[DOA2++] Moveset Editing Project

[TakedaZX]

This is absolutely 100% factually inaccurate. What is my incentive to mix up attacks in DOA4? They're ALL bad. So I don't want to attack period, much less "mix up" things. It's a chaotic mess. It's really, definitely a random game.
What's inaccurate is this argument...

What's my incentive to mix up attacks in DOA2/3? I have good options. A smart opponent knows what those good options are, so now I can't stick to them 100% because he or she is expecting X, Y or Z. It's an educated guess versus the chaos that is DOA4.

Do you see the difference? Do the see why the community hates DOA4 for this reason?

What's really inaccurate is the premise you're trying to stand upon.

What you just described as a great system built off of "good options" was the epitome of what DOA4 is. I hit someone with CH 3P, 3K, or 6P with Ein and I get the freedom of using his best launchers in that situation (9P, 4K, WR K). You must guess. The issue was that while things were holdable, the counter (which were holds),were too good. They were active for too long and lows holds recovered far too quickly, so you had multiple ways out. Adding the extra recovery from holding out of stun only would make it bettter for the offense.

Most people want a free ride for one hit which is fine in some cases (when someone makes a clear mistake) but honestly DOA4 was not THAT bad just because of the lack of guaranteed damage. Fixing the holds already makes the game somewhat more managable. Level up the frame data and atleast the game will become somewhat more like a regular fighter while keeping it's own flare with holds.

 

[usagiZ]

What would be the best way to get organized suggestions of changes to specific characters?

Let's assume all characters are starting off at their DOA2U state.
Most frame data will be changed to 3.1's, unless it's agreed upon to change it in a different way.

Guard crush and guard break attacks from 3.1 will be changed to frame advantage(?) attacks until guard break/crush can be implemented fully.
Edit: Guard Break, and Guard Crush have been found, and can be used. ~Still testing.

The suggested changes should be within the limits of the older games -- meaning, only DOA1-DOA3 animations can be used. Yes, some DOA1 attacks still exist.
FSD coding hasn't been found yet, so that's absorbing the most time. *dead*

Edit:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Costume suggestions are also welcome, but they are definitely not going to be top priority.
A suggest a costume thread could maybe be started in this section? But I'll probably just visit the "favorite costumes" thread for inspiration at a much later date.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You can suggest a new string by linking previous attacks --
For example: Tina's new (at 6:25 of the video in the first post) is a hodgepodge of , , and .
All of which were previously single strikes.

Should I do a poll for which mechanics you think should be implemented? other than 3.1 FSD... that's probably a must.

 

[Matt Ponton]

wall crumple.

 

[usagiZ]

Good news!* subjective o_o

This might be a bit preemptive, but -- wall crumple has been discovered! The mechanic has to be tweaked a bit, because It currently replaces the standard wall crumple, which means you can keep triggering by slamming the opponent into the wall repeatedly... So I'll see if that can be fixed. o_o
If It can't, would it be better to:
1. Keep the 3.1 wall crumple mechanic, but allow you to hold out of it?
OR
2. Revert to the standard wall crumple?
Guard break and guard crush have also been found!

Forced Backturn* (brad wong's DOA3.1 *the final kick* on block) has also been found. Is that a thing? Do we want that feature explored more? Or should we just leave it out...? I can kind of see how it could be useful for a few characters. Lei's new on block, or Gen's *the final , on block could turn the opponent around.

 

[Matt Ponton]

3.1 wall crumple, no holding out of it.

if you can't, then no wall crumple.

 

[TakedaZX]

3.1 wall crumple, no holding out of it.

if you can't, then no wall crumple.

I always thought a hybrid wall slam would be nice for DOA. I don't know how the DOA3 one measures up like this but my idea was:

Slam them into the wall and they'll go into a crumpling state just like with JL's 6T at the wall. The first hit is free so if you'd like to launch, you can and it'll be taken as stun to launch so for example:

• Hayate (Underline = Last guess)
  • W! 8P, PP6PK
  • W! 4K6K (2in1), 8P, PP6PK (Or just PP6PK depending on the gravity. DOA4 Gravity gave more options)
  • W! 9K, PP6PK
  • Sidenotes: All PP6PK's interchangeable with PP4PP and PP2KP

All of this is guaranteed... but lets say it's down to the wire and the player who gets the wall slam decides, "the wall stun to launch juggle will not finish them off, I need something more". So instead of going just for the stun to launch, he goes for a few stuns then launches so that his height is increase and he can add another chunk.

