Do you want a tournament scene?

[Allan Paris]

if he can cancel the attack .. then the attack is NOT unsafe.
holds cannot be canceled and if they are thrown out and they can be severely punished ..
so in fact it is NOT exactly what is happening in reverse.

All in all, he's getting at how attacking is inefficient on the offensive, as of now with DOA, that is a 100% true. Do not over complicate this with all those other examples. You know exactly what he means and what he is getting at.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

All in all, he's getting at how attacking is inefficient on the offensive, as of now with DOA, that is a 100% true. Do not over complicate this with all those other examples. You know exactly what he means and what he is getting at.

yes I do know EXACTLY what hes getting at which is EXACTLY why I elaborated specificly on what he said.
the example is NOT the same.

infact i LIKED his post when I read it because he was the only one here trying to make sense out of things even though it was a conflicting opinion to mine.

people use the argument "well if you play other fighters you'd understand why holds in stun are wrong" now it seems like "if i DO refer to other games im missing the pont ?" theres no pleasing any crowd here ..

again I would like to keep the argument specifictly what is being presented in the argument itself ...
and i do have the highest respect for VirtuaPAI for all his contributions he has enlightened us with throughout the years. even before I knew this forum even exsisted I knew of his tutorials in gamefaqs etc... . I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything like that but I am simply trying to hold a healthy debate. but it seems that everytime I say something someone's out for blood.

 

[Rikuto]

Infact .. if you can't guess that well in general then holding mid stun comes as a savior mechanic to players like that specificly! because then when you mess up, if the opponent starts to style on you with stun after stun. you can stuff all that back into his face with a hold and tone him down..
think about it .. if you hold and he continues striking .. then you dont get more damage ...
but obviously theres a risk ... and that is the throw ... so in the end there is a risk to it. despite me arguing with rikuto about restricting your play to mid/low holds and completely ignoring the high hold. It DOES infact cover many options but I just wanted to point out to him that its NOT every option.. and high holds do have a great value if a defender knows whats coming, or if the attacker knows the gimmick and goes for setups like the ones I mentioned.. I can elaborate on this further by giving more acctual examples if anyone wishes..

I never said there was no risk, I said that every risk could be avoided within those few options.

Low holds avoid standing throws and standing holds avoid low throws. This is not untrue, therefore you can avoid every option in the game by sticking to the holds i presented so long as you guess correctly.

a simple example apart from the ones Ive already mentioned would be ...
HITOMI's .. that move has a high mid and low variety ..
if you weigh it out ...
- the low followup would do nothing but knock me down .. so Im not too worried about that..
- the high follow up would'nt be too bad if I was mid screen .. BUT, if I was behind a wall that can either trigger a wall combo or even a dangerzone combo .. and for me that is a much higher risk than a mere knockdown. and I WOULD go for a HIGH hold.
- the follow up is MID. if I went for the HIGH hold the first hit attack would hit me but the 2nd has no variation. limiting the "guessing" to simply that single MID option! here I dont go straight away and hold .. because I KNOW the follow up is MID ... now the trained eye can spot the start animation of the move so once I see it i would go for that MID hold. But I wouldnt straight away for 2 reasons ...
1) the possibility of a free cancel (and thats where the opponent can do pretty much anything .. and yes as a defender I AM at a disadvantage )
2) the risk of a throw. which would result in a high counter throw.

What are you attempting to argue here? Every option you presented can still be avoided by low holds and mid holds.

.. you can argue that Rikuto's MID/LOW only argument would work the same by:
- reset the situation if he went for the LOW hold as the HIGH follow up would whiff,
and would beat the followup (if not delayed), would lose to the MID leading to the same situation of mine with having to weigh out the only MID , a hold cancel, and throw risk
- however, if he does a MID hold, that would put him in a state where hes open to the HIGH follow-up that would put him straight into the wall or danger zone and give the opponent that garanteed UNHOLDABLE damage. despite him beating the MID option or getting knocked down with the LOW

.... and you can still escape it by simply guessing within the three options given.

now looking at the 2 senarios ... i would MUCH rather go for the HIGH hold first and a possible MID 2nd over the LOW then MID (even though it would reach the same outcome from if the attacker went for the MID) because the risk of the knockdown is minimal over the risk of HIGH into enviromental garanteed stuff. and if I have the chance to stuff it and get me a nice chunk of damage then even BETTER! .

