DOA5α Hold Frame Data

[DrDogg]

And I'm just being realistic when I'm saying holds in stun are here to stay, and if you don't like it then I recommend that you jump ship and play something else because Doa5 won't be the game for you (most likely).

I've stated many times that I will not be playing DOA5 if it doesn't take a far enough step in the right direction.

There's no point in argumenting about it back and forth because nobody here has the authority to get shit done.

You should probably do some homework before making that kind of statement.

If you want to keep hoping then that's up to you...

I'm not "hoping" for anything. I'm stating what the problem is and the fact that it needs to be addressed. If it gets changed, we have the potential for a tournament scene and I will play the game. If it doesn't get changed, then we have no chance at a tournament scene and I won't play. It's very straightforward.

However new systems does not equal to better systems, just like how SC5's new systems aren't better than how it used to be where good movement was more rewarding and the GI system was more fun and intuitive to use than the just guard system will ever be. SC5 is a pretty good game, and it's more balanced than what sc4 was. But that doesn't change that the system is less fun to use than it was in sc2/3/4

I didn't play SC2 or SC3 at a competitive level (I didn't play SC3 at all), but I prefer SC5 to SC4.

 

[synce]

I don't think there's a problem and I don't understand why you're so obsessed with tournaments. DOA3 and 4 sold a million copies without a tournament scene, so Team Ninja doesn't have to kowtow to a vocal minority. They're already alienating fans by toning down the T&A (who are probably flocking to Soulboobibur 5), if they radically alter the series trademark rock-paper-scissors gameplay on top of that it's going to sell as well as NG3.

 

[Raansu]

I don't think there's a problem and I don't understand why you're so obsessed with tournaments. DOA3 and 4 sold a million copies without a tournament scene, so Team Ninja doesn't have to kowtow to a vocal minority. They're already alienating fans by toning down the T&A (who are probably flocking to Soulboobibur 5), if they radically alter the series trademark rock-paper-scissors gameplay on top of that it's going to sell as well as NG3.

Casuals buy the games and play them for a week, tournament players play the games for years and actually keep the game alive. We are far from being the minority. If this game is like DoA4 in any way shape or form, it will die, simple as that. DoA4 was a terrible game, the system NEEDS to be radically altered.

And if you think the new art direction is "alienating" the fans...well, you're a dumbass as pretty much everyone, casual and hardcore, like the new direction, so no one is being alienated there aside from the few weirdos that liked the doll look of the series.

 

[grap3fruitman]

DOA3 and 4 sold a million copies without a tournament scene, so Team Ninja doesn't have to kowtow to a vocal minority.

DOAD isn't even at a measly quarter million: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/45695/dead-or-alive-dimensions/
DOA4 didn't even break half a million: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/479/dead-or-alive-4/
DOAU is at half a mil: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/3060/dead-or-alive-ultimate/
DOA3 is at 1.77 mil: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/478/dead-or-alive-3/

 

[Awesmic]

Casuals buy the games and play them for a week, tournament players play the games for years and actually keep the game alive. We are far from being the minority. If this game is like DoA4 in any way shape or form, it will die, simple as that. DoA4 was a terrible game, the system NEEDS to be radically altered.

And if you think the new art direction is "alienating" the fans...well, you're a dumbass as pretty much everyone, casual and hardcore, like the new direction, so no one is being alienated there aside from the few weirdos that liked the doll look of the series.

Calm that shit down, dude... he ain't a dumbass. Probably shocked at the dramatic change and a little doubtful considering the feedback of Hitomi's character model, which I would say is reasonable... but far from a dumbass.

And you wanna talk "weirdos"? 'Cause I've seen far less subtle reactions than this... in fact, you and I have both seen it on Facebook. Synce ain't shit compared to that.

 

[x Sypher x]

DOA3 is at 1.77 mil: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/478/dead-or-alive-3/

And it's all thanks to this:

Props to genius advertisement. I'm kidding of course lol.

