DOA5 and Sexualization: Too Much?

[DestructionBomb]

Here's the thing and I can fully agree with this.

They can sell the DLCs. Why not? Let them. Most complaints come from within the package and the rehash that it brings. I also buy DLC.. as long as I can play the game and beat people up.

Gravure videos on the other hand.......they should of just sit down and create versions of the actual characters training or something. You want Sexy? Have Leifang kicking a tree in a bikini...at least she's putting an effort to it.

 

[Argentus]

Here's the thing and I can fully agree with this.

They can sell the DLCs. Why not? Let them. Most complaints come from within the package and the rehash that it brings. I also buy DLC.. as long as I can play the game and beat people up.

Gravure videos on the other hand.......they should of just sit down and create versions of the actual characters training or something. You want Sexy? Have Leifang kicking a tree in a bikini...as least she's putting an effort to it.

*pictures leifang on the ground clutching her busted ankle after trying to kick a tree*

Yeah, I'd buy that.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Side note. Why is that called the Hawkeye initiative? I remember the outrage at the cover art of Spider-Woman in a supposedly erotic arched back crawling position, and critics complained how its sexist and you'd never see a male in a pose like that...only for everyone to point out that she was simply mimicking Spider-MANS usual cover art poses, which brought the whole argument crumbling down and made the critics look like idiots lol.

I believe it's called the Hawkeye Initiative because Hawkeye is the main superhero drawn to emulate the poses. And you hit the nail straight on the head on why that it's bullshit from start to finish:

A man does a ridiculous pose, it's okay. Same woman does the pose, it's suddenly sexist and too risque' despite the man was never really ridiculed for it beforehand.

It reminds me of a story in another forum:

I remember arguing with someone on why Urien from Street Fighter Third Strike who looks like this:

Spoiler

Can't be seen as sexy as Elena from the exact same game:

Spoiler

He told me virtually is that it's because men with bodies like Urien's means something(like the saying "Built like an Adonis") thus they can't be seen as sexy unlike Elena.
What that virtually tells me is that buff men can't be sexy at all...which makes no sense.

But on this topic as a whole, I just can't stop shaking my head in disbelief.

"DOA is the most sexual fighter!"

*looks at DOA which has virtually no sexual content aside from optional dlc packs*

*looks over at other fighters which feature gag boobs as primary character traits, straight up sexual moaning noises and poses during fights, constant innuendos, at least one dominatrix with a whip, all female casts with every frame designed to see T&A, so on and so forth...*

I mean the gravure and omg modes aren't helping, but they seem more like tongue in cheek mockeries of sexualization, parodies, than legitimately trying to be sexy.


It reminds me of someone getting mad and claiming racism at Borderlands 2 because they claimed Tiny Tina was using "Verbal Blackface". I'm just going "But you are totally fine with BRICK, who is a far worse offender of that?"

Like...the argument could have been valid if it weren't aimed at the one in the group who barely making the offense at all, when there's far worse right next to them.

I agree with all of this, especially the overreaction to the Gravure and OMG modes. The Gag boobs is a DOA staple, but it's not like any other female character in any other fighting game doesn't have them and unlike DOA's, most of them are played dead straight or really have no true personalities past that(KOF gets that honor sadly). Then you have Soul Calibur...I SERIOUSLY hate it when people tell me DOA is ridiculous when that game has been getting worse and worse until SCV and even that barely matters when you have a character like Elysium walking around.

I still heavily believe it's nothing more than a massive smoke screen so that people don't choose to play it because they suck at it or it's massive level ignorance by not choosing to play it.

 

[David Gregg]

Gravure videos on the other hand.......they should of just sit down and create versions of the actual characters training or something. You want Sexy? Have Leifang kicking a tree in a bikini...as least she's putting an effort to it.

This is a great idea actually and they've done it before in the Xtreme games so I don't see why they couldn't do it now. Here's Helena for example (@7:49)

Still wouldn't actually buy them though. XD

 

[Malfury]

@Intelligent Alpha @oMASTER LEGENDo I dunno what you're talking about but it doesn't even seem tangentially related to anything. Cut it out.

Alright, I guess I can throw my hat in the ring now. Be forewarned. This is just me venting off the cuff so may contain salty language.

