Dead or Alive 5: Remaining Issues

[Raansu]

And for all the love God has for us, SHOW US JANN LEE AND HELENA.

If Jan Lee doesn't have at minimum his 6pk frame advantage and his dragon gunner setups from 3.1 then I'm out. Actually if characters in general lack frame advantage like in DoA4 then I'm out. Jan Lee was my second favorite character in 3.1 and I couldn't use him at all in DoA4 because of how jacked up the game was -_-.

 

[TRI Mike]

I always felt both Jann Lee and Tina were supposed to be the best characters in DOA4. In Lee's case, his dragon gunner was toned down, he didn't get any frame advantage, his sidestepping attacks were useless because everything in the game tracks and even his throws seemed a bit underpowered. But when you see his move list and the things that could have been possible if the game had other mechanics, you can't help but think he was supposed to be much more powerful.

I feel the same about Tina. She has air throws, chargeable OHs, ground throws, safe strings and more but the system of the game itself just destroyed her. It's really sad.

 

[Raansu]

I always felt both Jann Lee and Tina were supposed to be the best characters in DOA4. In Lee's case, his dragon gunner was toned down, he didn't get any frame advantage, his sidestepping attacks were useless because everything in the game tracks and even his throws seemed a bit underpowered. But when you see his move list and the things that could have been possible if the game had other mechanics, you can't help but think he was supposed to be much more powerful.

I feel the same about Tina. She has air throws, chargeable OHs, ground throws, safe strings and more but the system of the game itself just destroyed her. It's really sad.

That's because up till x05 the game had good mechanics. It was all stripped away right before the game launched and then whatever they missed was patched and removed a few weeks later.

 

[TRI Mike]

Did TN ever give a reason why the x05 build was destroyed¿

 

[Raansu]

Did TN ever give a reason why the x05 build was destroyed¿

There are jokes that go around like someone showed Itagaki TB's doa3.1 videos with bass doing insane juggles and how to properly play 3.1 and he didn't like that. We also assumed it was because Itagaki had VF players testing the game so we blamed them as well, but basically from what Shimbori said when we spoke with him last year was that the Japanese didn't like DoA3.1.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The Japanese don't like frame advantage on guard. It's why Hitomi's 6p+k was +0 in the e3 build after being +1 in the alpha demo. TheyDon't see the reason to reward a fast character for attacking by making their attacks faster. It's why they hate doa3 Jann Lee's 6pk because he can do anything from it including string back into it from a jab or even a fast mid.

 

[Raansu]

The Japanese don't like frame advantage on guard. It's why Hitomi's 6p+k was +0 in the e3 build after being +1 in the alpha demo. TheyDon't see the reason to reward a fast character for attacking by making their attacks faster. It's why they hate doa3 Jann Lee's 6pk because he can do anything from it including string back into it from a jab or even a fast mid.

But that's the entire point of a striker. And the hold was there to prevent them from looping it -_-. But ya the few people I did get to play 3.1 with when I was living in Japan couldn't stand Jan Lee so I would rarely pick him just so we could keep playing 3.1 instead of switching to a 360 machine and play doa4 lol. Sometimes they'd play the DC version of DoA2 which was quite interesting though. Better than playing DoA4.

And seriously they removed frame advantage from 6p+k!? -_- I'll be royally pissed if they removed it from 3f+k as well (46k in 3.1) I hated that it was unsafe in DoA4 and was happy to see it be safe again and have frame advantage on it. Did they remove it from 8f+k as well? *sigh* another reason to be less interested in DoA5 again.

 

[AKNova7]

It would be nice if the move sets were more safe. +1 to +2 (5-8 strikes)would be good here and there along with -1 to -4's(15-20 strikes). Poke attacks like Jabs (/) will be +1 to +2, while other attacks that have other viable attributes are -1 to -4(launchers, knock back/down strikes).

That would be too far to the other extreme. Virtua Fighter is probablt the safest 3D fighter on the market, bujut even that game doesn't have -4 launchers. Furthermore, with the current, dumb as hell stun system, the last thing that should happen is jabs being positive. Can one of the players who played E3 please provide me with an estimated move count?

 

[Shinigamimatt]

I'm confused. So DOA4 was actually going to be something good pre-launch. Who in TN was making DOA4 awesome. And who exactly shut them down. Was there like, an awesome idea guy, and Itagaki murdered him after seeing his game be "destroyed"?

 

[Matt Ponton]

We were told by Shimbori without a translator that the reason for the X05 > Final build change of the game was, "Itagaki likes fast paced games."

Not really an answer, but I think it's basically telling that the rumor was true: Someone showed him how to properly play DOA3 and he was like "WTF!?". In addition, the VF beta testers didn't probably do much to help the situation but I don't think blame can be left all on them. After all, any of their suggestions would have had to be approved by Itagaki.

The rumor is that someone was talking to Itagaki and asked him Why he was making Bass so much better than his already top tier self in DOA3. Confused, Itagaki asked, "What do you mean top tier? In DOA3, he was bottom. He's so slow.". This can be seen in the DOA4 E3 Trailer where he made his perform a Guard Crush, and the follow-up (guaranteed) caused a hit throw to occur which would leave Bass at disadvantage if the opponent teched the throw once hitting the ground.

Additionally, Itagaki delayed the game by a full month, missing the Xbox 360 Launch for 'last minute changes'. X05 was around 2 or 3 months prior to the delayed announcement.