And in return for your greedy preference of reflecting the high, you will open yourself up to further risk of getting high-counter wall thrown by Hitomi. By the way, that's going to hurt. A lot. Low throws? Not quite so much.

Holding low avoids the high, the low, and the more damaging potential of high-counter throw punishment into a wall (which comes in addition to the damage you already took from the first stun). It may well be that he was fishing for a hold from the very start so he could do this. Even if he can throw you on reaction when you hold he still has to wait for you to do it, so eventually his hand is going to be forced lest the stun expire.

It's not as overcomplicated as you're making it out to be, your greed to reflect damage in that situation is. Now if you want to dissect the risk/reward for a specific situation mid-string and find if any truly payout better by sticking to two separate options than that is entirely possible, if not very situational. The example you listed above is not a very ideal one. These are all done mid-string however, and you can avoid such nonsense by simply guessing right on the first attack.... which you were more likely to do if you had just stuck with mids/lows.

going for a DICE ROLL as rikuto would put it in this situation is madness because if you give yourself a 50/50 chance of getting a MID hold and the attacker went for the HIGH .. that immediately leads to massive damage and can destroy you

Is it madness?

Hold high -- get thrown into wall for big damage, get mid punched into wall for big damage, get low swept for minor damage.

Hold mid, get thrown into wall for big damage, get high kicked into wall for big damage, get low swept for minor damage.

Hold low, get low thrown for moderate damage, get mid punched into wall for big damage.


As you can see, more bad, nasty, painful things can happen to you if you stick to highs and mids. By choosing the low/mid route, you are not only lessening the number of horrible things that can happen to you, but the horrible things that WILL happen to you hurt much less half of the time.

again I would like to keep the argument specifictly what is being presented in the argument itself ...
and i do have the highest respect for VirtuaPAI for all his contributions he has enlightened us with throughout the years. even before I knew this forum even exsisted I knew of his tutorials in gamefaqs etc... . I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything like that but I am simply trying to hold a healthy debate. but it seems that everytime I say something someone's out for blood.

Not out for blood, I'm just not one to humor a debate of things that I know are for a fact are untrue. If something is wrong, and years of tournament experience and labwork tell me its wrong, and a new guy comes along with zero tournament experience and posts a multiple walls-of-text with tons of broken examples telling me its right, because he is still enthusiastic and really truly wants to believe it, I have to stop and go....

"Yo, dawg. You're wrong."

Honestly I'm a little impressed at your general insanity and tail chasing to figure this out, because it reminds me of when i was trying to make something of the game so very long ago. The logic is practically circular, because at the end of the day there is absolutely no smart way to win in these situations but you're going to keep convincing yourself that there is through theory fighter. And when it doesn't work out for you, you'll switch up to the opposite end of the logic until that doesn't work. And around and around and around.

And then, after many years of attempting to optimize your guessing you will realize something.

The game seriously fucking sucks, and everything is random as shit.

 

[UncleKitchener]

So, this was a conversation I had with an old school player the other day.

"Yo, man, I've won tournaments, ya know."
"I'm talking about real games, not DOA you fucking idiot."

That's kinda troll-ish.
lol

Yeah, man, DOA is like totally a major contender in its current form. DOA for EVO and majors woot woot.

I mean, unless I don't see any evidence that the game is changing in any major way, I can't say that there is a chance for the Hitomi's face to be on any majors poster. Removing holds from stun seems like the first major step and many seem to be supporting this.

I myself would like to see slow escape intact during stun similar to how stagger recovery works in most games.

 

[virtuaPAI]

although I do like the idea of the reverse analogy I have to say I slightly disagree .. because you inserted BLOCKING into the equasion. and thats a totally different thing all together..
if he can cancel the attack .. then the attack is NOT unsafe.
holds cannot be canceled and if they are thrown out and they can be severely punished ..
so in fact it is NOT exactly what is happening

-You are clearly not understanding what I have written, and it is the exact opposite of what is happening when an opponent on the offense deals with holds in stun.

-I am not talking about attack canceling, I am talking about the cancelation of the frames of disadvantage I put myself in after using an unsafe attack. If I am using a move that puts me at -15 every single time it is blocked, and the defensive player who blocked the attack went to rightfully punish me for using such an unsafe attack, than all of a sudden, I pressed an attack button, start attacking, And im no longer at disadvantage.

