DOA 3.1 vs DOA5

[shunwong]

First I have to say: Sorry for bringing this up, I know this must have been said before, but I didn't play DOA 3.1 and, as people talk about it a lot, I'd like to know what the main differences with DOA5 are. For example:

Did every character in DOA 3.1 get frame advantage of some kind?

Was it possible to hold while stunned in DOA 3.1? If so, Were there more ways around the stun game than there are in DOA5?

If this topic is just something people have discussed over and over a million times, please, direct me to a link that explains what I need to know and close it, I don't want it to turn into the mess this kind of threads usually turn into. I'd really like to know what made DOA 3.1 the best in the series. (too bad I spent 1995-2012 focusing on other addictions instead of videogames LOL I have missed so many good games)

Thanks in advance for the info

PS: I've been watching some videos, and it looks a lot like DOA5. Maybe because I've been watching videos of Gen Fu.

 

[MasterHavik]

It's good. I want a copy of 3.1. And it doesn't play like 5...it has a 3 point hold system for starters.

 

[shunwong]

Characters are much safer on DOA3.1

Could you give me examples, please?

 

[Kronin]

I would be interested to an answer to the questions of shunwong in the OP me too.

 

[Dr. Teeth]

I was just involved in this discussion today with a friend of mine on Facebook. I'll copy and paste the text since I'm too lazy to write everything again.

Basically, DOA 4 started a very polarizing trend in the series for OG players where they seriously ramped up the amount of stunning and guessing involved in the game to the point where it became the focus of the gameplay. DOA 2 and 3 have very little guessing and stunning involved. Every character in 3 has frame traps/advanced setups, guaranteed damage, and gets close to max height for a launcher off of one stun. Wall combos offered better damage, and there was more of a reward for correct spacing and use of the environment. Fundamentals were greatly rewarded and throw punishment was HUGE. If you do something unsafe or whiff with a hold be prepared to lose 25% of your life bar at LEAST. Not to mention that holds were a lot less safe and wakeup kicks were much easier to deal with (although still pretty bullshit admittedly) since they could be more easily crushed and could even be freestepped if timed properly. 3.1 isn't perfect and it definitely has its flaws, but the general consensus is that it's the most all-around solid DOA game competitively due to the fact that there's just barely any guessing that goes into the game relative to the games that came after it, even with 3 point holds haha. It's just a real no nonsense game where fluke wins happen with less frequency.

He then asked a question about the guaranteed damage:
There are guaranteed setups off of everything really. Stuns, things linked together, juggles ending in untechable knockdowns for guaranteed ground damage, frame traps that guarantee throws on hit AND block, etc. There were just so many reliable ways to get damage in that game. Compare that to DOA 4, Dimensions, and (to a lesser extent) 5 where most of the damage comes from mixups in stun, nonstop guessing and 50/50's and it's easy to see why the community is so split. A lot of new gen players feel that 3.1 is broken when they play someone who knows what they're doing, and a lot of OGs consider the new games to be nothing more than a glorified game of rock, paper, scissors. It's honestly like playing two completely different games.

TL;DR 3.1 has more emphasis on fundamentals and smart play, less emphasis on guessing and stuns.

 

[Chaos]

Could you give me examples, please?

VirtuaPai was explaining why he was so upset about DOA5 and why competitive players consider DOA3.1 the best in the series. Heres a link DOA5+for PS Vita

 

[synce]

I think it's a little overrated. If you look at the video below people are still whoring out counters like it's nothing.

 

[Chaos]

I'm glad that TN got rid of the 3 point hold system.

 

[Dr. Teeth]

I think it's a little overrated. If you look at the video below people are still whoring out counters like it's nothing.

Those people are also pretty bad at the game. You can whore counters in any DOA, but it doesn't mean that you should.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I think it's a little overrated. If you look at the video below people are still whoring out counters like it's nothing.

