If Golf is considered a pro sport, so should fighting games.
DOA Community, I challenge you...
- Thread starter grap3fruitman
- Start date
dramic91
Active Member
Haha, k, I can't say I disagree entirely with that. I really wasn't thinking golf at all earlier. I don't think I consider it a pro sport, but then again I don't know much about it so who am I to say?
d3v
Well-Known Member
The problem here is that you fail to realize that both "the scrub" and someone who is playing to win are "actually playing." The difference is that the latter get their enjoyment from a higher level of play. At high levels, fighting games in general are more about mastering your opponent then your character. It's more about using the right move at the right time over being able to use a large number of moves.
It's like in those old martial arts movies, where you'll see a guy try to go to town on some master, doing all sorts of flashy moves, then the master proceeds to do just one move to beat the other guy.
dramic91
Active Member
K, but the master also isn't beating everyone up with the same combo over and over again. There's variation. I'm not saying people should be flashy and do the craziest, coolest-looking shit they can, but the same strategy over and over again gets old, fast. I know that the movelists aren't infinite and there are limits on what can happen in a match but still. I just think it makes for more exciting matches. Plus, I've seen videos of the best DoA players fighting and they have variation in their strategies. That's all I'm saying. Variety. Which, unfortunately, doesn't seem to come packaged with "playing to win".
d3v
Well-Known Member
Why should "the master" change up if what they're doing is working. Unless the other guy can step up and counter whatever they're doing "the master" has no reason whatsoever to do anything less efficient. The onus is on the opposing player to develop counters to strong tech. Heck, that's how the metagame of any competitive exercise works.
EDIT: Interesting quote from EVO co-founder Seth Killian on infinites.
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Darth Lotonic X
Active Member
This works. Pai can do her KK semi-infinite with anyone that has a decent relaunch. Combos drop after 30 hits(You can get 31 with a down attack at the end) in this game so it can never be a true infinite, though.
Creativity? You're abusing a glitch that you found from dumb luck lol
I don't get why fighters think they are special,when I play a shooter and I sink though the floor giving me cover but allowing me to sneak attack I expect that to get fixed despite it being able to benefit me because it doesn't belong. A single character able to juggle away your life bar ignores the entire concept of tag. you aren't being clever you're breaking the game then turning right around and complaining about character balance. What a joke.
I don't get why fighters think they are special,when I play a shooter and I sink though the floor giving me cover but allowing me to sneak attack I expect that to get fixed despite it being able to benefit me because it doesn't belong. A single character able to juggle away your life bar ignores the entire concept of tag. you aren't being clever you're breaking the game then turning right around and complaining about character balance. What a joke.
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They don't nerf the Ace of Spades in a patch every week.
Fighting games ain't worth shit all money. How about instead of talking shit you get real with it. Get a job, stack your paper, work on your credit, become the most of yourself, still play fighting games.
Since when has contracts netting billions of dollars been set up over fighting games.
d3v
Well-Known Member
Ever since both players and developers realized that it actually made for better games.
Case in point, in the original 5/12/1999 release of SFIII: 3rd Strike, Urien had a guaranteed unblockable setup via his Aegis super art. Come the 6/08/1999 revision board, this is patched out. The community then unanimously rejects this patch and the 5/12/1999 (or revision A) build is played competitively for years. Come 2011 and the new Online Edition of 3rd Strike is released and the fact that it's based on the 990512 build is one of its selling points (it even teaches you how to do said unblockable).
Similar things have happened with other games. For example, CvS2 had the infamous "roll cancel" glitch that allows you to cancel a roll with a move, while still retaining the invulnerable frames of the roll. This was removed in the GCN and XBox versions of the game (CvS2:EO) but it's still the DC/PS2 version that is played competitively.
And it's not just Capcom games, Guilty Gear XX had something called the "Dust Loop" which was an infinite of sorts that could be done in the corner using Sol's air dust. The technique became iconic enough that the communities website is named after it (dustloop.com). While it was eventually removed in later revisions, it's now back in GGXrd - in fact, it was even shown in the trailer (skip to 2:52).
It also crosses generations and games. MvC2 had an infamous "glitch" where you could juggle an assist character endlessly (provided you could snap the point character out). Now, when Mike Z releases Skullgirls, a similar thing was discovered and Mike eventually admitted to adding it on purpose. Yes, a game with a very strict anti-infinite system actually allows a sort of infinite based on a glitch in a different game simply because the lead developer felt it made the game better.