• Hayate (Bold = Guaranteed hit) (Underline = Last guess)
  • W! 6P, 3P, P, 8P, PPP, PP6PK
  • W! 6P, 3P, 4K6K, H3PP, PP6PK
  • W! 6P, 3P, P, 9K, 8P, PP6PK

It's his choice but he gets his guaranteed damage for the stun to launch wall juggle and in both cases he's getting the 10 extra points of damage of the actual splat.

Wall combos in DOA3 just gave you juggles for days, no? Is that how they worked?

 

[Gultigargar]

I've been playing a lot more DOA3 than I have DOA2U and I think they feel pretty different despite their many similarities, so I'm not exactly sure if my suggestions would actually benefit the game or not, but here goes:

ZACK
I'd like to see his get increased launch height. Right now it feels like he's forced to launch with mids if he wants any juggle damage. I think right now he can only land a after launching with it. EDIT: Basically, make it like his DOA3 8K, or better yet import that move, if possible.
I'd also like to see his / stun like in DOA3, instead of the knockdown it does in 2U.

BASS
Can't remember if you could modify throws into catch-throws, but if you can then I'd love to see Bass's turned into a long-range catch-throw like in DOA3. That move is probably one of my favorite things about playing him in 3.

TENGU
This guy is basically the reason I sometimes play 2U instead of playing DOA3 all the time, so I have a few more suggestions for him.

I always wanted his / and his / to be more distinct from each other.
I'm thinking something like removing the wall splat from and making it a string by letting him do the last hit of or his after it. (I think that's what the string was like in DOA4.)
Since you mentioned getting guard breaks to work, I thought it could be interesting to make guard break so that he has a safer way to enter his backturned stance. My reasoning behind this is that I think he has some interesting attacks from his backturned state that I'd like him to be able to use more often.
And one last thing: Maybe consider making one or both of them have the "turn opponent around on block" property and/or turning them around on hit (I think it's called Limbo stun? Like Ayane's )

Maybe revert his //Jumping back to regular DOA2 damage levels (22 for the backflip, 35 for the "air charge") or maybe somewhere in-between the two.
I just think they made it a bit too strong in 2U. It lets him get crazy high juggle damage really easily and also kind of makes his juggles less diverse. For example, in regular DOA2 you would sometimes get more damage by doing , , but in 2U you pretty much never have a reason to do anything other than , .

And finally, to sort of simulate that new attack he got in DOA4, maybe let his a string that goes into another . Not sure if it would be too strong or not, hard to say without being able to test it.

Maybe make some kind of really powerful guard-break, like Ein's in DOA3? I just never really saw the point in this move considering how slow it is compared to his other knockback-moves. (It probably shouldn't be a guard break if it's used as the ender of the string, though.)

Finally, please just don't ever implenent the DOA4/5 system of "closer to stun treshold = closer to max launch height" because it's just the worst. But speaking of DOA4, I actually would like to see ground bounces implemented. That was one thing I actually did like about DOA4.

And that's it from me. Really excited to see someone do a project like this, keep up the good work.

 

[usagiZ]

I always thought a hybrid wall slam would be nice for DOA. I don't know how the DOA3 one measures up like this but my idea was:
[TakedaZX's idea]
Wall combos in DOA3 just gave you juggles for days, no? Is that how they worked?

This is how DOA3.1 wall crumple worked
...at least I'm pretty sure it is. It's been a while since I've played it. I mostly play 2U now, and occasionally, DOA4 (the online updated version).

@Gultigargar
Thanks for the support!