That's actually a great video and I love it. Sure you can still hold in stun but the reason 3.1 is so highly regarded is because you had

• the most ways to shut down the counter hold
• ways to really hurt people for missing those holds and thus making them second guess holding in the first place
• no bullshit stun-guessing game (unless you're Brad Wong)
• actual frame advantage that allowed you to pressure your opponent
• a proper side-step that worked

I'm glad that TN got rid of the 3 point hold system.

Three-point hold isn't bad at all because DOA3 isn't about guessing holds. Honestly, I'd potentially take DOA1 style two-point hold for the next game to get even more emphasis taken off of the hold.

 

[Chaos]

That's actually a great video and I love it. Sure you can still hold in stun but the reason 3.1 is so highly regarded is because you had

• the most ways to shut down the counter hold
• ways to really hurt people for missing those holds and thus making them second guess holding in the first place
• no bullshit stun-guessing game (unless you're Brad Wong)
• actual frame advantage that allowed you to pressure your opponent
• a proper side-step that worked

Three-point hold isn't bad at all because DOA3 isn't about guessing holds. Honestly, I'd potentially take DOA1 style two-point hold for the next game to get even more emphasis taken off of the hold.

3 point hold was definitely well balance on DOA3 unlike DOAD It's wonderful to see many hardcore fans showing love to DOA3

 

[shunwong]

DOA 2 and 3 have very little guessing and stunning involved. Every character in 3 has frame traps/advanced setups, guaranteed damage, and gets close to max height for a launcher off of one stun. Wall combos offered better damage, and there was more of a reward for correct spacing and use of the environment. Fundamentals were greatly rewarded and throw punishment was HUGE. If you do something unsafe or whiff with a hold be prepared to lose 25% of your life bar at LEAST. Not to mention that holds were a lot less safe and wakeup kicks were much easier to deal with (although still pretty bullshit admittedly) since they could be more easily crushed and could even be freestepped if timed properly.

There are guaranteed setups off of everything really. Stuns, things linked together, juggles ending in untechable knockdowns for guaranteed ground damage, frame traps that guarantee throws on hit AND block, etc. There were just so many reliable ways to get damage in that game.

Thanks a lot for your answer. I'm thinking about getting DOAU and DOA3.2 so that's why I'm asking.

When you say holds were less safe: What do you mean exactly? What were the frames?

You say there is less stunning/guessing involved. Is it because of this thing you say?

gets close to max height for a launcher off of one stun

I'd like to know how the stun game is different as holding from stun was also possible.

PS: From reading more, I get the idea that there were a lot less attacks that stunned and that attacks that didn't stun gave frame advantage on hit (as opposed to everything being disadvantage both on block and hit). So the key seems to be:

1. Less attacks that stun (less guessing)

2. More attacks that give frame advantage (more safety and reward for the attacker)

Is this right?

 

[Dr. Teeth]

That's actually a great video and I love it.

I mean sure, those guys aren't TERRIBLE or anything. But the media section here is filled with tons of videos that are much better examples of high level 3.0 and 3.1 play. I just found it odd that he chose that one.

Thanks a lot for your answer. I'm thinking about getting DOAU and DOA3.2 so that's why I'm asking.

When you say holds were less safe: What do you mean exactly? What were the frames?

I meant that holds had a little bit more recovery time on them than they do now, so they were a bit easier to punish. It's not a lot, but it's noticeable. I'm not sure on the frames. Mr. Wah would know for sure.

You say there is less stunning/guessing involved. Is it because of this thing you say? I'd like to know how the stun game is different as holding from stun was also possible.

That's part of it. It's also because high counter damage is off the charts in this game. I've played tons of matches against Mr. Wah, and I've seen him take 75% of my life with a single throw simply because he caught me whiffing with a hold. It really makes your opponent scared to hold in stun unless they're absolutely positive that you're going to do something. Guessing blindly is putting yourself at great risk, so a smart opponent will be doing more slow escaping and evading than actually holding. There are also more unholdable stuns in 3 than there are in 5, and more moves give them to you.

