMMUNITY) then please do that; listen to us and roll with our collective ideas on the game. If not, then some new representatives need to be chosen, I have a few in mind. All I read in your post was, "I personally would like, I told them, and what I prefer." All of this stuff you are asking for, IS ALL FOR YOU. This is pretty selfish to me.


Now let me explain my comments dealing with stuns giving advantage and adding a few more. I want to make it clear that this applies to all character but also that i personally wouldn't want to add a bunch of them either. just a few that aren't low sweeps (like 1 or 2 depending on the character). Some people have the issue that hitting someone on normal hit either leaves you recovering (meaning negative frames) or maybe puts you at about +1 or +2 which to some folks isn't much. I would prefer to hit and stun someone on normal hit and get +8/9F given from the stun because two key things happen here. One the opponent feels vulnerable because they cannot attack and have the sense of not being able to block for those frames. The Second thing is that when they hold there hold damage is lowered and their recovery is increased by several frames. That to me is real advantage in DOA since there is a higher risk now in play for attempting to hold the following move/attack.

The advantage you want on hit and stun. I want that on block, something along the lines of +3~8, numbers can definitely be played with here. Just as long as they give a real advantage, only thing to beat the user of frame advantage should be a hold or sidestepping to avoid it. It should be a given that I am at major frame advantage on hit and stun. With holds the way the are, even with them being nerfed. You still have to worry about being held, so your advantage is 50/50 in the stun game.







P.S. I have yet to see how CB's are 'unnecessary'.
 

MajesticBlue

Active Member
The Doad Stun system was very good imo. 4 point would have made the game even better. From what I understand Doa5 is actualy adding an additional 50 50 to the mix. Like with Bayman in Doad for example. Off of a counter hit 3K the stun is so heavy that its only one 50 50. Its either QcfP for 95+ damage or if they slow escape and hold he is in range for several OH. So in my head that sounds alot like the whole you can just slow escape and hold the second cb. argument.

I guess either way your still guessing after the first stun so maybe it boils down to being the same thing. Most heavy stuns in Doad are the same. Since you get counter hit launchers after after the initial stun it always launch or throw anyway.

The cb does offer more of a reward though with the whole power blow set ups and that's fine. Imo I dont see what it would hurt to have both. (Unless Iam missing something about the new stun system that makes it beter then 1 guess for on average 80ish damage? 2 guess if you count the first stun.)
 

MASTER

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
That's great and all that you played the blood out of DOAD (an unpopular handheld game). With the CB situation you can't can't hold out of the stun you are put in. You can only slow escape then block, as far as I know. This DOAD system allows '1' hold before any real damage is done. The CB situation allows 0, before real damage is done.

Alex, I'll take Critical Bursts for $1000.

Wait what? Ok, Let me ask you a simple question so you can understand clearer since its obvious you DONT and im currently limited on time. What is the minimum amount of stuns needed to get to a CB Allen Paris, assuming you don't want to become predictable and use the same move twice? Can you answer that for me?

(EDIT: I'll answer the rest when i have more time)

MASTER
:hayabusa:
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Too much risk to achieve it.

CB isn't any more risky than a launcher.

If DOA5 implemented DOAD's Hit statuses and the attributes that come with them (Better launches, Better stuns that prevent holding or shaking like DOA5, etc.) then Critical burst to a lot of you would not make much sense either.

DOAD was never tested in tournament play. I won't say it's a good or bad system, but there's no reason to remove CB just because you want them to add the DOAD system.

The point I'm trying to get to is that you were rewarded a heck of a lot more for stunning someone on counter hit and especially high counter hit. Not to mention that the frames for attempting to hold were the same length as DOA5, 35F.

90% of the time you stun someone in DOA, it's going to be CH or better. And the 35F counterhold is still too much, but that's not a fight I'm willing to have at this point.

Here is the main point though, in DOAD if you CH or HCH someone with something like 6P/6K and launched afterwards then your opponent only had 1 chance to stop the damaging combo that was about to take place because of the hit status properties implemented. With CB's they may have 3 to 4 chances depending on the character.

Every character can CB in 3 hits or less. Most characters can CB in two hits. A good number of characters can use a sit down stun on the second hit, then CB on the 3rd. In most of the stated situations, the opponent only has one chance to stop the combo. Ideally, they wouldn't have any chance once they're been hit, but again... that's not a fight I'm going to take on at this point.

I suggest you learn the CB system better before commenting on it. You seem to lack a complete understanding of how it works.

However, if i could, i would probably add more CB moves because using the same move just seems risky and repetitive.

