134 people for KOF13 at Evo: http://bbr.s23.eatj.com/evoweb2K12/players/kof13/index
193 people for VF5FS at Evo: http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/332342/VF5FS Brackets for EVO 2012
DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability
- Thread starter BlackOrochi
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193 people for VF5FS at Evo: http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/332342/VF5FS Brackets for EVO 2012
Raansu
Well-Known Member
DoA4 evo 2006 - barely breaks 80 people, only 20 or so were actually doa players. The rest were sniping for an easy win.
Game Over
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure the count for DOA4 at EVO was like 63 or something. 80 is TOO generous!
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Was it? I thought it was a little over 80. Either way the point has been made.
Hurricane Rev
Active Member
If DOA5 will be at Evo 2013, then I'm hoping that the numbers will be MUUUCCHHH greater than the ones for DOA4 at Evo. I'm planning on going to Evo next year and I'm hoping that the game will do well at Evo.
Just wondering, is there any vids of DOA4 at Evo by any chance?
Just wondering, is there any vids of DOA4 at Evo by any chance?
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
It should be, look in the media library.
If none are in the media library then you can get the semi-finals matches - or at least 1.5 matches here at the 1:53:00 mark: http://www.twitch.tv/srkevo1/b/322918744
Raansu
Well-Known Member
That's extremely wishful thinking...
There is something that many have forgot about Doa4's tournament History. Many players were interested in what Doa4 was shaping up to be. You even had players like sundownPnP travel from Mexico to compete. The problem was not player enthusiasm, Doa4 was just utter trash. No matter what Sorwah, Tom or myself try to find that would bring some validity, the game will always show that it is trash. The stuff that we are seeing now, is pretty much the things that we were seeing with the transition from Doa3.1 to Doa4 X05 build, and much more. If Doa5 is anything like Doa3.1, there will be a lot more people playing it than Doa4 ever had. At the end of the day, if the core supporters are not happy, than hope of survival is futile. Since this is not the case, the odds are in our favor.
Relius Starkiller
Active Member
All I hear coming from Dr. Dogg and Rikuto are how no one outside of the DOA community wants holds in stun and how we should mold the game to fit into the preconceptions that other fighting game communities believe a solid fighting game should be.
And you're terribad at all DOA games so who really gives a crap what you think? You only get their respect because you agree with what they are saying but I've never seen you construct a decent argument, with your own personal perspective, as to why you think holds should be in stun and most of there other questionable idea's those two propose.
P.S you have no rubuttle to anything else I laid forth because you either A) Know its true or B) You aren't in the know enough to comment on it.
Probably both.
Baron West
Member
Just like to point out something about the size of the fighting game community during the DOA1 era. Around that time Tekken 3 and VF2 sold more copies than any other game in their respective series. So there were essentially more people playing those games than there are playing the sequels today. They just weren't as organized in terms of holding events. Yet even my little local arcade held Tekken 3 tournaments. The U.S. Tekken scene wasn't particularly cohesive, but there was definitely a scene. You couldn't go to an Arcade that had T3 and not find people lined up to play it. I knew very few people with a PS1 who didn't have Tekken 3.
As for VF2, it came out on the Saturn which sold extremely small numbers, and ended up being the best selling Saturn game. There was considerable scene in Japan at the time. I know this because one of my classmates played VF2 quite extensively. So despite being released on a system that sold small numbers, and being console exclusive, VF2 was the best selling game both on the Saturn and in the VF series. DOA1 was also released on the Saturn and it simply didn't perform as well, despite being a very solid game for it's time. Still the competition was stiff.
Around that time Street Fighter EX, Rival Schools, Bloody Roar, and Soul Blade also came out. While all of them were successful enough to spawn sequels, and each had their own merits they didn't enjoy the massive popularity that TK and VF did. Lots of games tried to shine during that time.
Let's not lay the blame for DOAs sales on any game system. Soul Calibur and MvC2 were also released on the Dreamcast and they both enjoyed widespread popularity.