The history of competitive fighting games is filled with stories of glitches and bugs ascending to be accepted as part of how you play the game. Heck, combos themselves were an ascended glitch and everything simple stems from there.
MrMoon360
Well-Known Member
Please explain.
What I'm talking about is giving Tag a sense of frantics and excitement, as opposed to keeping it a long, exhausting match. Two rounds minimum at that.
With the force out, you could call forth the more battered character in an attempt to end the round instead of just ending the partner. I'd rather matches be 3 out of 5 and defeat one character. Just an idea I think would be nice to experiment with.
They did at least cap how much health can be regenerated once its lost. No full health bars.
DOA is already a back away, back away, back away meta-frenzy (especially for those without force techs and follow-ups). Why make a game advocate wins due to time up?
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Can't time out with infinite time. And even time outs are still better than tge superjuggles to me. At least time outs can be intense, since that becomes a.race against time, literally.
Exactly. It's why I don't have much respect for people who are out to win "at all.costs.". Most of the time they are terrible players, just trying one cookie cutter pattern over and over that they think will get them the quickest win if it lands (hence people spending entire matches trying to setup juggles instead of doing mixup or anything).
It's part of why I don't consider wins and losses to mean anything. You can just find one braindead combo and get a win, or hell, even just win on a fluke, especially with all the guaranteed damage setups.
It's how good they are at adapting and utilizing their characters, is what I consider to make a good player. Also makes things a lot less boring than someone just trying to "win at all costs.". Usually all that means is "oh hell this guys just gonna spend the entire match trying to do some combo he looked up online, what an amateur...). But anyways i digress.
It's like...I don't mind losing either, I'd just rather the GAME be entertaining, yaknow? Specially since this is supposed to be fighting entertainment.
But yeah. Is still like an option to have tag without superjuggles so I could have legit tag matches.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Okay wait I'm sorry, that's bs lol. Playing to win isn't playing at at a higher level...its just playing to win. If anything it might just be the opposite. I mean hell I don't play to win but I still find myself at a higher level than a lot of people playing to win. Playing to win and playing at a high level are two seperate unrelated things.
An entire history based around exploiting glitches.
And people wonder why the fgc isn't taken more seriously lol.
Its sad because there are good people who whoop ass.without glitches or exploits, but they get overshadowed by the community as a whole revering glitches and exploits. Which, at least to me, says that a good portion of the community doesn't want to get better, they just want to exploit bad design.
It's why i truly believe that if games were to be talent seriously, they shpuld get a ref and code of conduct like amy other real sport. At least curb the bs, yaknow?
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You're an idiot.
phoenix1985gr
Active Member
DR2K
Well-Known Member
You're naturally racing against time with juggle damage as it is. Taking that away will lead to mindless keep away, turtling, and timer scam bs taking priority. It's like you want to turn tag into SFxTKv2012.
d3v
Well-Known Member
Separate maybe, but not unrelated.
The problem here is that you are equating high level play with character familiarity/mastery. The truth is, high level play is more about mastery of your opponent than of your character. It's about what we call "yomi", that is, being able to read your opponent. From there, it's less about knowing a large number of moves from which to attack with, but simply knowing enough to be able to punish your opponent efficiently. When you can read your opponent like an open book, then all you need is a few effective moves and punishes that put the match in your favor.
To put it simply, to truly be able to reach high level play, you do need to play to win (or more precisely dump the scrub mentality), because high level play is all about exploiting holes and weaknesses in your opponent while minimizing your own.
The sad thing here is that you don't realize that this scrub mentality that you're displaying is in fact what is holding you back from getting better.
This is dumb.
If we're going to use a sports analogy, you don't see referees stopping players from doing things just because they're opponent is weak against it. You don't see referees telling an NBA team to stop repeatedly going for three pointers against an opponent with weak outside defense. You don't see umpires telling pitchers to stop throwing curve balls against a batter who always strikes out against them.
For real life examples, you never saw the NFL tell Michael Vick to stop running 30 yards or more (including this epic 46 yard run) unheard of for a QB in that day and age. You don't see the FIA telling the Red Bull F1 Team to make their cars slower despite the fact that they've been dominating the F1 championship since 2010.
