Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

[d3v]

Maybe the point of the series is to be a terrible competitive fighter. Yeah I know, it's kinda hard to admit, but think about it for a sec. DOA was all about being a more accessible Virtua Fighter right from the start, just look at DOA1, it was basically a poor man's VF.

Accessibility has nothing to do with being less competitive. The issue revolves around "guessing" and "risk vs. reward." In other words, in its worst versions, DOA rewards a good player with more risks.

 

[AKNova7]

Wow, just. . . . wow. Why do you think we are or the extreme competitive players are arguing with (almost) his every suggestion? Not for the fuck of it, I can assure you that.

Let me ask you something. When it's time to vote, do you ever vote for something just to be in the majority? If you do, you're defeating the entire concept of democracy and compromise.

The game either has good all around movement or not. I know it did, as well as others who spent time with it.

Things aren't this black and white. While something can be exceptional in some cases, it can be lackluster in others.

Adding frames to it will defeat its original purpose; stopping moves on reaction. The move is not to be relayed on 100%. I don't care what SC has or doesn't have. We are talking about DOA. The reversals in VF will get you slaughtered mercilessly if you try to rely on them. I play with Pai, trust, landing reversals in that game is not what you are making them out to be. Hell, even if I managed to land one, the shit honestly isn't worth it.

Reversals are character specific and, I pretty much just explained that deal to you. In DOA holds are crazy, I suggest you play the game and see what everyone else sees.

So, if you only care about what DOA has or doesn't have, then why am I the only person you say something along those lines to? Plenty of people compare other games with DOA on these very forums, and I don't see you pursuing them, just saying. Holds got nerfed for being crazy anyway, the only thing you should really be complaining about them for in the first place is their active duration, now that their damage got smacked around. Being able to hold in stun is a complaint about the stun system, not the hold system.

Tell me, what fighting game have you played besides DOA. That has i0 move that lets you comeback from losing whenever you want? Get back to me on that whenever you find the game. HAHAHA, what DOA are you playing where you're at the much disadvantage on block (if anything the attacker is at that much of disadvantage)? I will wait for you to find that version of DOA for me. DOA 3.1 did a great job with frame advantage, but I doubt you are talking about that game because it wasn't as extreme as you are saying it is.

Comeback from losing? I think a better term in this regard would be regain momentum. Whenever you want would call it free, as in how it was in DOA4. These holds are nowhere NEAR the place they were. Obviously I wasn't talking about 3, I'd never talk shit about that game. 4 was the one with the tear-worthy poke game. I don't understand why you are blowing things so far out of context. If you want to address the PROBLEM, then address the PROBLEM. I understand there's some things that you CAN'T do at this point in production, but you can still talk to the community what you, you know, actually think is the problem.

What REALLY seperates Virtua's counter mechanic from DOA's, is three things. The active window, the damage, and then everything ELSE but the counter system. Let me explain. In Virtua Fighter, if someone throws an attack that's negative 13 on block, and you throw a 14 frame attack, you CAN get countered. Unless there's some little trick in Virtua Fighter I don't know about that would dematerialize my results. That would make Virtua's counter system a 1 frame counter as opposed to DOA's 0 frame counter system.

In DOA, the active window is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Virtua's. I don't know specific numbers on just how much, but to match this, let's use Aoi's stance mechanic as the counter system equivalent, here. So we can actually have Virtually the same active window.

The last thing that separates the two games is how the game is PLAYED in general. The neutral game is MUCH stronger in Virtua FIghter, allowing multiple offensive and defensive options on both sides. While they don't have FSD, the neutral game is still much stronger in that game. Counters by themselves, outside of their damage in DOA4 never were, and still aren't the problem. What actually needs to happen is DOA needs to become a game that balances out the counter mechanic the game is trademark for in the first place, instead of just containing the mechanic in there. Counters don't need buffs, but the neutral game, and everything else needs work. Lots of it.