Over time, I've seen a lot of things coming out of Japan. And the more I payed attention, the more "shovelware" I noticed. It just seems like all of these manga, anime, visual novels, etc. just recycle the same characters repeatedly while changing the story slightly. And every anime season, there's, like, 12 harem anime. All with the same busty (and one flat-chested), doe-eyed, tropes fawning over the same lame, wish-fulfillment protagonist who doesn't even matter because the focus is all on how much everyone's boobs jiggle and when the next hot springs episode is. Over and over and over and over and over and over. So, yeah, that stuff doesn't interest me. But, it just keeps happening and people keep buying it. Oh, look, panty shots! Yay!

Liking sexy things is fine. But for me, I need more than that. People never try to mix it up and create interesting characters anymore. I don't need wish-fulfillment fantasy. I want interesting characters. I want things that are at least well written. But, it's like the majority of people don't care about that. As long as it has sexy, moe, waifu bullshit with an assortment of huge tits with different hair colors in it to make figures of and put on the half-naked (or naked) dakimakura and someone gets groped and they can never get married now. Over and over and over. And it's hella shallow. But, all of these companies just seem to push it out there like that's what they have to put out. I'm not even convinced that they want to anymore. It's just how it industry goes as a routine or something. It feels like they're not even trying anymore. And I think it's because the public isn't even making them try. Lowest common denominator, right?

Now, taking it back for a sec, I came upon DOA1 back in 98 or so for the PSX when my neighbor brought it over. Yeah, I looked at the boobs and were like lolwtflewd, but it had a cool atmosphere. The music was cool, the backgrounds were cool, the danger zones were cool, and I enjoyed the various characters (all of them). I geeked the fuck out over some ninja teleporting in a whirlwind of leaves and made sure I did an Izuna drop with Hayabusa at least once a round. And it was game over when I unlocked Ayane. She was, like, sparkly and shit. And she had this crazy spinning style and this rocking orchestral theme. This game oozed coolness for me. It had bikinis and stuff, but that was cool, too.

The stages got cooler in 2 and I thought that the costumes were really cool looking. Some of them could be considered sexy, but they all seemed to embody the characters or were just cool concepts. I really wondered why there were only images of the girls in swimsuits in the CG gallery. That actually made me angry. It's not that I disliked the swimsuits. I just thought it was odd to only have that.

DOA3 just seemed to be just badass. Yeah, the sexiness was still there, but all of the characters just seemed really cool and varied. And then DOAX happened and well... I could allow it as a side game. But, then look at what happened in DOA4. Leifang in DOA3 was all protecting kids from thugs and then in DOA4 it's like, "Oh, my boobs are so big that my tight shirt tore open. Oh, goodness me. Please don't grope me, sir." In DOA3, Kasumi's running for her life and sad that she can't go home and in DOA4, it's all "I'mma topless, pop singing mermaid! Wheeee!!" And Hitomi's ending and...

Spoiler: Uhhhh...

At this point, I'm older and not as easily impressed. Things like Christie's ending didn't bother me, though. That's Christie being Christie. But, the most of the other stuff just seemed dumb. It had nothing to do with anything. It was just pandering for no reason. I want a reason. DOAX2 happened and that was just...ew. This is not cool anymore, guys.

So, DOA5 happens after all that time and they were like "Yeah, things got kind of ridiculous" and I'm like "Yes, they did. Glad you realized." I didn't take "toning it down" to mean "removing all sex appeal". Part of the coolness was it being sexy. Ninjas and explosions and flying cars and I'm like, "This is awesome. DOA is about to smack people in the face!" And then the Ayane vs. Hitomi video came out and suddenly fans were apparently like, "Why aren't their boobs bigger? MAKE THEM BIGGER DAMN IT! MOAR JIGGLE!!" And, I'm just like, "Are you plebes serious? Do you not see this hotness going on in front of your face? There are other things that make the game cool, you know? Jiggly boobs are only a small piece of the puzzle."

So, then they released the pre-order bikini pack. And, I said, fine. One set isn't gonna hurt anybody. And then, people found the super secret bikinis for Tina, Christie, and Lisa. And, I was like, sure. Work for your fanservice. And then the DLC started. And, then I was like, wait...something's wrong. And then it just kept getting worse. Ultimate came out, and they started making sure that you got good looks at the girls being vulnerable and panting in their character profile pictures. No. Bullshit. Being sexy is fine. Dumb pandering I can do without. But, it just didn't stop. The story mode was fine and took itself seriously. But, everything else surrounding the game became "Look at the hot, sweaty, women!" And then they were like, "We've got something that you've all been waiting for! GRAVURE VIDEOS!" Let's bring back Sixaxis jiggle!