ZACK - Fair suggestions
BASS - It might be possible. @Mr. Wah what do you think? Your Avi is Bass, so I'm assuming the love doesn't end.
TENGU -Thanks for this! Those are great suggestions. Tengu needs some love.
He needs the most balancing. I'd like for him to actually be playable, as opposed to being the "OP-boss-character-I-get-because-arbitrary-reward-system".

I would think that, had Tengu made it into DOA3, he'd have tons of special on-guard properties. He had the only(?) frame advantage attack in DOA2U...I think.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Simulating some strings from 4 is a great idea, if it makes sense to add them. * in my opinion
This kind of thing was done for Kasumi's new string. It's supposed to sort of emulate her DOA4 , with different frames and properties, of course. It's much slower and has more recovery frames.
This kind of thing would be the only thing inspired by 4 -- other than ground bouncing, if we agree that ground bouncing should be used.
Ground Bouncing was, at the time, a beta mechanic in DOA3. The standard ground bounce is only high enough to ensure one extra hit. That was fine for 3, but it wasn't fully developed.
Currently, the standard ground bounce would only be useful for those that had it in 3.1.
I was thinking the standard ground bounce should lift opponents slightly higher. Then that could be used as the universal ground bounce height *on counter hit*.
Characters would slam the opponent down like in DOA2 on normal hit, but bounce the opponent on counter hit.
Is this an OK ground bounce mechanic?
1. Should new ground bounce be implemented
2. Should it keep its 3.1 properties or
3. Should ground bounce be left out?

 

[Matt Ponton]

My avatar is my head on Bass' body.

And yes, that's how DOA3's worked, you get one free hit or you could play the stun game again, just if you caused a knockback again then it was a sit-down slump instead of the wall crumple.

Can't comment on the ground bounce mechanic.

And for the record, the reason I push for it being a 3.1 modification is because that game is the only in the series that didn't have an online mode, and would like that option to be present in some form.

Second, the reason @grap3fruitman and I were asking if you had a tool that was helping you with modification was because there was a tool that was being used to make it easier to make changes in the DOA4 and another DOA project modification so you don't have to manually modify the hex on each thing. Once you figure out where the patterns are and what certain values mean it makes it more user friendly I imagine.

 

[usagiZ]

My avatar is my head on Bass' body.

Oh... lol
It would be nice to have a neat, organized GUI to look at -- as opposed to hypothetically staring at thousands of bytes of hex data for literal years.
But, no, tools have not been used, other than a random hex editor. To be honest, I don't even know why changing things does what it does.

I agree, to an extent. It should be in the direction of 3.1, but like previously mentioned, it's probably not possible to "100%" it, unless the developers do it themselves. The closest it will probably get, even If strictly 3.1 mechanics were used, would be 80-85%.

 

[TakedaZX]

The thing is though from what I've seen, players still get wombo combos off of one wall splat in DOA3. (Ex. Hayate 9PP W! PP2KP, PP6PK

 

[usagiZ]

Yes, people can get massive, guaranteed combos off of a wall crumple, but they have to launch immediately after W! because only the first hit after W! is guaranteed

If you stun the opponent after a wall crumple, they can hold out of the stun to avoid more damage.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

All these character specific changes from the original game... are we trying to create a fanmade Dead or Alive Rainbow Edition?

imo, make 99% official game iterations (like DOA3.1) or GTFO.

 

[usagiZ]

All these character specific changes from the original game... are we trying to create a fanmade Dead or Alive Rainbow Edition?

No. We're not.

imo, make 99% official game iterations (like DOA3.1) or GTFO.

I understand that you feel that way, but I'm not trying to offend anyone with what's being done, and quite a few people seem genuinely interested and supportive. Like with most fan-made alterations to games, it's done with admiration - and it's just for fun.
In reality, none of this project needs to be done, because some lovely *dusty* official copies of DOA2-4 are just sitting here... 5's hiding around here somewhere. >_>

But as a response to your "make 99% official iterations":
This will never be 99% official. It will never be 1% official -- because It's not an official update by the developers. It's a gameplay-patch made by a fan, and not much is changing at all... Really.