The systems of how counters work are more similar than you'd like to admit, the things AROUND the counter system is what really makes the difference between DOA and Virtua's reversal systems. Virtua's neutral game dominance smacks the counters to a specific niche, even WITH much slower attack mix-up transitions than DOA. Sure, DOA has sidestepping now, but not only is it nowhere NEAR as effective as Virtua Fighter's variant, the neutral game is also worse, and while, as he told me before, DrDogg mentioned backdashes vary per character, I still haven't seen the backdash improvement overall that I'm looking for, and he even mentioned a character implemented from Virtua Fighter to show what he meant by notable backdashes in the game.

The game AROUND counters in DOA makes counters so ridiculous. With a good neutral game, and an arsenal of moves safe from punishment in strings, they could be cut down to size. And there's your example.

 

[d3v]

The last thing that separates the two games is how the game is PLAYED in general. The neutral game is MUCH stronger in Virtua FIghter, allowing multiple offensive and defensive options on both sides. While they don't have FSD, the neutral game is still much stronger in that game. Counters by themselves, outside of their damage in DOA4 never were, and still aren't the problem. What actually needs to happen is DOA needs to become a game that balances out the counter mechanic the game is trademark for in the first place, instead of just containing the mechanic in there. Counters don't need buffs, but the neutral game, and everything else needs work. Lots of it..

I believe that this is something worth looking into.

 

[Scott]

Maybe the point of the series is to be a terrible competitive fighter. Yeah I know, it's kinda hard to admit, but think about it for a sec. DOA was all about being a more accessible Virtua Fighter right from the start, just look at DOA1, it was basically a poor man's VF.

All of us who love it and have played other fighters know it can be though. We wouldn't all be here if we didn't love the game and still hope for a time when we can tell people we play doa and not get scoffed at.

 

[TRI Mike]

While I completely agree with Erik and Bryan on what should be done with DOA5. I still think not everything Manny said should be discarded. Even if he's completely wrong on his opinions about how DOA5 should work, he's still the best player of the franchise out there and even won the E3 IPL thing easily without using a single CB-into-guaranteed-combo. The problem I see here is that Emmanuel only plays DOA and doesn't seem to know much about other 3D fighters like Virtua or SC and that's where Erik and Bryan have the advantage with their opinions.

Manny should pick SCV and VF5FS and play them competitively to understand what makes those games good and why DOA5 needs the stuff we always talk about. But there's no reason to panic, the game is less than three months away so I don't think anything Manny says will change the game drastically to transform it into DOA4.2

I agree with most of Bryan and Erik have said and a couple of things Manny mentioned.

 

[Scott]

Calling Manny the best in the franchise is an opinion few will share with you.

 

[Rikuto]

Manny won at E3 for a lot of reasons. Let's not give him any more credit he doesn't deserve... lord knows he has more than enough of that. I know I keep saying I'm trying to dial back on the negativity but when people keep drawing attention to the root of the problem you guys are forcing me to call it for what it is -- Manny.

But you're right, and I'm not rejecting what he is saying just because it's coming from his mouth. I'm rejecting it because it's wrong, and I've already said why it's wrong (primarily because it shits all over game theory and leads to randomized outcomes).

And because it's coming from his mouth. He knows how to thrive in a random environment (which is pretty much what he was given at E3 with the lack of experience we all had fyi) and this would be beneficial to him personally and very few others. Some people have a gift for that kind of terrible gameplay, most people don't. He said himself that he can't stand seeing the same move twice, that should tell you all you need to know about his priorities when it comes to making a game solid vs random.

The greater FGC, as well as the majority of casuals, whether they realize it or not, dislike overly random gameplay. Even a casual will be constantly trying to gain some kind of control over the match on a subconscious level, but the architecture he is talking about destroys any sense of that. This would just piss everybody off, hardcore and casual alike. For someone like Manny, who has it built into his brain to just cycle through every single move in his movelist randomly rather than pay attention to anything like a normal person would, these changes would help him greatly. Everyone else, who plays in a more traditional non-fringe manner, would hate the game.

