DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

[DrDogg]

I like your solutions and I'm totally with you, but I can't leave the comment on SC unchallenged. There is SO much guessing in that game and it's of the same type as in VF - high/low, but the quality of the mind game is so much lower because of the ambiguous animation and the stupid exceptions to the high/low/mid standards (fast evading launching mids, messed up hitboxes) - throw in fast unblockables and a wakeup game with such poor options for the defender, but to just guess... I like the game enough but it is not a game where you do not guess!

When I play Soul Calibur, I almost never guess... and I'm successful at it (made it out of my Evo pool in winner's and lost to the top Singapore player who ended up taking 2nd overall). In DOA, I am forced to guess pretty much every time I attack and every time I get hit. There's no option for safer, smarter play... there's only guessing.

Now in SC I have the OPTION to guess, but it's just that, an OPTION. If a low is too fast to see coming, it's almost always negative on hit, inflicts minimal damage or lacks range. There are a few exceptions, but that's the general rule. If you play SC by guessing more than you do in DOA, you're not good at SC.

You're forced to guess more in VF than you are in SC, but even then it's more about guessing a throw break and when/how to evade. It's not the basis of the game like it is with DOA.

In the E3 build of DOA5, if you block Zack's PP, it becomes a 100% guessing game. Anything Zack can do after PP is unsafe and throw-punishable. As a defender, you are forced to guess when Zack will stop attacking. If you just block forever, Zack will free-cancel and throw you or free-cancel and go into another string. If I don't want to guess, I have to hope the Zack player finishes his entire string so I can punish without guessing.

In no other fighting game, including SC, does anything even remotely resembling this situation occur. BUT... if you made more of Zack's attacks safe, this wouldn't be anywhere near as big of an issue. That's why ALL I'm asking for at this point is more safe attacks.

 

[Rikuto]

Now in SC I have the OPTION to guess, but it's just that, an OPTION. If a low is too fast to see coming, it's almost always negative on hit, inflicts minimal damage or lacks range. There are a few exceptions, but that's the general rule. If you play SC by guessing more than you do in DOA, you're not good at SC.

Hey!

 

[DrDogg]

Hey!

Well, you play Astaroth... so you don't have much of a choice. But at least you get rewarded way more than most other characters when you make a correct guess.

 

[Matt Ponton]

BUT... if you made more of Zack's attacks safe, this wouldn't be anywhere near as big of an issue. That's why ALL I'm asking for at this point is more safe attacks.

So tell me again how you're not guessing after you've blocked Zack's safe string. What's he going to do after his safe string? What are you going to do after you block the string?

 

[DrDogg]

So tell me again how you're not guessing after you've blocked Zack's safe string. What's he going to do after his safe string? What are you going to do after you block the string?

That depends on how safe it is. If it's -4, then I'm going to go on the offensive. If he's at 0, then it depends on how fast my character is compared to Zack. If I have a 9-frame jabber, then I'm going to go on the offensive. If Zack is at advantage, then I won't do anything because I'd be at disadvantage.

In all situations, I'm not being forced to guess. Maybe you should explain how you'd be guessing in that situation.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Zack could opt to hold, attack, block, or throw at that point, all four options are viable to counteract what you're going to possibly do. He could opt for a low attack or high crush to crush your '9 frame jabber', he could grab your guard. In most cases he'll probably opt for an attack if he knows it's safe from throws as most players are conditioned to throw after guarding an attack. However, you can't logically predict what he will do as much as he can logically predict what you can do. So, using your terminology, he's guessing and you're forced to make a decision at that moment on which of his four viable options you're going to counteract.

Whereas, if he's unsafe, you're guaranteed throw punishment granting you damage for successfully reading his attack by guarding. I don't see any guessing being done after guarding an unsafe attack.

 

[DrDogg]

Zack could opt to hold, attack, block, or throw at that point, all four options are viable to counteract what you're going to possibly do. He could opt for a low attack or high crush to crush your '9 frame jabber', he could grab your guard. In most cases he'll probably opt for an attack if he knows it's safe from throws as most players are conditioned to throw after guarding an attack. However, you can't logically predict what he will do as much as he can logically predict what you can do. So, using your terminology, he's guessing and you're forced to make a decision at that moment on which of his four viable options you're going to counteract.

Whereas, if he's unsafe, you're guaranteed throw punishment granting you damage for successfully reading his attack by guarding. I don't see any guessing being done after guarding an unsafe attack.