-If the above occured, how would my opponent be able to properly defend himself if every time he blocked my unsafe attack, I can cancel the frames of disadvantage and continue attacking? He wont be able to. This would be game breaking. A player not being able to use the fundamental element of defense is abysmal and no one would play that game. This is the very thing that is happening with offense. critical holds deny players the fundamental element of offense, and thus the major reason why very few want to take the game seriously.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

snip.

hey man..

I should have been sightly clearer in my example .. (sorry this was my fault) ..
Im assuming a situation where you're not exactly near the wall but can be smacked into it from the follow up ..
I think this makes it more clear ... in this situation you dont worry about the wall throw ..

the other thing you need to consider is if your back was acctually stuck to the wall ..when this senario happened the 1st would slam into the wall as well unfortunately .. basicly making the argument slightly more complex as now the risk is between a high or a mid wall slam .... assuming the opponent DOES GO for a follow up i would still personally probably consider the HIGH/MID over LOW/MID .. simply because still it gives me the better odds .. (better than the low in this situation) .. tthen theres the situation when you slam into a danger zone .. then it doesnt matter ...

which brings me to another point .. that your position in the environment can severly ruin your odds. so when you're on the recieving side you are at less advantage if you are not aware of your barings ..

i didnt put throw in the equasion if you recall but I did mention that that as well can be a factor if we wanted to further expand on this ... but i was assuming the followup (which ever one) would come out. a high counter low throw can hurt alot as well .. not as much as a standing one obviously (and certainly not near the wall as you have clearly elaborated )

by the way i never acctually said your senario is bad .. or wrong ... i just said it was never 100% ..and im sure you agree on that as well ... and I would deffinately go for your option myself because in many situations because it is in fact the logical thing to do ..

at the end of the day theres too many elements involved in this like i said before..
from the attack timing, to the hold timing, to the attack height, to the hod height, throw , no throw, wall, no wall , human error, danger zones, slow escapes (not in this example but yes)..
and i honestly just dont see it as a 50/50 .. and I know you disagree on this .. but I just dont see it your way .. sorry ..

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

ITT people want to turn DOA into Tekken ie. a shitty juggle fest where you get to spend 5 minutes watching long combos, regardless who gets hit. Simon Sez sure is deep!

ps. people keep bringing up the tournament scene, the same scene that shits on any game that isn't made by Capcom. You're delusional if you think axing holds altogether in stun will somehow make these guys respect DOA. They do that, and they'll find some other excuse, usually "it doesn't play like SF/Tekken, it sucks!"

 

[Raansu]

Most of us here have been fans of doa for over 10 years. Most of us here are asking for features that already existed in a previous doa title, all we want is that to be improved upon to make doa a more competitive game, not the crap fest we got with doa4.

This site is pretty much the competitive community, don't like it? Go to doaworld where they talk about Kasumi's underwear.

btw, I hate Tekken, but I'd kill to have DoA5 be a solid fighter like Tekken is.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

-You are clearly not understanding what I have written, and it is the exact opposite of what is happening when an opponent on the offense deals with holds in stun.

-I am not talking about attack canceling, I am talking about the cancelation of the frames of disadvantage I put myself in after using an unsafe attack. If I am using a move that puts me at -15 every single time it is blocked, and the defensive player who blocked the attack went to rightfully punish me for using such an unsafe attack, than all of a sudden, I pressed an attack button, start attacking, And im no longer at disadvantage.

-If the above occured, how would my opponent be able to properly defend himself if every time he blocked my unsafe attack, I can cancel the frames of disadvantage and continue attacking? He wont be able to. This would be game breaking. A player not being able to use the fundamental element of defense is abysmal and no one would play that game. This is the very thing that is happening with offense. critical holds deny players the fundamental element of offense, and thus the major reason why very few want to take the game seriously.

i still feel the senario is quite different ...
are you assuming that during your -15 frames you can basicly attack again ?
meaning if you were to go for say a throw punish it would not be possible?
and if you were to go for a strike punish it would likely to counter strike me ?
how about holding then ? would i be able to hold your followup attack ? you are in minus frames after all and there are active frames for the followup ..

it would be an interesting twist on things acctually ... it would give strikes a crazy boost ...and it does sound broken as hell ... and throws would probably be at the crappier end of this insane triangle .. lol ...

but as you know.. the triangle isnt strike/throw/stun ... it is strike/throw/hold ... why should strike keep on going for free without a launch ? the stuns can be canceled into holds but the holds have recovery and are punishable (especially in 5) and not to mention that in many situations they dont start up straight away making them easier to read ...