I want to increase the enjoyment of the game across the board, not piss everybody off.

 

[Berzerk!]

I think your comments are on point there Rikuto, great overall points. But I don't think even Manny likes to cycle through the moveset, he's a classic power gamer who is taking advantage of enhance which favour his playstyle, and used the same sets of moves repeatedly at e3. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing but it's a slightly different aspect of the characterization. He may say he wants randomized variety but plays the most efficient game as does any competitive player - he just used advantages mixups thanks to hayabusa guard break and crushes.

As for the suggestion he should play sc5 and vf5, I'd say put sc5 to one side, Namco logic is a little different and operates on a different set of allowable exceptions. Vf5 though, everyone on this board should be playing to self educate, it's really very beneficial to understand how good a fighter can be

 

[Rikuto]

I think your comments are on point there Rikuto, great overall points. But I don't think even Manny likes to cycle through the moveset, he's a classic power gamer who is taking advantage of enhance which favour his playstyle, and used the same sets of moves repeatedly at e3. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing but it's a slightly different aspect of the characterization. He may say he wants randomized variety but plays the most efficient game as does any competitive player - he just used advantages mixups thanks to hayabusa guard break and crushes.

As for the suggestion he should play sc5 and vf5, I'd say put sc5 to one side, Namco logic is a little different and operates on a different set of allowable exceptions. Vf5 though, everyone on this board should be playing to self educate, it's really very beneficial to understand how good a fighter can be

No, that is exactly how he plays. Manny cycles through moves in a very random, but pre-planned way... Granted he will use the same set of juggles because he only has so many launchers, and so many ways to start a stun, whatever... but his methodology behind everything he does is uniquely random with a only a few things that are constant. His subconcious need to end every round in the flashiest possible manner (be it izuna drop or power blow) for example is ridiculously easy to understand compared to the rest of his game.

I understand the mind game necessary to beat him, for example, and that is any time you stop an attempt of his to do something you can damn well guarantee he will do something different the next time around. That's fine and dandy, it's just mixing things up (ie being random as hell) in a highly efficient manner. What he is asking for in this particular article is for every option out of that mixup to do ridiculous amounts of damage, and have every single one of them scary as hell.

The greatest weapon you can give someone who excels at managing the mixup meta-game efficiently (and basically nothing else) is to make all of his mixup options equally dangerous and trump every other option in the game. Giving him instant launch height and multiple ways to CB would make him incredibly good, and that's why he wants this. The problem is that he either doesn't see how this damages the base of the game (ie game theory and unequal options) or he simply doesn't care.

I'm not sure which it is, although I would seriously hope it's the former (and i doubt that honestly). Either way, if the game is made this way it can only hurt how it ends up being received by both casuals and hardcore players. It would be DOA 4 turned upside down, but it would definitely be DOA 4.

 

[DrDogg]

Yeah, you shouldn't be able to slow escape out of stuns. Any of them. What's the deal with slow escaping anyway ? What a dumb mechanic, why suddently give players an alternative to defensive holds ? DOA4 was such a crappy game. Shouldn't be able to escape stuns, at all. Oh but then stuns would become overpowered, there are so many of them. Well then, just reduce the number of stun moves. Along with string delay, what's the deal with that ? Dumb mechanic. Let's take that out too.
Oh but then the game becomes VF with counters... but I already have that game on my shelf, I can play it whenever I want to.

Let's just strip down DOA of all that sets it apart so it becomes a pale copy of VF. That'll do some good.

Love all the sarcasm, but let me see if I'm following you correctly.

I mention that "it's not a huge concern" but I'd like to see SE removed from one stun, a stun that already doesn't allow you to counter, and you blow up like this?

Perhaps next time you should ask questions to understand the reasoning behind the statement instead of just blowing up? Might make for better conversation.