If Zack attacks from disadvantage, he loses. If he blocks, I'm in no danger. If he throws, I get a HCH. His only reliable option based on your list is to counter, but that's not favorable for the Zack player and would not be an intelligent decision. So while he CAN guess all of those things, he's not forced to, it's an option. He can and should simply block since he's at disadvantage. This is no different than a similar situation in other fighting games, except that DOA gives Zack a universal instant counter. That's not going away though, so we'll just leave it at that.

The way things are now, with Zack being super unsafe, he does PP and now it's a series of forced guesses until Zack either lands a hit or decides to stop attacking. And if he decides to stop attacking before the end of a string (which would be the most common action taken), I am forced to guess when I'm supposed to punish or simply not punish at all and HOPE that he either finishes the string entirely, or stops attacking without going for a throw.

Are you saying you'd rather keep Zack and the rest of the cast super unsafe as opposed to having more safe options?

 

[Matt Ponton]

This is no different than a similar situation in other fighting games, except that DOA gives Zack a universal instant counter.

Stupid LP Shoryukens . I hate them.

Are you saying you'd rather keep Zack and the rest of the cast super unsafe as opposed to having more safe options?

Having everything safe would just be as bad to me as having everything unsafe. A happy medium needs to be found, but I think you keep confusing people by saying anytime someone has to decide on an action they are 'guessing'. And no, as I said, he can logically do an attack that is a crush, most of the deep stuns come from slower attacks that are around i16 so if he expects you to do a high or mid then he can opt for a crush or trade.

 

[DrDogg]

Having everything safe would just be as bad to me as having everything unsafe. A happy medium needs to be found, but I think you keep confusing people by saying anytime someone has to decide on an action they are 'guessing'. And no, as I said, he can logically do an attack that is a crush, most of the deep stuns come from slower attacks that are around i16 so if he expects you to do a high or mid then he can opt for a crush or trade.

When did I say I want everything to be safe? I specifically said I'd like to see 10-15% more safe attacks. At best, that would give Zack ~20 safe attacks out of the ~100 in his move list. Tell me how that's "having everything safe". Tell me how that would make things worse.

And both players have a ton of options in any situation. I'm referring to the FORCED GUESSING that happens with the current system. The smart thing for the Zack player to do in your scenario is to block. He can go for a crush, counter, attack, or whatever, but those are nothing more than bad options. He's not forced to do anything. He can choose to make a guess and hope it works out for him, but it's his choice, it's not forced upon him.

If everything is unsafe as it currently is, both players are FORCED to guess when they're going to stop attacking/attempt a punish, because the Zack player is FORCED to use the string delay and free-canceling system to keep the defender from GUESSING right and punishing.

 

[Rikuto]

Get -4.

Fuzzy guard into side step. Avoid the universe. Kill the rabbit.

Just a thought, anyway... the math should work though I've no idea on the application honestly.

 

[Matt Ponton]

When did I say you wanted everything to be safe? I merely was making a statement that I know we both agree to for the sake of the others reading this thread.

You're jumping around time here. One minute you're talking about a un/safe attack at the end of the string, and the next you're talking about guarding an attack in the middle of a string. Forced guessing as you define it doesn't appear to happen to me at the end of a string after you've guarded the final attack and the opponent is unsafe. How is making the final attack a safe attack supposed to fix an issue you have with attacks at mid string with the fear of finishing the string being the determining factor of safeness?

 

[Rikuto]

It doesn't fix that problem.

But does fix the problem of attacks being stupid unsafe.

And it also lays the groundwork for justification on trimming down the delay windows, which helps to fix the original problem. Brick by brick we go...

 

[Matt Ponton]

It doesn't fix that problem.

But Bryan is implying that it will, and that's where the confusion is coming from.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Stop trying to turn DOA into something its not.

A fighting game?

 

[Rikuto]

But Bryan is implying that it will, and that's where the confusion is coming from.

Well it does... eventually.

It's a brick by brick process.

You can't justify killing the delay until you make the attacks safe, because if you killed the delay with everything unsafe people would be getting punished every time they sneeze. that would be horrible, so for now we need that faux pressure.

When attacks ARE safe, you CAN justify removing/shortening the delay because there is no major immediate danger in simply finishing your basic attacks.


By going that route, in that order, you solve both problems.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Wow. I laughed out loud at this.