The engine is the same, the fighters are the same, everything being used already exists or has existed at one point in the time between DOA1 and DOA3. There's a few "new", unofficial, combo strings, but everything else is the same. Frame data is being used from 3.1, though it's hard to match everything 100%. Most mechanical changes are to mimic or simulate 3.1, and aren't actual changes to the mechanics, they just behave like they are.

I'm not a hardcore player, I would probably still like a DOA game if the gameplay was "gimped" *ahem* @grap3fruitman #DOA4XBLupdate

The reason I'm asking for feedback here, is to make sure I don't add or remove anything or do anything else that doesn't "need" to be changed or done -- like arbitrarily removing slope-advantage juggles. Oops.

I know I don't need to say this, because it's obvious, but if you are really that against everything that this fan-project is about, you don't have to play it if it ever sees 100% completion -- but I still genuinely welcome you to play-test it if/when it is finally done.

If there are issues after the first build is done, we can discuss them -- if people even care about this silly little fan-patch of a legacy DOA game by then.

If you have something to contribute, like some changes you'd like to see, or character specific flaws, and how they could be balanced, I'd love to hear about them.
Like when you mentioned Dragon Kick being blockable. That's something that can be easily fixed, and would be a helpful suggestion in making sure things don't get totally screwed up in the midst of all the minor changes.

 

[Gultigargar]

If it's not too much work, I'd suggest making two different builds: A "Version One" that's as close to DOA2U/DOA3 as possible while "Version Two" has the more "experimental" features, like new strings, hit/guard properties, ground/wall bounces, etc.

I think a lot of people (myself included, I guess) really like the old games as they are and only want to see a few minor tweaks, which is why most of the lists of wanted changes are so small.

But on the other hand, I can definitely see where you're coming from; it seems like such a shame to have these almost endless modding possibilities and then not really take advantage of any of it.

I think making these two separate versions could lead to Version Two being a sort of experimental playground where you might find a lot of stuff that doesn't necessarily work, but every once in a while you'd run into something cool that just works really well or fits a character's play-style perfectly. That's the point where you could consider/discuss transferring some of those changes over to Version One.

That's basically the solution I think would please everyone the most.

 

[usagiZ]

If it's not too much work, I'd suggest making two different builds: A "Version One" that's as close to DOA2U/DOA3 as possible while "Version Two" has the more "experimental" features, like new strings, hit/guard properties, ground/wall bounces, etc...

Major Edit ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Version1, Version2 idea is where this will be going... If anyone's still interested.
It's a great suggestion, and I'm already working on it.

Version1 will be the one dedicated to being as close to 3.1 as possible, using the 2U engine.
All changes demonstrated in the video are gone.
There will be no experimental edits - which means:
1. No DOA3 attacks - unless anyone can explain how they'd be useful.
2. Guard Break/Guard Crush attacks will be converted to Frame Advantage attacks, as that feature already exists in 2U.
3. No wall crumple
4. Basically any other 3.1 feature that doesn't already exist in 2U will not be happening.
5. Simulating FSD from 3.1 hasn't been explored enough, so that's not going to happen.

The only things that will change are frame data, damage, and some move properties* -- using 3.1 data as a template. *There are some properties from 3.1 that don't actually exist in 2U.
Since it won't be vastly different from 2U, I probably won't ask for many suggestions or input.
I can't help but think Version1 will be extremely vanilla, but I'm starting to think that's what people want.

 

[Tenryuga]

Make Kasumi's 2P neutral on hit and Eins 2P +1 on hit. Also make Kasumi slightly safer but not so safe she cant be punished.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Kasumi has always been the fastest character, and typically has the most unobvious string delay of the cast. That's why she's so unsafe is because her game is focused on the string delay, free cancel, and searching for stun via the pokes. The counter-balance to that is the opponent can throw punish if they realize she has free cancelled - which is just guessing because she doesn't have animation tells to say.

 

[usagiZ]

I agree that Kasumi has to be unsafe for how fast she is. It's a fair trade-off. I don't know how the 2P change would affect Ein, though. I assume it wouldn't change much. D:

Edit ~
I want to thank everyone who's been suggesting changes, or even just replying. It's keeping me motivated.

 

[TakedaZX]

He'll play just as he does now in DOA5U.