Are most cb moves mid? Also lets say you max out the stun threshold and you just go for a launch mixup instead. What launch height do you get? If it followed the Doad stuns it would be a Hi counter blow height.

Some CB attacks are mid, others are high. I have yet to see a low CB. Some are safe, some are not. Some stun on normal hit (not a CB stun, just a normal critical stun), some do not. Kokoro's CB is a sabaki, which actually hurts her a little bit because it's slow, and under normal circumstances it doesn't matter if your CB sabaki's because you're using it when the opponent is stunned.

A max threshold launch would be at a height where you can get just about any juggle you want. Keep in mind, not every character needs a high launch height to get maximum damage.

If everybody only has one cb move the mixup would be between that and your best launcher thats not the same hit type as the cb. On stuns that sitdown or crush highs it limits some options. The other stuns at cb time would be a three way mixup that either guarantees damage or they try and hold your cb but you launch them at hi counter height. I could kinda see how that is too much.

I think you're over-thinking the situation. Based on the E3 build, if you're going to use a CB, it's going to be either the second attack after an initial stun with a CB, or the third attack after a sit down stun. If a CB is used in any other situation, it's no different than using a launcher or any attack that would extend the stun.

If you connect with a sit down stun, you immediately limit your opponent's options. That's EXACTLY what we want out of a competitive DOA5. Once in a sit down stun your options are limited to slow escaping, which leaves you open to a possible throw or "hopefully" a frame trap. The offensive player has forced the defensive player to make a smart play or suffer the consequences. That's a rare situation to see in DOA4.

So the changes in the buffer system make it possible to back dash cancel into a guard without returning to neutral? That is a major buff to movement if so. If they wanted the game to have more space control it would be nice to see getting hit while backdashing not be a hi counter. Being able to cancel into a guard should remedy this though. I wonder if with the new normal hit launchers could be used for wiff punishment........even though they are few and slow.

As long as you don't press Guard and Back at exactly the same time, you won't get a counter (this was not the case in the Alpha demo). For a basic backdash cancel, this isn't a problem. If you want to do more advanced movement, you need to have at least decent execution. I like that.

I don't see NH launchers being used much for whiff punishment at the moment. Most NH launchers are unsafe and not particularly fast. It'd be fairly risky to go for a NH launcher as whiff punishment... or any time for that matter.

That actually brings up a point about what's lacking in DOA. There aren't really different levels of punishment. In just about any other fighter you have minimal punishment (jabs), moderate punishment (more than jabs, but not a launcher), or big punishment (launcher). In high-level DOA, all you have is throw punishment. Some throws do more damage, but that's not the same as the varied levels of punishment in other fighters.

This makes it difficult to gauge risk/reward on some attacks. If I could toss out a NH launcher that was only jab punishable, I'd be more inclined to use it. However, in DOA an attack is either safe or unsafe.

Holds got nerfed for being crazy anyway, the only thing you should really be complaining about them for in the first place is their active duration, now that their damage got smacked around. Being able to hold in stun is a complaint about the stun system, not the hold system.

- Quite a few characters can kill you in 3-4 counterholds in DOA5.
- You can still use counterholds to avoid high attacks, while countering low attacks.
- You can still use counterholds to escape situations that would normally offer guaranteed damage in other fighters.
- You can still play the DOA4 stun/forced guessing game because, while the counterhold recovery is longer, as soon as you get hit mid-stun, the recovery is canceled and you can counter again.

While I agree that the stun system is an issue, it's clear that the counterholds are still a problem.

What REALLY seperates Virtua's counter mechanic from DOA's, is three things.

You forgot the most important thing. VF doesn't have a universal counter system. The counter system in VF is more of a character match-up strategy than anything else.

...DrDogg mentioned backdashes vary per character, I still haven't seen the backdash improvement overall that I'm looking for, and he even mentioned a character implemented from Virtua Fighter to show what he meant by notable backdashes in the game.