 

[MASTER]

DOAD isn't even at a measly quarter million: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/45695/dead-or-alive-dimensions/
DOA4 didn't even break half a million: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/479/dead-or-alive-4/
DOAU is at half a mil: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/3060/dead-or-alive-ultimate/
DOA3 is at 1.77 mil: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/478/dead-or-alive-3/

Nintendo didn't do well during the launch of the 3ds system which equaled in DOAD and every game at that time doing bad (look at mario land, its 5Mil on the same system during a separate time). Tsunami also added to the cause on top of the game having to be delayed.
DOA4 should be over 1Mil, I was told that this was one of the requirements to become a Platinum hit game. I could have sworn even Tecmo said it was (1.2ishM i believe i heard somewhere) but I'll ask again.
DOA2U being at half a Mil is pretty good given that its the same game for probably the 5th or 6th time now but I heard in Japan its on the Platinum collection list (not sure if the requirements are different over seas). I wonder how many games actually sold throughout the whole life of that particular game (DOA2, Probably a lot is my guess)
DOA3 Is another platinum hit game and sounds about right in that number.

This might be why Synce thinks that DOA3 and DOA4 have sold Millions I believe it has too but like i said i will ask. Also he still brings up a valid point in the sense that these games are selling millions of copies regardless of tournament scene. To me its more like if millions of people bought this game how is there NO huge tournament scene? This question can be asked for all the games dealing with the DOA series to be honest but like a said an interesting point.

MASTER

 

[MrMoon360]

I was told that this was one of the requirements to become a Platinum hit game.

I too was once told a million copies made a game platinum, but it turns out that the Xbox Platinum title is attained by selling 400,000 units in the first 9 months.

 

[grap3fruitman]

To me its more like if millions of people bought this game how is there NO huge tournament scene?

...

 

[Rikuto]

Nintendo didn't do well during the launch of the 3ds system which equaled in DOAD and every game at that time doing bad (look at mario land, its 5Mil on the same system during a separate time). Tsunami also added to the cause on top of the game having to be delayed.
DOA4 should be over 1Mil, I was told that this was one of the requirements to become a Platinum hit game. I could have sworn even Tecmo said it was (1.2ishM i believe i heard somewhere) but I'll ask again.
DOA2U being at half a Mil is pretty good given that its the same game for probably the 5th or 6th time now but I heard in Japan its on the Platinum collection list (not sure if the requirements are different over seas). I wonder how many games actually sold throughout the whole life of that particular game (DOA2, Probably a lot is my guess)
DOA3 Is another platinum hit game and sounds about right in that number.

This might be why Synce thinks that DOA3 and DOA4 have sold Millions I believe it has too but like i said i will ask. Also he still brings up a valid point in the sense that these games are selling millions of copies regardless of tournament scene. To me its more like if millions of people bought this game how is there NO huge tournament scene? This question can be asked for all the games dealing with the DOA series to be honest but like a said an interesting point.

MASTER

Few things.

First, Casuals are the bulk and don't do tournaments.

Second, word of mouth and history are the two prime selling points for a video game, regardless of how good something actually is.

The dark era of MK games also sold very well, but the had no tournament scene either because they were just so bad as actual games outside of the dark humor and shock value. Casuals are always the bulk sales, hardcore/tournament players however make the sustained sales because they are continually recommending the game and pretty much advertising it, and for things like DLC they are actually sticking with the game long enough to consider buying it. There is also the thought that most casuals originally buy games in accordance to what their hardcore friends recommend is good, since they are in fact casual and many can't bother doing research themselves. After they make that first plunge it becomes easier for them to make their own decisions.

It can therefore be argued that the hardcore are the slim minority, but also directly responsible for the growth of the majority sales in a regularly updated franchise.

So why does DOA make decent sales but have no tournament scene? At some point it was appealing enough that some hardcore fighters were recommending it, but moreso, and to be painfully blunt, really obnoxious Weeboo's have had a much stronger hand in recommending it.