Tekken Tag Tournament was a launch title for the PS2 and it was very successful. It also had a very big tournament scene, both on console and arcade. The same cannot be said for DOA2. The closest thing that DOA2 had to an arcade scene was in ATL in 2000. There were about 16~20ish players primarily from the AUC, GA State, and GA Tech who played the game at the West-End Mall. Unfortunately, the game was permanent set to Tag Mode, which meant broken tag combos galore. In retrospect the high combo damage from strikes in Tag mode, offset the abusive nature of holds. People played for a couple of months, and then everyone transitioned over to the Underground arcade play Tekken Tag Tournament. And that was that.
Unless anyone else here played the arcade version of DOA2 on a regular basis, that's pretty much the extent of it's tournament 'scene', which isn't saying much compared to it's contemporaries. All of this is to reiterate that there was no competitive scene for DOA1 & DOA2.
BlackOrochi, Rikuto's statement is eloquent in it's brevity. Players who have attended tournaments and events of other games are aware of how truly miniscule DOA events are in comparison. These players are more likely to have friends who also play fighting games competitively. Players seldom play just play one fighting game competitively...they play more than one title. Often these players have tried to get their friends to play DOA, but have met resistance primarily because of [holds out of stun]. On top of [holds out of stun] people don't like the damage holds and throws do compared to strike combos.
Yes, you can say 'well if they don't like it they can play another game'. That's absolutely correct. That's what has happened in the past, and that's why DOA has no tournament scene. If that continues to happen DOA will continue to have a nonexistent tournament scene. That's why most of the competitive players are so adamant about changes to the game system. They know that they won't be able to bring in players from other games unless there is a change. For them playing online is not a substitute for playing at tourneys offline.
Competitive players play the game mostly based on how much they like and understand the nuances of the game engine. That's what separates them from casuals who don't care to learn the game engine.
The only fighting games that can get away with having a poor game engine, and still enjoy success are with pre-existing material, that can sell based off their name alone. Anime based games like Naruto and DBZ Budokai for example. They don't need to worry about gameplay as long as it's enough to please the fans.
DOA does not have that luxury. Unless I'm misinterpreting you, you're saying that advertising and being on more than one system is more important than gameplay. Advertising might help sell a game, but it won't encourage people to keep playing it once they buy it. And it certainly won't prevent them from return it if they don't like it.
Since this argument has been going on for a while, in various forms, I don't really expect to change anyone's minds. I play DOA despite it's numerous flaws because it's fun. Most of the competitive players here play it for the exact same reason. However the competitive players realize that people who play other fighting games competitive will NOT be as open minded as we are to DOA's engine.
It would be nice if a mysterious pool of dedicated DOA players emerged out of nowhere to support a tournament scene, but that's unlikely. It hasn't happened in any of the prequels. Thus the competitive players believe the only way to get more people interested in DOA is to take them from other games. Casual players don't believe that this is necessary, yet don't offer any alternatives, and struggle to give explanations that the competitive players can understand. And thus the debate continues ever on.
That's my two cents. I'm off to play DOAO and sharpen my lag tactics with Lei-Fang.
BlackOrochi
Member
Despite all my reasons?... Look, you can choose and continue to claim that DOA's lack of presence is due to an engine or game mechanics that aren't (so called) "tournament-viable". I choose to consider other holistic factors beyond the in-game nips and tucks and other technical mumbo-jumbo that should, according to many of you, magically fix the DOA scene, without anything happening at a higher level. While many things that happened around DOA for the past +10 years, I'm honestly surprised by your willingness to blank that.
I'll say it again, and you can choose to ignore this again : DOA came out as a contender, and has remained as such due to other factors beyond its game engine and gameplay.
How do you want the current DOA scene to compare to SF, TEKKEN, or even MK? The current DOA scene is composed mostly (if not exclusively) of Xbox players since the Great Shift in 2001. That's more than 10 YEARS of DOA cutting itself from the more populous-all-time-best-selling-console Playstation crowd AND the rest of the world where Xbox has only thrived in sales as of late.
You persist in comparing DOA to other series... Well let's do:
SF: been around since 1987 (25 years!) DOA : since 1996. SF had an 11 year head start. Tough to catch up...
MK has been around since 1992, and has a particular fan-base that grew specifically in the US. A good ol' American game, played by good ol' American people. MK's so called tournament presence and players are limited to the US. Nothing DOA should be envious of if we think long term.