I mentioned Akira because he has a really good backdash. That doesn't mean other characters lack a good backdash, he was just the first character that stood out to me. The fact that he's a VF character has nothing to do with it.

I still think not everything Manny said should be discarded. Even if he's completely wrong on his opinions about how DOA5 should work, he's still the best player of the franchise out there and even won the E3 IPL thing easily without using a single CB-into-guaranteed-combo.

It's worth pointing out that no one was playing DOA5 at E3. Pretty much everyone was pulling from DOA4 to do well in that tournament. Even Kayane, who was probably using CB more than anyone else, didn't have a full grasp of the new systems.

Wait until late 2012 or early 2013 when people really understand DOA5, then we can talk about how effective someone can be when playing without using CB.

Manny should pick SCV and VF5FS and play them competitively to understand what makes those games good and why DOA5 needs the stuff we always talk about. But there's no reason to panic, the game is less than three months away so I don't think anything Manny says will change the game drastically to transform it into DOA4.2

Unfortunately, I think VF5 and SC5 will see a big decline in competition after Evo, especially with TTT2 releasing.

Also, remember how drastically DOA4 changed in the last 2 months of development? I'm not saying that will happen here, and I think it's unlikely to happen, but it's certainly not out of the question.

 

[RikWeaN]

Love all the sarcasm, but let me see if I'm following you correctly.
I mention that "it's not a huge concern" but I'd like to see SE removed from one stun, a stun that already doesn't allow you to counter, and you blow up like this?
Perhaps next time you should ask questions to understand the reasoning behind the statement instead of just blowing up? Might make for better conversation.

Please don't get the wrong idea. I'm actually following every single conversation you guys have been having and I do believe you're right in wanting the game to be more competitive - or at least less random.

Sarcasm was my way of saying there are probably other ways to make the game viable without having to strip it down of all its mechanics, start from scratch and just keep the name. Because that's sometimes what I feel you wish for. Might as well make a new series if that's going to be the case. My point is DOA was designed from the get go to be a more user friendly take on VF, the core mechanics are flawed from a competitive stand point. It's probably a lost cause to try to balance them, and this might be the reason why the TN seems to be having such a hard time doing it. Seems to me making a competitive fighter was never their priority, they just want to do it now because there's money to be made there but the very structure of the game makes it almost impossible.

I sometimes think it might just be a lost cause, maybe we could just take DOA for what it is and keep solid fighters such as VF for competition ?

 

[AKNova7]

1.Quite a few characters can kill you in 3-4 counterholds in DOA5.
2. You can still use counterholds to avoid high attacks, while countering low attacks.
3. You can still use counterholds to escape situations that would normally offer guaranteed damage in other fighters.
4. You can still play the DOA4 stun/forced guessing game because, while the counterhold recovery is longer, as soon as you get hit mid-stun, the recovery is canceled and you can counter again.

While I agree that the stun system is an issue, it's clear that the counterholds are still a problem.

1. Then, as far as I'm concerned, there needs to be much more Counter Hold damage balancing done. Much, much more. Unless the character is made with no little - no offensive potential whatsoever.
2. I've always thought that was not only something that needed to be fixed, but the stupidest thing I've ever seen in fighting games. Ever. Without a single doubt. In fact, why are we not pushing to get THAT fixed as one of the main priorities?
3&4. This is a problem with the stun system, not the Counter Holds themselves. This is, at the very least, ludicrous.

You forgot the most important thing. VF doesn't have a universal counter system. The counter system in VF is more of a character match-up strategy than anything else.

Yes, but if VF's system was universal, it wouldn't be something that would dominate the game. It doesn't even dominate for those characters. That's what I'm saying. It shows how counters can be correctly implemented without breaking a game.

I mentioned Akira because he has a really good backdash. That doesn't mean other characters lack a good backdash, he was just the first character that stood out to me. The fact that he's a VF character has nothing to do with it.

 

[TRI Mike]

Is there a way to delete Manny's article from the other forums¿ We can't let TN read that.