Dafuq? And more bikinis, too. And it's never enough. People don't want anything more substantial than cheesecake. But, I'm gonna need something more substantial. What's the point in even having all these other features is all your going to promote is cheesecake? Yes, money is money. But, as game makers, you decide what type of game you want to create and how you want the game to be promoted. Sexy is more than just taking off your clothes. It's about attitude, too. Sometimes, subtlety goes a long way.

And now with maid outfits, nurses, etc. There's not even any personality in it anymore. Oh look, come to this fighting tournament. Oh, don't mind the fact that all of the girls are wearing towels.

What's the point? You're just mindless, waifu bullshit. Oh, look. A cute loli for no reason and no character development! Just like all the other shovelware. And people just throw all their money at it. Oh, look at how the softness engine makes the boobs look. I DON'T FUCKING CARE. And I kind of hate that so many people apparently are placated by it. Oh, if you want the full boob experience, you DEFINITELY need to go next-gen. Give me a break. If you want to just make a Japan only H-dating game filled with busty women and your blank, male protagonist, then do it. But, you decided to release a fighting game, worldwide. It should be about more than boobs. And you can't be neglecting half of your in-game fighters along the way. I want interesting characters, damn it. I want something deeper and less shallow. I don't need wish fulfillment.

That's enough of that. I'll post a more coherent, shorter, and technical post next time.

Umm... it's fairly obvious why Japanese companies are doing this. In my opinion, sexualization isn't wholly the blame. They are targeting and capitalizing on a niche. Anime is big enough, sure, but a good portion of Japanese people don't give a shit about anime and video games and a good amount of them think it's disgusting and companies know this. Have you seen those guys who buy ¥300,000 worth of CD's and merchandise just to get enough tickets to shake some little girl's hand? It's otakus like those guys that are the real targets and make these guys money. So that's why anime/video games are easily polluted with all the copy/pasta, manufactured crap. Cause it's easy money and they are feeding these plebeian and unsophisticated guys who never leave their home's curiosity.

Also, do you play DOA? It's good. It has alot of awesome mechanics, interesting fighting styles, and a great FGC.

 

[werewolfgold]

Oh, gawd. Where'd all these posts come from?

Yes, the game is too sexualized. It's almost impossible to convince someone to take the thing seriously.

Just to keep the convo going, where do you think they crossed the line was?

I would like to request a lock. Thanks.

Don't you be trying to shut down my party, dawg. Can't you see I'm doing divine works, here?

This raises a different question now: If the DOA males were given the same amount of sexualization as the females, would the issue be as big as the community and others make it? A lot of time, people complain the males don't get enough attention, but to be honest, I do not find many of the male characters in DOA interesting (Brad Wong and Hayabusa aside). In terms of sexualization, some of the guys already fill that role: Eliot is the pretty boy, Ein has some sexy outfits, Bayman with his strong masculine features, Jann Lee showing off his body, etc. It isn't really fair to say the guys haven't received the same treatment, because they kind of have. Hell, there's an MMA pack for the guys, and most of them are shirtless and a lot of the costumes for the guys have them shirtless or in sexy, half naked costumes. Even in the recent Policeman DLC, Bass and Rig look like male strippers in their uniforms. Sure, the guys may not have as much costumes as the females, but it's always been that way for the males.

Now, there's a difference between being "attractive" and being "sexualized". Ein could perhaps be said to be sexualized through some of his outfits. I would say characters like Eliot and Bayman are just kind of there, though. They do seem to be playing up Rig's sexiness a lot recently, but that may partly be through fan-submitted costumes. I think what it comes down to is to what extent does it seem like they are going out of their way to put the sexiness in your face as opposed to other aspects of the character. E.G., sixaxis boob movement. That serves literally no purpose but to titillate. For me, it seemed like something way over-the-top even when it was introduced in NGS2.

Being shirtless can end up not being sexualization depending on how it's played. I think I remember some art somewhere showing how a topless female barbarian can not be sexy. It depends on posing and other factors surrounding it. I'll find the link when I'm not at work.

As another example, I don't think many would claim that Mila's default costume or the sweatpants outfit with the towel are sexualized, despite her only wearing a sports bra up top.

The MMA outfits could be said to be sexualized, but that pack only likely happened because of complaints in the first place. I reeeeally don't think that would've happened on its own. Maybe, it would have but...I can't see it. But, if you're asking me are they treated the same, it doesn't seem like it. They weren't exactly releasing giant sexy dude tapestries (not even in more limited quantities). We can't watch the guys hang out at the beach. When all the dudes start getting Ein's succubus outfit 4 times over, then maybe I'd agree that the sexualization levels were somewhat on par. But, I don't think it is at the moment.