However, I do feel that the strike arm of the triangle does need a buff and I do believe that the DOA system of stun/counter launch height would be just the thing strikes need ...

 

[MASTER]

Emperor Cow does bring up more interesting points though. In DOA5Demo You can't immediately hold low or any hold for that matter to get out of a situation, can we all agree on this? Because its true if you haven't tested it yet. This even applies to most strings that are not your regular ,..Strings. This takes away the option that was once always available in past DOA games especially DOA4 which was to immediately spam the hold of choice, usually low, and getting out of the situation.

With that said and everyone knowing that the hold window is smaller in DOA5Demo that means holds are more inclined on reaction than just a panic button. If hitomi hits you initially with and you are stunned and use any kind of hold then ALL her follow ups are guaranteed. That includes the punch, the kick and the sweep. You have to actually wait for the animation to come out to a point where you know your hold window will actually catch it since using it as a quick panic button works against you now. This is smart IMO and gives the attacker more confidence knowing that the defender can't just luckily hold your attack without actually seeing your attack coming(this is what just frame holders would do in the past). This is also true for moves like hayate's . If you hold immediately the kick will be successful.

@rikuto true boondocks is awesome, my apologies lol. However touching on what you said about the low hold being less risky compared to the other ones, I would have to disagree(DOA5 at least the recovery is the same as the rest). Although the low like you said avoids highs and will avoid low attacks IF executed at the right time (meaning not used like a panic button like mentioned above), it also has its downfalls. Low throws are NOT weak by any means (Ayane's currently is 50pts on normal and 75 on HC). We've always known they have had that additional risk because of the properties it has but another risk it has is if you are launched while low holding the height is higher then it would be normally adding more hits and more damage to the combo.

VP That isn't whats happening on the offense at all when you put it like that. If that were the case then holding early while on defense would automatically grant you the free damage that's coming from the offensive side which isn't the case because of the various hit levels and the possibilities of throws. Or another way to see it using your logic is to be able to hold again if you realize the hold that you did was the incorrect one and adjust by cancelling your current hold for the right one immediately which is NOT possible. TN knows that and will not be taking out holds in stun for that very reason, since the hold does not guarantee you that it will get you out of the situation you were put in on top of the fact that they added some moves or situations that take that option completely away already like the wall.

MASTER

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

Yeah, man, DOA is like totally a major contender in its current form. DOA for EVO and majors woot woot.

SFxTekken is at EVO, your point is rendered invalid. A game being good or bad has NOTHING to do with it being played at tournaments.

 

[Chris Harris]

The point I'm making is that holds are always there and they are not easy to punish. They are "easier" now yes but that's dependent on what move you use. The problem is with guessing you have to guess so many extra times and GIVE the defender opportunities to get out of your offense.

In DoA5 they tried to keep it to the core of DoA while giving offense more power. You can Slow Escape out of a good portion of the moves in the demo. You can't even stun launch because of this with slow escape. In turn they added certain stuns that force you to counter or be launched, knocked down, limbo'd, or what have you.

This is why I think the hold should have more recovery. When you hold it should be more towards a read and not using a low hold to evade strong options. That's my take on that specific situation though.

 

[virtuaPAI]

it would be an interesting twist on things acctually ... it would give strikes a crazy boost ...and it does sound broken as hell ... and throws would probably be at the crappier end of this insane triangle .. lol ...

-Broken as hell, exactly, this very thing happen when you do a critical hold. No matter what the possible mix up you can do to succeed on the offensive side, it will always remain broken! just like you said how throws will be at the crappier end of the triangle system, attacks are already facing this dilemma. All of your suggestions are just bandaides to a broken gameplay mechanic.

-As you was able to see, being able to break block stun with an attack will cause the game to be broken, there is no difference with being able to break hit stun with a hold. In one scenario throws become useless, in the other its attacks.