 

[OSTCarmine]

Please don't get the wrong idea. I'm actually following every single conversation you guys have been having and I do believe you're right in wanting the game to be more competitive - or at least less random.

Sarcasm was my way of saying there are probably other ways to make the game viable without having to strip it down of all its mechanics, start from scratch and just keep the name. Because that's sometimes what I feel you wish for. Might as well make a new series if that's going to be the case. My point is DOA was designed from the get go to be a more user friendly take on VF, the core mechanics are flawed from a competitive stand point. It's probably a lost cause to try to balance them, and this might be the reason why the TN seems to be having such a hard time doing it. Seems to me making a competitive fighter was never their priority, they just want to do it now because there's money to be made there but the very structure of the game makes it almost impossible.

I sometimes think it might just be a lost cause, maybe we could just take DOA for what it is and keep solid fighters such as VF for competition ?

DOA can most definitely be fixed. look at all the huge steps made in the right direction already. also, i would have you note that some of those "competitive" fighters out there are completely unbalanced anyways. being a solid fighter (in the technical sense) will not guarantee DOA a spot on the competitive scene, TN has to market a GOOD game WELL for that to happen.

I like Rikuto's bitching about Manny lol. i have no personal beef with the dude, but i do happen to think he is definitely not the guy TN should be asking any advice from... too bad that TN itself does not see their folly.

AKNova's take on the neutral game is quite enlightening. Really outside-teh-box thinking there buddy. Just from approaching d-holds from that angle i can already think of a bunch of ways to improve the overall gameplay, so somebody definitely needs to bring this to TN's attention asap

 

[DrDogg]

Is there a way to delete Manny's article from the other forums¿ We can't let TN read that.

What's interesting is that Manny didn't post the article here at first. Instead he posted it on TKP and DOAW. No one is discussing it on TKP so he hasn't said anything there. However, it's gotten a handful of responses on DOAW, to which he's responded multiple times.

Here, he has not responded in what... two days? He knows we have way more competitive knowledge than a majority of the people on DOAW, so he's avoiding us. He doesn't want Team Ninja to see that his opinion is not favored by most of the competitive scene. He's sneaky, I'll give him that much.

I should know very soon here whether or not Team Ninja is listening to Manny more so than the rest of us. I won't be able to provide any real details, but hopefully what little I'll actually be able to say will be good news. ^_^

P.S. I have big plans for the strategy guide. It will be awesome. Everyone should buy it.

 

[DyByHands]

Consider it bought!

 

[AKNova7]

AKNova's take on the neutral game is quite enlightening. Really outside-teh-box thinking there buddy. Just from approaching d-holds from that angle i can already think of a bunch of ways to improve the overall gameplay, so somebody definitely needs to bring this to TN's attention asap.

Personally, I agree. While the game would be stuffy with a good neutral game and that awful stun system, it would be a big step forward process to fix this shenanigans called current DOA. Neutral game improvement should definitely be pushed. At the same time, if it's pushed, we will have to make sure we also push some moves being safe to the point they encourage movement. After all, a neutral game without at least a couple pokes is a neutral game that will feel terribly incomplete.

 

[Allan Paris]

Let me ask you something. When it's time to vote, do you ever vote for something just to be in the majority? If you do, you're defeating the entire concept of democracy and compromise.

The fuck?! Manny is the one who's defeating the concept of a democracy in a democratic community. I heard he's compromised recently but that's only because certain people were there for that to happen. If they weren't, the game for a COMMUNITY would be built on his beliefs, and his beliefs alone. That defeats the entire concept of a democracy.

I do agree with most of the things to help DOA to become a solid fighter. If I had to vote, I would be in the majority but not because I want to fit in, be cool, or whatever other sheepish behavior there is. I fully understand the changes that need to be made

So, if you only care about what DOA has or doesn't have, then why am I the only person you say something along those lines to? Plenty of people compare other games with DOA on these very forums, and I don't see you pursuing them, just saying. Holds got nerfed for being crazy anyway, the only thing you should really be complaining about them for in the first place is their active duration, now that their damage got smacked around. Being able to hold in stun is a complaint about the stun system, not the hold system.

