DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

[BlackOrochi]

Way to completely ignore my point. Forget Evo (where MK was the only game this year to have an international 5v5),

Nice try, Dogg. Care to share the list of contestants? I'm sure it's filled with international players...

EDIT: And either way, it could be a promotional stunt by MK to try to boost slacking international sales... A tournament labelled "international" isn't a testimony to international success.

MK gets solid turnouts at almost every tournament it's featured at... significantly larger than anything DOA has ever seen.

Are you comparing MK & DOA tournaments held at the same event? Because if not, that argument doesn't fly.

Not to mention DOA has never had a competitive scene anywhere in the world.

That only supports what I just said about DOA cutting itself from the world since DOA3... But I believe that the competitive scene will grown worldwide thanks to Tecmo's global multi-platform strategy and promotion. Not the game engine.

 

[Kronin]

besides all that its not a good idea to call people out on their DOA fandom here on FSD. on any other site you couldn't throw a rock without hitting 5 noobfags bitching about costumes and pointless shit. on FSD its pretty much the exact opposite of that.

Agreed, and well appreciated from the FSD community.

What makes a game tournament-viable isn't the debate on nerfed holds, nor the chase to grant guaranteed combos like all other fighting games. It's the community. Not the community that cries the loudest, but the community that has the most players.

I see a slight contradiction in these post, anyway I think it's useless return on this argument..

 

[Rikuto]

snip

I don't think Drdogg is trying to say that MK or DOA needs to have a world audience, nor do I think he is saying that any game needs a world audience.

He is saying it needs an audience at some level beyond a handful of 8 man tournaments every year. MK has that... it is featured regularly at tournaments across the US, on a weekly basis, and has consistently decent turnout. I can't say the same for other regions of the world nor do I need to, because MK at least has that. DOA does not, and has not, ever. Here or anywhere.

DOA has like one tournament a year, with basically zero turnout. Even when DOA 4 was in its prime, the only time it got a presence was at EVO, and it was a pathetic presence compared to every other game on the lineup with most of the contestants there to snipe the money.

I went out of my way to attend these tournaments back in the day... a major for DOA was comparable to a monthly for the less mainstream games that are actually played. And this is in the country that actually has people playing DOA (in theory).

 

[Shinigamimatt]

We want DOA to at least have something. DOA's popularity will hopefully crawl out of a gutter for DOA5.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Nice try, Dogg. Care to share the list of contestants? I'm sure it's filled with international players...

Are you reading the same thread as the rest of us? DrDogg gave you an example of a non-Capcom game that had a healthy competitive scene until the game quality suffered. Said competitive scene suffered for countless years until the game became a solid one again. Your response was "Well, only the US likes MK." What?

Are you comparing MK & DOA tournaments held at the same event? Because if not, that argument doesn't fly.

Your argument isn't valid either because no one holds DOA at events.

That only supports what I just said about DOA cutting itself from the world since DOA3... But I believe that the competitive scene will grown worldwide thanks to Tecmo's global multi-platform strategy and promotion. Not the game engine.

How does that support your argument? DOA1 and 2 were multiplatform and didn't have huge scenes either. He said DOA has never had a healthy scene anywhere in the world. Despite that, DOA3.1 probably had the biggest competitive scene for DOA even with being Xbox-exclusive.

 

[Berzerk!]

1: holds in stun won't turn people of he game just on principle if the game is balanced in terms of risk/reward/punishment. You'd have to be quite ignorant to hold it against the game rather than LEARN the game and how to work with its systems.
It doesn't have to work like other games - again assuming its balanced under its own rules/logic. Its been quite clear how things have changed around the hold and that it is a much stronger system with good competitive options.
It's now up to tournament play and feedback to see how well it bears out.
But it's not a wrong thing on principle.
Edit: in fact, it's a misleading to say it has holds in stun because that's no longer universally the case. Now that you can't hold in sit down, wall lift, limbo, cb stun etc, it's more true to say it has the ability to counter out of some stuns, so your goal is to put them in the right stun and exploit it. You can see right there how the game has changed, before talking about the mindgame of punishing holds

2: tournament viability is not about the above, it's about the community. Yes, the community has to be happy with a game for a game to reach its potential but don't tell me every sf fan loves every aspect of sf4.

3: don't ignore the fact, when looking back at history of Doa tournaments that Doa has never been around in a post sf4 world. Mk9 as a comparison, the BIGGEST factor after it being considered a good game by fans and casuals (with no presumptions on tournament viability over just being a fun game) - is the fact that it came back with a bigger, more interested fighting game audience. Couple that with the advent of YouTube and streaming which weren't a real factor before sf4 and you have a totally new environment Doa5 is coming into.