 

[Raansu]

The point I'm making is that holds are always there and they are not easy to punish. They are "easier" now yes but that's dependent on what move you use. The problem is with guessing you have to guess so many extra times and GIVE the defender opportunities to get out of your offense.

In DoA5 they tried to keep it to the core of DoA while giving offense more power. You can Slow Escape out of a good portion of the moves in the demo. You can't even stun launch because of this with slow escape. In turn they added certain stuns that force you to counter or be launched, knocked down, limbo'd, or what have you.

This is why I think the hold should have more recovery. When you hold it should be more towards a read and not using a low hold to evade strong options. That's my take on that specific situation though.

Do you even know what the core is? Have you ever even played DoA2/3? DoA4 has no core, the gave everyone the icing and forgot to bake the cake.

DoA5 is taking the right steps, but the cake still hasn't been baked yet.

 

[DriftSlave]

SFxTekken is at EVO, your point is rendered invalid. A game being good or bad has NOTHING to do with it being played at tournaments.

How is shitting on Tekken and SFxTK helping DOA's situation?
say what you will about those games but the fact that they are at majors is the point hes making. Unless DOA5 gets into the next road to EVO, you honestly can't say shit.

D3V has said this in the past many times. It doesn't matter on the game, as long as it's community supports it...it'll make it. Melty Blood is the perfect example. If an anime fighter that never had a US release can be played at EVO then any game has a chance. DOA5 has the same chances as VF5FS or KOFXIII coming back for another year, If you wana complain about EVO having games like SFxTK in their lineup then go ahead...the salt mines are waiting.

 

[Chris Harris]

Do you even know what the core is? Have you ever even played DoA2/3? DoA4 has no core, the gave everyone the icing and forgot to bake the cake.

DoA5 is taking the right steps, but the cake still hasn't been baked yet.

Yes I have played all versions of DoA. I didn't get to play 2/3 competitively because I wasn't even playing games at that time. However I did play them against good players, not baddies I found in some random area and did well in the game.

DoA4 still has a core mechanic and it's the same as the other DoA games. . . .the hold. The only difference in 4 is you had a way around the hold for damage. Not to mention you had max juggle height on launch after stun so there was no reason in the world to even play with the stun game.

The core mechanics of DoA in general is going to be the same no matter what which is what we are asking for some type of change to it. The "Hold" which is generally what everyone is worried about in competitive play and what it does to the game. That's the core mechanic and what this entire conversation is about.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Do Hayate's and check the frame data. Its a ridiculous amount of time that you have to add another attack and being able to reset that situation again within the same stun is stupid which is why you need to be able to hold in stun.

That's why we keep saying they need to change the stun system as well but you keep ignoring that because it's convenient for you to ignore since you don't have a legimately argument for that and instead argue points people don't make.

 

[DrDogg]

*snip*

The DOA scene kind of dispersed after CGS died. Very few people have had any kind of interaction with you after that point. I dealt with you on a regular basis all throughout WCG, CGS and just about everything else regarding DOA. I know what your stage attitude is compared to your normal attitude.

Unfortunately, I don't really feel the need to call you right now. It's not a priority for me to see if you're still the same person you used to be. You've made no effort to show the community that you've changed, so I'm not sure why I need to make an extra effort to discover this fact. However, if you have indeed changed, then I apologize for my comments. We'll have plenty of time to discuss these changes very soon... in person.

you said yourself. "You are right about one thing, the top DOA players beat me at DOA. Why? Because I don't guess very well. Never have... never will."
... now what makes you think that when holds mid stun are gone you are going to guess less ?
the guessing in terms of the footsie game and the initial attack are just as deadly. and DOA shares the non-stun game with most other fighters out there .. particularly calibur.. and If you can't guess mid stun then you can't guess out of stun either. again I'm not accusing you of being good or bad. but thats my answer to the argument.

I don't guess well, which is one of the reasons why I play as safe as possible in VF, Tekken and SC. I reduce the number of times I have to guess, and in some instances I do not guess at all, or if I do guess, it's a safe guess if I'm wrong.

I open players up with no real issue, and once I do I'm rewarded with a juggle/combo. In DOA, if I open someone up, they have a decent chance of not only avoiding damage, but inflicting damage on me. There's no such thing as playing safe in DOA. The offensive player is almost always in danger of taking damage, and the defensive player almost always has the ability to reverse the situation no matter how much you just messed up. When it boils down to it, that's the main issue I have with DOA.