You spoke to me first, I am only responding. So I am "pursuing" you? Yeah plenty of people do it, that's fine, when something intelligent is said. I can buy intelligent comments/statements, possibly new mechanics or ideas can be built/made from them. You completely tore down DOA's Hold mechanic and morphed it into another game's mechanic. What. The. Hell.

I am not complaining about the particular perspective of holds you are talking about. I have acknowledge the good work TN has done with with them since the alpha build. I love it even more that they tightened them up (active window) and made the recovery longer. My particular complaint is about the situations that they can still be applied in.

Comeback from losing? I think a better term in this regard would be regain momentum.

You say tomato I say tomato.

Whenever you want would call it free, as in how it was in DOA4. These holds are nowhere NEAR the place they were. Obviously I wasn't talking about 3, I'd never talk shit about that game. 4 was the one with the tear-worthy poke game. I don't understand why you are blowing things so far out of context. If you want to address the PROBLEM, then address the PROBLEM. I understand there's some things that you CAN'T do at this point in production, but you can still talk to the community what you, you know, actually think is the problem.

I have yet to blow anything out of context since you engaged conversation with me. If I have, someone would have spoken up by now. I am addressing the problem, you. You clearly do not understand what is going on exactly since you responded to my post. It's like you read what I said, took nothing substantial in, and jumped completely out the window with your thoughts.

I've been here for 2 years and a day now. The community, I mean, the competitive community and I know what the problems are and we all have been discussing them, actually way before this site came into existence. We are still discussing the problems to this day. So I have been doing what you are trying to tell me to do, lol.

What REALLY seperates Virtua's counter mechanic from DOA's, is three things. The active window, the damage, and then everything ELSE but the counter system. Let me explain. In Virtua Fighter, if someone throws an attack that's negative 13 on block, and you throw a 14 frame attack, you CAN get countered. Unless there's some little trick in Virtua Fighter I don't know about that would dematerialize my results. That would make Virtua's counter system a 1 frame counter as opposed to DOA's 0 frame counter system.

You don't have to explain VF to me. This much I do know, yeah, the reversals are i1 and they are active for i10 (Akira), i14 (Wolf, low punch), and i15 (Aoi and Pai), those are for the 4 characters that I come across the most. You cannot solely rely on them for defense though, unlike in DOA, and they all vary in numbers for VF. Oh yeah, not all of the characters have reversals in VF, can't say that for DOA. Again, my problem is not with holds, you comparing them how you did was my problem.

The last thing that separates the two games is how the game is PLAYED in general. The neutral game is MUCH stronger in Virtua FIghter, allowing multiple offensive and defensive options on both sides. While they don't have FSD, the neutral game is still much stronger in that game.

*gasps* I never knew.

And there's your example.

Uumm yeah. Look here. I am only responding to exactly what you are saying in each post that you keep quoting me in. Stop talking to me like I don't know anything and need you to educate me. As of now, I don't even know what the hell we are even talking about at the core. You have yet to tell me anything I don't know already.

Oh yeah, with your last two posts for the most part, good job. It shows that you have some good ideas for what needs to be done to help out DOA competitively.

 

[d3v]

Unfortunately, I think VF5 and SC5 will see a big decline in competition after Evo, especially with TTT2 releasing.

Let him play TTT2 then. The game is pretty much the opposite of DOA in terms of philosophy especially since it promotes the rewarding of offense so much more than DOA. In other words, once you get a hit in, then you're allowed to get as many hits in as you can, provided you have the skill to do so (and also provides you the mechanics to do so, e.g. bound).

 

[TRI Mike]

P.S. I have big plans for the strategy guide. It will be awesome. Everyone should buy it.

I already pre-ordered it. I'd like it signed please.