Besides all that, the game looks really good and it's illogical to think the very positive progression to he e3 build will suddenly reverse. DrDogg said there is no evidence in the videos here to think they've fixed or not fixed a number of things - nor is there evidence they have gone back on the positive changes to the game.

 

[BlackOrochi]

Are you reading the same thread as the rest of us? DrDogg gave you an example of a non-Capcom game that had a healthy competitive scene until the game quality suffered. Said competitive scene suffered for countless years until the game became a solid one again. Your response was "Well, only the US likes MK." What?

I was referring to MK's particular popularity and presence in tournaments. But I admit having read the passage a little fast. Apologies to the Dr.
MK is a good example of a comeback, but pales in comparison with titles that enjoy established global fandom such as SF or TEKKEN. DOA currently has the potential to exceed MK's presence IMO.

Your argument isn't valid either because no one holds DOA at events.

My question to DrDogg wasn't a counter-argument. It was a validation check, which Rikuto answered.

How does that support your argument? DOA1 and 2 were multiplatform and didn't have huge scenes either. He said DOA has never had a healthy scene anywhere in the world. Despite that, DOA3.1 probably had the biggest competitive scene for DOA even with being Xbox-exclusive.

You really want to use DOA1 & 2 as references? Because back in the day, when they came out, the fighting game community was far from being what it is today. I'm not even sure the internet was widespread. Heck, even EVO wasn't that big... And if you add the fact that the Dreamcast was a dying console and DOA3.1 was going exclusive on a console that was just being launched, of course the DOA competitive scene built on DOA1 & 2 was going suffer. No surprises there.

 

[Kronin]

snip

I agree, and overall the third point is something to not be understimated.

 

[Allan Paris]

New Topic created.

I agree, and overall the third point is something to not be understimated.

Please stop changing your text color to black, white, or any other color that will be hard to read. Thanks.

 

[grap3fruitman]

New Topic created.

The first post in this thread has nothing to do with the topic title and was specifically related to the topic from which you removed it...

 

[DrDogg]

You really want to use DOA1 & 2 as references? Because back in the day, when they came out, the fighting game community was far from being what it is today. I'm not even sure the internet was widespread. Heck, even EVO wasn't that big... And if you add the fact that the Dreamcast was a dying console and DOA3.1 was going exclusive on a console that was just being launched, of course the DOA competitive scene built on DOA1 & 2 was going suffer. No surprises there.

Was the competitive scene back in the late 90s and early 2000s as robust as it is today? No, but that didn't stop SF, Tekken, SC and MK from having larger scenes than DOA has ever had.

You can come back with reason after reason about why you think DOA has never had a competitive scene, but the simple fact is that these other fighters enjoyed good competitive scenes despite all of your reasons. The post SF4 reassurance isn't enough to help DOA create a good tournament scene. If you think otherwise, look at the people here who will not play DOA if it doesn't improve. If fans of past DOA games won't play, what makes you think others will play AND travel for tournaments? If the people here won't travel, who else is going to travel for the game?

Can you even name 30 people who would go to an out of state tournament just for DOA? Because I can easily name 30 for SF, Tekken, SC and MK.

New Topic created.

I'm also a bit confused at the thread split. You can't expect topics to remain 100% on-topic no matter what.

 

[Berzerk!]

People will travel for the game if it's at big tournaments. Even if it doesn't improve much beyond the e3 build.
Local communities will need to feed players into those tournaments and over time you new fans of the game to keep enjoying the game. So long as you have that, people will play.
I can already see good crossover with the people who play sc5 and vf5, and I think Doa will end up being better than sc and not as good as vf but providing a nice alternate flavor.
Ruling the game out over whether they do or do not make X or Y change is a players prerogative but that won't influence the majority of players who decide if they want to play, aside from it being best not to prejudge.
Finally dedicated tournament organizers need to commit at grassroots level

 

[Allan Paris]

I'm also a bit confused at the thread split. You can't expect topics to remain 100% on-topic no matter what.

Granted and I understand that completely. That particular thread was derailed twice. The first time a few posts were deleted. The second time, 2 pages consisted of this particular topic. Even when I asked to get back on topic near the end of a page, the conversation continued on for another whole page.

This seems to be important to some, so I gave it its own thread. I am pretty sure this topic will continue to go on.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

We should all want DOA to be a competitive fighting game but if the culture here is to cater to what outsiders want, who've never put in the time to get good at the game, who've only played it at a mediocre level at best then maybe some of the people pushing that particular agenda need to go be a part of another FG community.

See, I get it, the culture here is to bend over backwards for high level players in other communities, who are DOA scrubs, and to try and make the game into something that is easier for them to play.

They don't want holds in stun - yeah, take em out.

They want as much guaranteed as possible - yeah, give it to em.