They aren't going to tournaments, and the game just isn't appealing enough to hardcore players to bother.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The numbers grap3 posted are for the United States. It doesn't count Asia or Europe in those number. Europe I could see selling just about the same as the US. For example, DOA3 I heard sold 3 or 5 million globally, with Europe I could believe it hitting the 3 million mark when combined with the 1.7m in America, with maybe another 500,000 for the rest of the world.

Last I checked, the NPD report listed 420 or 480,000 for DOA4. Most of its sales these days are for used copies so you won't really see those sales increase at all, especially since last I checked DOA4 isn't being manufactured anymore.

I forget the actual numbers but when I last checked the NPD report which was around March or May of last year, DOA4 was listed okay. Tekken 6 was about the same numbers of sales on the 360 but had about 1.25x the amount on the PlayStation 3. Street Fighter 4 vanilla did like 5-600,000 including its limited edition per system. Virtua Fighter 5 only had like 30 or 40,000 sales total for Xbox 360, around 80,000 for PlayStation 3. Super Street Fighter IV (AE wasn't out yet) was at like 200,000 - a 'huge' drop off the 1mil but probably just shows the hardcore tourney percentage really. AE coudn't really be counted as it was dominantly an online purchase from those hardcore than the retail version.

That's what I remember though, so my math could be a bit off but the pictures and rankings still are vivid.

 

[DrDogg]

I don't think there's a problem and I don't understand why you're so obsessed with tournaments.

I don't play fighting games casually. It simply doesn't appeal to me. I play them to participate in tournaments. If DOA5 has no tournament scene, then I have no reason to play it. I really like VF, but because VF5 had no tournament scene, I stopped playing after a few months. The only reason I played DOA4 as long as I did was because of WCG and CGS. Had those two events not included DOA4, I doubt I would've played it for more than a few months.

With Tekken Tag 2 and VF5: FS releasing within a month of DOA5, if the game doesn't make the proper steps forward, I will have no reason to play it. I'm sure it will still sell decently (although I think it would sell better with a delay -- too close to TTT2), but this site is about the tournament scene. If you want to talk about the game casually, it'd be best to head to DOA World or some other less competitive site.

Nintendo didn't do well during the launch of the 3ds system which equaled in DOAD and every game at that time doing bad (look at mario land, its 5Mil on the same system during a separate time). Tsunami also added to the cause on top of the game having to be delayed.

Sluggish sales of the 3DS are one reason why DOAD did poorly, but I don't think it was the main reason. It released after the 3DS version of SF4. Fighters on handheld consoles aren't generally the best selling games, plus the fact that DOAD had to compete with the non-fighters available in the launch window, plus the fact that it was competing directly with SF4.

IMO, it never really had much of a chance to sell well.

Also he still brings up a valid point in the sense that these games are selling millions of copies regardless of tournament scene. To me its more like if millions of people bought this game how is there NO huge tournament scene? This question can be asked for all the games dealing with the DOA series to be honest but like a said an interesting point.

Casuals make up the primary sales figures, but only a fraction of that comprise the tournament scene. A game has to meet certain competitive requirements for this to happen. DOA does not meet any of them outside of the visual appeal, which is why you saw it in CGS.

This will not change with DOA5. So unless more of the gameplay requirements are met, I don't see DOA5 having a stronger tournament scene than any previous DOA... which is basically no tournament scene.

I forget the actual numbers but when I last checked the NPD report which was around March or May of last year, DOA4 was listed okay. Tekken 6 was about the same numbers of sales on the 360 but had about 1.25x the amount on the PlayStation 3. Street Fighter 4 vanilla did like 5-600,000 including its limited edition per system. Virtua Fighter 5 only had like 30 or 40,000 sales total for Xbox 360, around 80,000 for PlayStation 3. Super Street Fighter IV (AE wasn't out yet) was at like 200,000 - a 'huge' drop off the 1mil but probably just shows the hardcore tourney percentage really. AE coudn't really be counted as it was dominantly an online purchase from those hardcore than the retail version.