Lastly, due to the delay from Itagaki, Dr Dogg had to start working on the DOA4 strategy guide with the X05 build. Things I remember him saying in the build were so positive. Like Hayate's was +1 on guard. Kokoro had solid two hit natural combos and had frame advantage on her attacks. You couldn't hold while in guard break or guard crush. If Jann Lee did then charged up the final , you could step during his charge and the release of the charge would not track. Side stepping looked improved from 3.1, had the things many of us were looking for as an expansion from DOA3, and the game looked amazing.

Then he pulled the switch-a-roo.

 

[LostSkeleton73]

Thanks for the clarification on that. I honestly thought it was due to the whole VF testers thing. Such a shame, really, because I never had the chance to play 3.1, and it sounds like it was the best version of all.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

Funny how Itagaki didn't know his own game. He was so anal about it too. Glad he's gone.

 

[LostSkeleton73]

My prediction was that if Itagaki was involved in DOA5, we would have had Spartan replaced by Steven Tyler.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

I kinda want Steven Tyler in my DOA's. Dat face top tier.

 

[Skilletor]

I don't get the "Japanese players don't like Frame Advantage on Guard" thing when Tekken has been the most popular fighter in arcades for several years now.

 

[grap3fruitman]

If characters are gonna have 65-100+ strings each like in DOA4 I think all of them should get AT LEAST seven which give frame advantage on block. starting with +2 to +6 should be fine.

The problem with that suggestion is that while you're giving everyone good tools, you're giving everyone the same tools. Then DOA5 would have the same problem of DOA4 where everyone played the same, granted, it would be a better "same" but still... The characters need more good unique tools.

What I want for DOA6 is for Team Ninja to take the lessons they've learned (or will learn) with DOA5 and get together a committee of several knowledgeable players together for a few weeks and really break down how to revitalize DOA by fixing its flaws, making the characters more unique and how to expand on the good items the series is known for like its multi-tiered levels. Do this before any sort of work is actually started on DOA6.

Every time I see more casual fans give TN feedback it's along the veins of "Give (insert character name) every single thing every other character has!" Most of the time though, it's people specifically asking for more mix-ups at the end of strings. A lot of the new moves in DOA5 appear to be a different level hitting string-ender. I don't feel that's a good way to look at a fighter. If everyone has the same exact options, good or bad, then the characters feel like they all play alike.

With DOA6, Team Ninja needs to really examine what aspects of a character are supposed to make them identifying and then do some cutting with the rest of their movesets while expanding on the items that are supposed to make them unique. This would be a very difficult process and this is why I feel that getting a group of very knowledgeable players together to assist with this task would benefit the series significantly. I'm sorry if I'm getting too off topic but it sort of relates to TRI's comment and I wasn't quite sure where else to put it.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I don't get the "Japanese players don't like Frame Advantage on Guard" thing when Tekken has been the most popular fighter in arcades for several years now.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just sharing the information that came from the Japanese players of DOA. The same ones who complained that the game was nothing but throw punishing.

Shimbori even made a comment in an interview about it how the two regions differ where Americans want to continue offense after being guarded and Japanese want to punish for successfully guarding. Something to that effect.

 

[DrDogg]

That would be too far to the other extreme. Virtua Fighter is probablt the safest 3D fighter on the market, bujut even that game doesn't have -4 launchers. Furthermore, with the current, dumb as hell stun system, the last thing that should happen is jabs being positive. Can one of the players who played E3 please provide me with an estimated move count?

Excluding throws and holds, the average character has around 80-100 attacks.

 

[Blackula]

If characters are gonna have 65-100+ strings each like in DOA4 I think all of them should get AT LEAST seven which give frame advantage on block. starting with +2 to +6 should be fine. Also there should be more safe moves so it becomes possible to keep pressure on a blocking opponent without getting throw-punished every time a string ends. More sit-down and unholdable stuns should be added as well.

Other than that, I'd like bigger boobs for all the girls except Tina who is already the most beautiful female in the history of electronic entertainment. More costumes, and cool single-player game modes like Team Battle, Survival and the such. Also, online sparring should be included.

And for all the love God has for us, SHOW US JANN LEE AND HELENA.

Strings that are advantage on block??? Oh hell no!!! Now you get to mix me up and be safe for doing it??? AND KEEP PRESSURING ME WITH MORE STRINGS??????

However, I do agree that more moves need to be safe.

My ideal wish: less strings, more stand alone attacks. Then you can make many of these takes safe, some advantage on block to keep pressure up but not strings with advantage. That would just make things worse.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just sharing the information that came from the Japanese players of DOA. The same ones who complained that the game was nothing but throw punishing.

Shimbori even made a comment in an interview about it how the two regions differ where Americans want to continue offense after being guarded and Japanese want to punish for successfully guarding. Something to that effect.

I find this very interesting. I'm sure a lot of these Japanese players also play a lot of VF and Tekken and in both games, almost every character has moves that leave them + on block.

 

[AKNova7]

Excluding throws and holds, the average character has around 80-100 attacks.

Here's what I suggest. The negativity of moves, on block, should vary based on how much damage potential and utility each move by itself has to begin with.

At least 15% Poke Type Moves (-1 to -3.) spread among useful places for the characters. Speed may vary. Reward will be low.
Around 10% High Risk Manuevers. These moves would be powerful, like high launchers, bound setups, and moves that are very very powerful. Would also be Command Throw Punishable.
There would also be some slightly more useful than poke moves, and these moves would be (-5 to -6). Right under throw punishable, but not quite.

The rest would be strings that follow the same rules. Not my final idea, but this is kind of where I'd want the game to be. And kill delay.