ITT people want to turn DOA into Tekken ie. a shitty juggle fest where you get to spend 5 minutes watching long combos, regardless who gets hit. Simon Sez sure is deep!

ps. people keep bringing up the tournament scene, the same scene that shits on any game that isn't made by Capcom. You're delusional if you think axing holds altogether in stun will somehow make these guys respect DOA. They do that, and they'll find some other excuse, usually "it doesn't play like SF/Tekken, it sucks!"

Was it necessary for you to copy/paste this post in multiple threads?

Here are your options for a tournament scene:
1. Keep DOA pretty much the same and have no tournament scene.
2. Make some changes and give the series a chance at a tournament scene.

It's pretty cut and dry.

In DOA5Demo You can't immediately hold low or any hold for that matter to get out of a situation, can we all agree on this? Because its true if you haven't tested it yet. This even applies to most strings that are not your regular ,..Strings. This takes away the option that was once always available in past DOA games especially DOA4 which was to immediately spam the hold of choice, usually low, and getting out of the situation.

With that said and everyone knowing that the hold window is smaller in DOA5Demo that means holds are more inclined on reaction than just a panic button.

I haven't touched DOA4 in years. Instead, I've been playing Soul Calibur IV, Tekken 6, VF5 ver C and Soul Calibur V. Because of how much time has passed since I last played DOA4, it's a little foggy to me.

When I played the DOA5 demo, I immediately felt all the same problems of DOA4 rushing back to me. Yes, things have changed and you can't counter immediately. But that doesn't change anything. The problems are still there and very, very visible.

I can still spam counterholds and spamming them is still effective... so much so that it's the primary defensive option. Until this is no longer the case, any changes made are irrelevant. There will still be no tournament scene.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

-Broken as hell, exactly, this very thing happen when you do a critical hold. No matter what the possible mix up you can do to succeed on the offensive side, it will always remain broken! just like you said how throws will be at the crappier end of the triangle system, attacks are already facing this dilemma. All of your suggestions are just bandaides to a broken gameplay mechanic.

-As you was able to see, being able to break block stun with an attack will cause the game to be broken, there is no difference with being able to break hit stun with a hold. In one scenario throws become useless, in the other its attacks.

the thing is ..
the situation is not in that reverse ...
I think skatan mentioned this best when he said stun does not mean "garanteed damage" in doa ..

i mentioned before that stuns have varying times of start frames before allowing a next hold .. especially some cetrain stuns on counter hit. that factor alone allows you to see what is being done next ...
then there are unholdable stuns ... ofcourse they arent many ... but they are there ... but you can slow escape
then theres holds that you cannot slow escape .. but you can hold
and garanteed damage situations like launchers that done require stun .. or natural combos like 2in1s/3in1s ..
etc ..
then theres the fact that you cannot hold when launched ... and you cannot hold when down .. and you cannot hold after the wall ... (in doa5 ofcourse)

holds dont cancel into each other ... they cancel out of stun animation .. while REMAINING in stun ..
theres a big difference...
and like i mentioned before a wrong hold IS punishable .. buy a strike of a different height or by throw ..

---
heres a crazy theory to the reverse situation you suggested... (this is all in THEORY ofcourse .. )
if you can for example do the " reverse" you suggested to throws as well by lets say ... allowing throws during recovery frames of the next attack even though the next attack is coming out ... then ... there you go .. problem solved ..
then make moves that dont allow a follow up after certain recovery frames just like you have stuns that done allow hold at the same timings ... then ...
even that crazy broken situation can get a fix ... lol ...

 

[Allan Paris]

VP, I do not see how your analogy is going over some people's head. The main point is being missed and some people are completely jumping out the window on the smaller details of your statement.

So lets state the obvious (facts) that can't be argued against in any light. Holds are still stronger than attacks, they are 0i, and they can be used freely, this skews the triangle system and it looks like this, literally:

You remove them from stun and, things can be put back in their proper perspective. If they remain in stun, they need to be completely useless in stun; piss poor damage, recovery so long you'd wish you'd stayed stunned, you know, pretty much unforgiving. What they have done with them is a good start, but as it's being beat to death, it's not enough and still needs to be fixed.

Chris, it's really like talking to brick walls.