VF5 is checkers?

hahahahahahaha

You can compare this to real life when people in real life can teleport, fall from story-high buildings and get up and fight, should firebals, are made from gelatanous goop, or can keep somebody suspended in the air with jabs.

FYI: There are already UFC games, so I imagine those would be closer to what you're suggesting DoA is.

What is checkers? A game of 50/50's.

What is VF? Oh no, I'm smarter than you.

You want to bring real life into it? How about this? If I punched you in the face you think I'm going to sit there for a few seconds and let you shake it off? Hell no I'm going to keep punching you in the face. Playing DoA4 is like saying "hey I punched you but I'm real nice and going to sit here and let you get a turn in"

.

Have you ever been in a real fight against someone who knows how to fight?

Matter of fact did you even watch that MMA fight I posted? People don't always throw combo's in real life idiot. You jab, you wait for your opponent to react and then you take what he gives you.

You feint, you dodge, if you tag me I back up, or I tie you up., or maybe I'm a little dazed but I get my senses back and then I throw a punch that lands flush on you and now YOU'RE on the defensive!

In real life you don't just punch me in the face and I fall over every single time.

Oh and if you tired to punch ME in the face I'd just buck you to the pavement, grab your arm and break it.

Trying to turn it to something its not!? I'm so sorry that DoA4 is the only DoA you have ever played and that you enjoy it. Like I said, you're more than welcome to continue playing that POS game but most of us are trying to get DoA to go back to its roots. The majority of the stuff that we have asked for were all in previous DoA games.

Again, you're a jackass for assuming this - I played DOA2U online just the same as everyone else here and when I was 9 - 10 there was an arcade down the street from my house that had a DOA cabinet.

But you? You NEVER played DOA4 competitively. You never came offline when it mattered and you were always a mediocre DOA player on your best day.

You wanna take DOA back to its roots? With a sidestepping system that barely works like in 3.1? Or a wall game that was so ridiculous that it was akin to gameover once someone pushed you into it? Or counters that did so much damage it was funny? Or a game where you're only competitive if you're playing with 4 or 5 characters?

What fucking roots are you trying to get back to?

Anyway, Dr. Dogg hit the nail on the head and luckily they aren't listening to you guys as much as you'd like so DOA is probably going to end up being closer to what I want anyway.

 

[DrDogg]

When did I say you wanted everything to be safe?

Here...

Having everything safe would just be as bad to me as having everything unsafe.

This statement implies you're claiming I said this. No one else said this and you were talking directly to me. Why else would you make this statement if no one said anything of the sort?

You're jumping around time here. One minute you're talking about a un/safe attack at the end of the string, and the next you're talking about guarding an attack in the middle of a string. Forced guessing as you define it doesn't appear to happen to me at the end of a string after you've guarded the final attack and the opponent is unsafe. How is making the final attack a safe attack supposed to fix an issue you have with attacks at mid string with the fear of finishing the string being the determining factor of safeness?

You were the one that brought up attacks at the end of strings. I said nothing about that until you chimed in with a scenario of options that would occur at the end of a string. Before you brought that up, all I said was that Zack needs to be safer, and I referenced all of the guessing that happens after blocking PP, which is not the end of a string.

The problem is that you never have to finish a string in DOA. If you do, it's usually because you're guessing/hoping the opponent will try to interrupt before you get to the end of the string, so the last hit connects on CH or HCH. The string delay and free-cancel system create a false sense of safety, which promotes/forces guessing.

But I already stated that string delay and free-canceling aren't going away, and I'm okay with that. All I want is to see more safe attacks so that you aren't forced into this play style and can actually play with much less risk.

When stances are involved it's even worse. Why would you want to cancel into Zack's Ducking stance when the opponent gets a guaranteed low throw on block every time?

 

[Skilletor]

What is checkers? A game of 50/50's.

What is VF? Oh no, I'm smarter than you.

You make me laugh.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

You make me laugh.

All I'm saying is that there is a definitive right in almost every situation in Virtua Fighter, in checkers its the same deal.

Make a single mistake in checkers and its over, make a mistake in an actual fight and you still have a shot at winning.

 

[Skilletor]

All I'm saying is that there is a definitive right in almost every situation in Virtua Fighter, in checkers its the same deal.

Make a single mistake in checkers and its over, make a mistake in an actual fight and you still have a shot at winning.

No worries. I disagree with you on your ideologies/analogies with other games, but regarding DoA we are on the same page.