DOA has gone exclusive since 2001, therefore shooting itself in the foot. But wait! Tekken is an exclusive too! Yes, but only on the top-selling-console of all-time. No match in terms of potential number of players... Thank God DOA5 goes multi-platform, or else DOA would've died with or without you're guaranteed-combo-fix crusade.
Oh no, we're doomed... the 1% of current Xbox DOA players will boycott our DOA tournaments! Thank God we got 99% multi-platform players left to count on.
With DOA4's exclusive Xbox narrow-ass crowd ya'll still surprised by the turnout numbers... lmao
In that respect, yes, complete misinterpretation. I am absolutely NOT saying that advertizing surpasses gameplay. Never have, never will.
My approach was more complementary, because I would never discredit the experience of seasoned tournament veterans. I just wanted to clarify a nuance in what makes a game tournament-viable, not only technically but popularly.
I found your post brilliant, but why do you think that DOA won't enjoy a new pool of players in spite of this whole new context? A lot of non Xbox players are actually willing to step back into the ring to compete.
DriftSlave
Active Member
I doubt Console Exclusivity has anything to do with it....if TVC has a decent Turnout...then it dont matter.
it sounds ike your just a PS3 fanboy to me which is just fine,but irrelevant.anyhow its already going multiplatform so i fail to see the point of this
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Your argument is ridiculous. So much so that I don't have much to say because you really do not understand how the tournament scene works. I've been going to tournaments for over 15 years, but I suppose my knowledge of the scene doesn't mean anything and you know all that there is to know about how DOA5 will be competitive without needing a solid gameplay foundation.
To your console exclusive comments, I simply bring up the arcade scene. There were far fewer arcade cabinets than consoles, yet there were still thriving tournament scenes for games that were arcade-exclusive. At one point Evo was arcade-only.
But nevermind that, let's look at console stuff. DOA1 was on the PS1, DOA2 was on the PS2 and the Dreamcast... still no tournament scene. But let's ignore that and just mention that being an Xbox-exclusive killed the scene. I mean it's not like Halo had much of a tournament scene... oh wait, that's an FPS so it probably doesn't count in the world you live in, right?
So feel free to ignore all of that because DOA3 and DOA4 were Xbox-exclusive and that's all that matters to you. Instead, please, please, please name 30 players who you know will travel out of state for a DOA5 tournament. DOA5 will be on PS3 and 360, and we just had a 3DS DOA game so that pretty much covers all of the bases. We should have a massive tournament scene for DOA5 so it should be easy to name a mere 30 people who will travel...
Ready...? Go!
My take is that what sets DOA apart from other FGs is TN's insistence on forcing down players throats the idea that one should always be aware of what is going on at all times to succeed. Holdable stuns, and universal delayed strings are what make DOA DOA, as they've been in each iteration. To remove them will make DOA unrecognizable, thereby alienating the fanbase and killing the beauty of DOA.
I think that at this point TN should stick to their philosophies and continue to do as they see fit (not stray too far from their formula). I think that they should begin a new fighting game with the intention of focusing on competitiveness incorporating all of the suggestions that make sense that their philosophies won't allow to fit into DOA5.
I think that at this point TN should stick to their philosophies and continue to do as they see fit (not stray too far from their formula). I think that they should begin a new fighting game with the intention of focusing on competitiveness incorporating all of the suggestions that make sense that their philosophies won't allow to fit into DOA5.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
I just don't understand what you guys think or want anymore. If most of what you people say is true, then the game should just be cancelled and this site closed. Team Ninja has added tons of new mechanics and fixed many things to the point where the game's 0.5 version is already vastly superior to DOA4 and Dimensions and 90% of the comments are still incredibly negative towards it.