PS: From reading more, I get the idea that there were a lot less attacks that stunned and that attacks that didn't stun gave frame advantage on hit (as opposed to everything being disadvantage both on block and hit). So the key seems to be:

1. Less attacks that stun (less guessing)

2. More attacks that give frame advantage (more safety and reward for the attacker)

Is this right?

Yup! There's also no need to extend the stun game past one stun since launchers give you so much height. The stun mixup game that DOA has become known for is just an unnecessary risk in 3. You can just stun > launch > juggle. Like, you COULD do it if you wanted to, but all you're doing is risking getting held instead of going for the damage.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Holds were the same frames as DOA1, DOA2, and DOA4. 0(22)8 for high and mid, 0(22)5 for lows.

The accepting factor of them was that HCT damage was so punishing that a player who stuck out random holds was scared of guessing wrong. It didn't help that the slowest throws in the game were 7 frames making nearly any whiffed hold punishable by some of the most damaging throw options in the game.

I'm not sure if more attacks gave frame advantage on non-stun though, but otherwise there was more pressure available to members of the cast and more punishment available to those who didn't have the offensive pressure capabilities.

As for stun > launch, yes it was much like DOA2 where getting a launch only affected height of the initial attack status (NB/CB/HCB) or the same launch height regardless of the position in the critical threshold.

Lastly, there were many more natural combos in DOA3, including natural combos such as Gen Fu's P+KPP or Hayabusa's 3PPP which the last two were NC on standing but the whole string was NC on crouching. This is phenomenal because it allowed you to punish low holders with an attack that granted knockback properties (into a wall + relaunch).

 

[Raansu]

You say there is less stunning/guessing involved. Is it because of this thing you say? I'd like to know how the stun game is different as holding from stun was also possible.

It was different in the fact that unlike doa 4 and 5 where everything and the kitchen sink stunned very few moves caused deep stuns, and you really only needed at best 1-2 good hits to get max height while 4 and 5 added a threshold where you needed to stun the damn opponent 4,5,6 times to get the best possible height. It's the massive emphasis on the stun game and the constant guessing that made the game worse.

 

[shunwong]

It didn't help that the slowest throws in the game were 7 frames

WOW. What about the fastest?

At first I didn't understand why there were such fast throws in DOA but now I understand they are kind of a requirement of the system. Making all throws 7 frames max. would be a great hold killer in DOA5.

 

[Matt Ponton]

yes, throws being so fast allowed you to punish whiffed holds on reaction instead of guessing a hold would come.

The slowest throw was 4 startup frames, exclusive to grapplers and Leifang.

The throws basically were sorted by this:
Neutral > Single Direction > Multi Direction
5i, 6i, 7i
Grapplers were 1 frame faster in each category.

Catch Throws (Offensive Holds) were the same as they currently are, typically around the 16i launcher speed. They were called Catch Throws in DOA2 and DOA3 because although the same basic premise they had throw propeties over hold properties. For example scoring a Catch Throw against a holding opponent nets you HCT revision, but scoring an OH against a holding opponent nets you CT revision. Likewise, scoring a CT on an attack nets you NT revision, but scoring an OH on an attack nets you HCT revision.

Although I prefer the CT properties over the OH properties, I can't really complain because DOA1 had them as OHs.

 

[ScattereDreams]

Fuck it! I never played DOA3.1.. but I want to. I would prefer Team Ninja release a remake of this game on XBL and PSN with online (if they can get the netcode right, which they seem to not be able to do...). Obviously no character, or system changes. Perhaps it could help TN realize exactly how pointless the stun system is >.<. Dead or Alive 5 has depth, no doubt, but DOA3.1 sounds like players really had to put time into the game and from what I read above sounds more technical than any DOA.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

with sidestep improving and damage increasing overall would you say its gotten closer to DOA3.1?

 

[Matt Ponton]

I say each provides a different experience, but I enjoy playing both at the moment.