That's what I remember though, so my math could be a bit off but the pictures and rankings still are vivid.

DOA4 has sold over 1 million copies worldwide. I'm almost positive of that.

Here are the most recent SF and Marvel numbers, just released in Capcom's fiscal report. All of these are worldwide numbers:

Street Fighter IV – 3.1m
Marvel vs. Capcom 3 – 2.0m
Super Street Fighter IV – 1.8m
Street Fighter x Tekken – 1.4m
Super Street Fighter IV 3D – 1.1m
UMvC3 - ~600k

 

[Matt Ponton]

DOA4 has sold over 1 million copies worldwide. I'm almost positive of that.

Here are the most recent SF and Marvel numbers, just released in Capcom's fiscal report. All of these are worldwide numbers:

Street Fighter IV – 3.1m
Marvel vs. Capcom 3 – 2.0m
Super Street Fighter IV – 1.8m
Street Fighter x Tekken – 1.4m
Super Street Fighter IV 3D – 1.1m
UMvC3 - ~600k

Yup, seems about right with what you quoted from me.

 

[Skilletor]

In Virtua Fighter a person in stun is likely to struggle out of the stun and either block/evade/crouch under/crush your attack. Most of the stuns in that game don't lead to guaranteed damage, the best you're getting from most of them is a mixup situation.

In previous Soul Calibur games most of the stuns were shake'able so that you could either get out of them completely, or you could get out before any high damage move could hit you and the opponent could only get a guaranteed AA. Much like in VF if you get out of the stun you could block/crouch/sidestep/crush

In Tekken if you get stunned, depending on the stun you can either hold forward to escape it, or if it's a sit down stun you hold up/down to tech out of it. Most characters in tekken don't have moves with especially good crush properties, and sidestepping is not as instant as it is in VF/SC, therefor most characters only have the option of blocking high or low.

So it seems to me that if you're against stun systems turning into a mixup situation then you should be playing Tekken, but for some reason you're here whining about a change that's not going to happen, and you already know it's not going to happen. You're wasting your own time hoping for Doa5 turning into a whole new game.

In SC, if I hit a person they can't counter out of the hitstun.
In VF, if I hit a person they can't counter out of the hitstun.
In Tekken, if I hit a person they can't counter out of the hitstun.

In DoA, aside from very few moves, you can counter out of the hitstun.

In DoA nearly every move puts you into a stun from which you can counter.

 

[DriftSlave]

SFxTK did better then what I thought
Hopefully DOA5 sales well~

 

[DrDogg]

SFxTK did better then what I thought
Hopefully DOA5 sales well~

Keep in mind those are units sold from Capcom's perspective, which means they have been shipped to stores, but haven't necessarily left store shelves.

 

[DriftSlave]

uhhg when you put it that way....and all the used copies i see at gamestop....it's not a good look.

 

[Rikuto]

In other news, in regards to the actual topic of this thread and in an attempt to stray from further derailment...

How about making the recovery on all normal holds 21-25, and all expert holds 26-30?
I think this would make it a little bit easier to read your opponent and punish on reaction, while also adding more risk to holds.
The reason why I suggested more recovery frames for expert holds is because they do more damage or grant a certain advantage (character specific), and I believe the risk should be just as great as the reward you are seeking.

So maybe it could look something like this ---> 2/8/25 for normal holds and 4/6/30 for expert holds. These are just examples but you can probably see the logic behind these numbers. Normal holds will come out faster, have more active frames, and have a fair recovery. Since the damage output on them have now been nerfed I think this is fair. In the case of expert holds however, there is definitely more risk. It will come out slightly slower, have less active frames, and a larger recovery. I think this would give the player the incentive to learn how to use his expert holds wisely and time them well, otherwise he's fucking himself over.

Idk about parries so I won't touch that base. Let me know what you think.

You're a WITCH!

But yes, is basically what I would set things to.

 

[x Sypher x]

Lol thanks