DOA4 died because you guys went to EVO and played that shit on normal. You get one chance to impress and if people are playing DOA and the match is over in 10 seconds on counters that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

If counters doing too much damage is their complaint (And if you really get right down to it, it is) then play the game on a larger life setting where counters aren't as big a factor and you have time to get a better read on your opponent.

DOA is different in that there are different ways to play every character. You can poke with Zack, you can be combo heavy with Bass, you can play Elliot like a grappler and be SUCCESSFUL if your opponent doesn't catch on to your gameplan in time.

DOA has always been about you versus another human being, not a spread sheet vs. a spread sheet.

If you want to appeal to the comptitive community explain that to them or you can keep doing what you're doing and let your opinions be colored by people who have never given the game a honest chance (Think about the amount of money that was at stake during the CGS - you can't tell me that any of the competitive minded players at Shoryuken gave DOA a shot because if they did they would have been lined up outside that sound stage in 2007 with the rest of us.)

 

[Hurricane Rev]

The only way that DOA5 will have a strong community is by players that are willing to travel to tournaments/events and there are regular tournaments for the game. I believe that DOA4 didn't have such a strong scene because of the following reasons...........

1) Not many players liked the game enough to back the game in their country.
2) The DOA US scene was slightly messed up due to Politics within the community.
3) The community was too heavily active online rather than offline.

But saying that, I am surprised that DOA4 didn't have a strong scene in the US. I don't think anyone has mentioned that there was Championship Gaming Series, which was very big for DOA4 at that time. There were many intense matches that was happening on the show and I used to really like watching matches on the show.

Now, DOA5 really needs some kind of a tournament that is on every week or 2 or maybe every month. DOA5 needs something similar to Wednesday Night Fights in order to get the community active and try to make the community from there. I believe that this is the most important thing on making the scene stronger.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

You guys just need to accept that playing DOA4 on normal to try and make characters like Bass, Brad and Bayman more viable cost the competitive scene credibility - theres no much more to it than that people.

 

[DrDogg]

People will travel for the game if it's at big tournaments. Even if it doesn't improve much beyond the e3 build.
Local communities will need to feed players into those tournaments and over time you new fans of the game to keep enjoying the game. So long as you have that, people will play.
I can already see good crossover with the people who play sc5 and vf5, and I think Doa will end up being better than sc and not as good as vf but providing a nice alternate flavor.
Ruling the game out over whether they do or do not make X or Y change is a players prerogative but that won't influence the majority of players who decide if they want to play, aside from it being best not to prejudge.
Finally dedicated tournament organizers need to commit at grassroots level

What are you basing that on? DOA4 was at Evo and had the lowest turnout of almost any game featured at Evo in the history of the event. Hubbs and Manny have had plenty of DOA4 tournaments over the years with the average turnout being 10 players. Even the CGS combines only had 30-40 people show up.

Multiple tournaments have already been announced after Sept 25. All of them feature TTT2, not a single one that I've seen mentions DOA5. This game does not have some sort of automatic tournament scene, and the community will not be able to build one without a solid game to build upon. This has already been proven in the past. I don't even understand how you can debate this when all you have to go on is "hope", "wishful thinking" and the talk of a handful of players who have yet to take DOA5 serious, or even take a character into training mode.

Granted and I understand that completely. That particular thread was derailed twice. The first time a few posts were deleted. The second time, 2 pages consisted of this particular topic. Even when I asked to get back on topic near the end of a page, the conversation continued on for another whole page.

This seems to be important to some, so I gave it its own thread. I am pretty sure this topic will continue to go on.

It should at least be in the DOA5 forum. This discussion has nothing to do with any other DOA.

 

[grap3fruitman]

We should all want DOA to be a competitive fighting game but if the culture here is to cater to what outsiders want, who've never put in the time to get good at the game, who've only played it at a mediocre level at best then maybe some of the people pushing that particular agenda need to go be a part of another FG community.

I didn't realize that Rikuto, DrDogg, myself and most of this forum were considered "DOA outsiders." Shows what I know, huh?

You guys just need to accept that playing DOA4 on normal to try and make characters like Bass, Brad and Bayman more viable cost the competitive scene credibility - theres no much more to it than that people.

...

 

[DriftSlave]

Grap3, it's obvious he wants to play DOA4...so let him play DOA4....if DOA5 turns out to be DOA4.2 then you already know whats going to happen...

 

[TRI Mike]

I still think TN are doing a great job with the game. It won't be perfect but from the trailers it's obvious that it's a HUGE (read: HUUUUUGE) step forwards from DOA4 and Dimensions. It's gonna be solid, but not popular. The same fate suffered by KOF13 and VF5FS and hell... even BlazBlue.