...keeping CB's without the potential of being done twice but with more moves at different hit levels (high,mid-P,mid-K..) would make sense to me. (If you didn't play DOAD thoroughly, it will be hard to understand where im coming from but i believe i explained it the best i could)

No, no, no, no, no! Doing that turns CBs into the DOA4 stun game. I can't believe you'd even offer this as a possible solution. The rest of your post I can deal with, but this portion just shows me how little you know about what makes a good competitive fighter.

I would prefer to hit and stun someone on normal hit and get +8/9F given from the stun because two key things happen here.

I'd rather have frame advantage than a stun. You can't counter out of frame advantage, you can counter out of a stun.

If someone is +2 on normal hit with NO stun or even +8 with no stun, their hold damage can still take the full amount and they recover faster.

...A perfect example is Hayates 3K. That made no sense to me since it didnt grant anything and it was only PLUS frames with a higher risk for the person that held.

You should learn how to properly use frame advantage. You'd rather give people the opportunity to use a counterhold instead of taking your frame advantage. Play a 3D fighter other than DOA and then come back and analyze what you've said here. It sounds ridiculous.

I'm starting to run out of time but i will comment more later.

I'm deadly serious when I say that I would not play DOA5 if Team Ninja listens to you. What you're asking for is DOA4.2 and that's simply not acceptable. I want DOA5 to have a healthy tournament life, and your vision of DOA5 will result in a repeat of DOA4... at best.

With the CB situation you can't can't hold out of the stun you are put in. You can only slow escape then block, as far as I know.

You can slow escape the sit down stun. Once you hit a CB, you can't do anything... at all.
 

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'm deadly serious when I say that I would not play DOA5 if Team Ninja listens to you. What you're asking for is DOA4.2 and that's simply not acceptable. I want DOA5 to have a healthy tournament life, and your vision of DOA5 will result in a repeat of DOA4... at best.
Another $10k+ handed to him? Not so bad in his eyes. I could see why he would want that. Plus he already got $1k for DOA5 so... nine more to go.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
Wait what? Ok, Let me ask you a simple question so you can understand clearer since its obvious you DONT and im currently limited on time. What is the minimum amount of stuns needed to get to a CB Allen Paris, assuming you don't want to become predictable and use the same move twice? Can you answer that for me?

Well, lets see. I can tell that they seem to be character specific, on how many hits it takes to achieve it. That is if you choose to play with the stun game. Bayman does this in one hit on CH, that's fair because he's slow and not meant to play with the stun game. The characters who are quicker seem to have to work for it a little harder, this also fair. Though certain buffs for characters need to be made because of that. Giving Kasumi one move (which is highly predictable you can also SS it) to cause the sit-down stun for the CB is fair. She's quick and shouldn't be allowed to achieve the CB situation as easy as Bayman.

The defender can still hold the move before they are put in the CB situation. Even when they are in the CB situation, SE'ing then blocking is an option to stop the next attack. That is generous enough.

Sorry for the tangent. . . . To answer your question though.

Only 1 stun needs to be achieved. Then the move that causes the CB needs to be done twice in a row once you are stunned (considering that you didn't force a sit-down stun). Then that's murder she wrote. If player lets that happen to them constantly, then so be it. Good players on the other hand, will make their opponent add a lot of finesse to their CB game. This is where the highly fearful mix up game comes into play. Do I go for the guaranteed killer or do I give you a chance to breathe (holding my launcher)?

Why do you want to avoid real guaranteed situations. Can you answer me that?
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
To put one measly point about DOAD in, Allen said above why is master advocating when noone else is... honestly, a lot of us forgot or did not go indepth enough on that game, and Manny may have a point about its benefits that we do not have. Just because the community isn't requesting it, doesn't mean its not in the community's interest to draw attention to the system in that game, or that the community is educated enough on it to have come up with it "ourselves".

What do we know about Shimbori's thoughts comparing what he did in DOAD and DOA5? It would be interesting to know what he sees as the key differences.

I remember the stun/launch (and generous launch heights) in DOAD as being much clearer rewards for the attacker than in DOA4, so while I don't think the CB, Powerblow or other systems should be removed from DOA5, it would be nice to make a comparison or see the developers perspective.
 

MrMoon360

Well-Known Member
DoA is repetitive lol. Literally all of the same moves are used with every character everyone plays. .
Lol
The word repetitive just doesn't need to be used concerning fighting games. Muscle memory plays a part for a reason, just like real martial arts.
Its not necessarily bad to be repetitive in this way.
 
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