I feel really confused because I agree partially with both parties. I think the game needed the changes (and still needs more) but I'm also sure TN is on the right track and from the trailers, alpha demo, E3 stream and all the shit we've been seeing I'm sure the game is already very good. Both from the artistic point of view (graphics, environments, girls, etc) and the gameplay one (sidestep, sit-down stuns, CB, etc). But I can't help but disagree completely on the way members like grap3 are acting and expressing their opinions. I really like grap3 and I see a fellow fighting game fan and hardcore gamer in him but doing things like sharing a screenshot of the pre-order's cancellation with Team Ninja and a picture saying "I'm NOT a fighter" when all you've played is the alpha seems extremely exaggerated. You think you're doing a good thing and encouraging TN to make the game you want with that, but I think it's actually the opposite. I wouldn't want to be Shimbori or Hayashi and read all the negative comments in this forum because I'd just release the game half-done or simply cancel it and make ANOTHER NG1 remake.
We're supposed to be the fans of the franchise, even if we're a community 1% the size of the SF4 one, we should think before we tweet or post something. As I said in another thread a few days ago, this site will be filled with new active members starting Sep 25th and we want them to stay, not scare them away with "The game is trash" comments. I'm not saying we should say everything is perfect because I'm well aware it isn't but we can't expect for the hardcore community to grow even a little if all the threads are full of negative feedback from the "fans".
Also, the only ones in this forum who actually know first-hand about the game are Rikuto and DrDogg because they actually played the 0.5 version and later builds while the rest of us have simply tried the alpha demo or haven't played anything at all. We have to encourage TN to add the things we want but wait until the game is done before we say it's tournament-viable or not. If by Sep 25th you don't like the game for whatever reason then just go play TTT2, VF5FS or whatever game you think is better but don't keep hurting the community.
I feel really confused because I agree partially with both parties. I think the game needed the changes (and still needs more) but I'm also sure TN is on the right track and from the trailers, alpha demo, E3 stream and all the shit we've been seeing I'm sure the game is already very good. Both from the artistic point of view (graphics, environments, girls, etc) and the gameplay one (sidestep, sit-down stuns, CB, etc). But I can't help but disagree completely on the way members like grap3 are acting and expressing their opinions. I really like grap3 and I see a fellow fighting game fan and hardcore gamer in him but doing things like sharing a screenshot of the pre-order's cancellation with Team Ninja and a picture saying "I'm NOT a fighter" when all you've played is the alpha seems extremely exaggerated. You think you're doing a good thing and encouraging TN to make the game you want with that, but I think it's actually the opposite. I wouldn't want to be Shimbori or Hayashi and read all the negative comments in this forum because I'd just release the game half-done or simply cancel it and make ANOTHER NG1 remake.
We're supposed to be the fans of the franchise, even if we're a community 1% the size of the SF4 one, we should think before we tweet or post something. As I said in another thread a few days ago, this site will be filled with new active members starting Sep 25th and we want them to stay, not scare them away with "The game is trash" comments. I'm not saying we should say everything is perfect because I'm well aware it isn't but we can't expect for the hardcore community to grow even a little if all the threads are full of negative feedback from the "fans".
Also, the only ones in this forum who actually know first-hand about the game are Rikuto and DrDogg because they actually played the 0.5 version and later builds while the rest of us have simply tried the alpha demo or haven't played anything at all. We have to encourage TN to add the things we want but wait until the game is done before we say it's tournament-viable or not. If by Sep 25th you don't like the game for whatever reason then just go play TTT2, VF5FS or whatever game you think is better but don't keep hurting the community.
Everything they've been suggesting has been with the intention of making DOA5 a solid fighting game. If DOA was suddenly a good fighter, more people outside of the DOA circle would be willing to pick it up. Yes, that would be a side-effect of making DOA5 a solid fighter, not the reason to.
Yes, I'm not the best player at a game I hate to play and haven't put any effort into as a result. I'm glad you were able to come to that conclusion on your own. What were your achievements in this game exactly? I don't recall you ever being pegged as having accomplished anything either. How's the view from your glass house? Got enough stones?
Or maybe it's because I can stand back, think, and look at things objectively.
Perhaps when (level-headed) people actually examine DOA, they all find the same flaws and come to the same conclusions? That's a ridiculous idea, right?
Honestly, I shouldn't be acknowledging your posts not because of the reason you listed but because you're worthless trash that's not worth my time. However, it's a boring Sunday night so I'll let you feel honored that I actually took the time to respond to your ramblings.
Getting sick of the same in-fighting? Haha.
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