If they really wanna do sexy, I personally would rather it be even handed. It would still probably keep the game in the "this is all far too ridiculous" category. But it wouldn't also have that "men = characters while women = tools for dudes to fap to" thing hanging over it in addition to that.

People love to complain about women because in some of the weirdest case of possible sexism I know of, men can't be sexy enough to pose a problem like females can. I really can't get this logic as I know there's someone whose heard of the Hawkeye Initiative where they make the male superheroes pose the same way the females do in an ATTEMPT to show how ridiculous the female poses are...but they miss the point in that males and females are sexy for different reasons.

I think the larger point is the extent to which artists will go out of their way to present certain female assets to the viewer, to the point of snapping them in half. The claim that males and females are sexy for different reasons doesn't matter if the poses are ridiculous no matter what.

I'll direct you to that barbarian drawing I came across later. Men can be intimidating half-naked, or they can be sexy half-naked. The same can go for women. The viewer does come into play, but how it is presented in the first place does perhaps even more.

A Man is as skimpy in a speedo as a woman is in bra and panties, yet people act more outraged at the female than the male because only WOMEN can be sexy skimpy and handsome isn't on the same level as sexy apparently.

I don't think this is always true. There seemed to be a pretty huge dustup just at the mere existence of that "Free!" swim club anime.

Camera cuts and focus can play a huge role as to whether something is supposed to be blatantly "sexy" pandering as opposed to maybe just the viewer imposing feelings of attraction.

I mean the gravure and omg modes aren't helping, but they seem more like tongue in cheek mockeries of sexualization, parodies, than legitimately trying to be sexy.

...I kind of doubt they are. lol

*pictures leifang on the ground clutching her busted ankle after trying to kick a tree*

Yeah, I'd buy that.

Leifang broke a boulder with her palm in DOA2. I think she can at least manage to kick a tree in a way that doesn't break her ankle. lol

A man does a ridiculous pose, it's okay. Same woman does the pose, it's suddenly sexist and too risque' despite the man was never really ridiculed for it beforehand.

It reminds me of a story in another forum:

I remember arguing with someone on why Urien from Street Fighter Third Strike who looks like this:

Spoiler

Can't be seen as sexy as Elena from the exact same game:

Spoiler

He told me virtually is that it's because men with bodies like Urien's means something(like the saying "Built like an Adonis") thus they can't be seen as sexy unlike Elena.
What that virtually tells me is that buff men can't be sexy at all...which makes no sense.

They can be considered sexy, definitely. They are. What weirdo is telling you that Urien isn't sexy? lol

This is just me talking, but I don't view either Urien or Elena as sexualized. Nothing in game really lends itself to it. Maybe the problem is that the distinction isn't clear for some people. If every other official art piece was either of them crawling on a beach somewhere with a "come hither" face, then...I think that would be a different story.

I agree with all of this, especially the overreaction to the Gravure and OMG modes. The Gag boobs is a DOA staple, but it's not like any other female character in any other fighting game doesn't have them and unlike DOA's, most of them are played dead straight or really have no true personalities past that(KOF gets that honor sadly). Then you have Soul Calibur...I SERIOUSLY hate it when people tell me DOA is ridiculous when that game has been getting worse and worse until SCV and even that barely matters when you have a character like Elysium walking around.

I still heavily believe it's nothing more than a massive smoke screen so that people don't choose to play it because they suck at it or it's massive level ignorance by not choosing to play it.

I agree that other games have sexy elements, too. The question is what are they doing differently that allows them to "get away with it" so to speak when DOA doesn't. I think that maybe DOA is seen as "relying" upon it too much in order to sell product. I think SC got to that point as well, hence why they thought it was time to dial it back some. Yeah, DLC is optional, but if "sexy" this and "naughty" that is going to be what's in the public eye every couple of weeks, you may have a perception "problem" (if they see it that way).

But, for me, a sexy character here and there is whatever. Elysium can exist on her own without all of the red flags popping up. But, I'd rather not have that character or characters be all the company themselves focus on because it comes of as shallow. That's just me, though.

Umm... it's fairly obvious why Japanese companies are doing this. In my opinion, sexualization isn't wholly the blame. They are targeting and capitalizing on a niche. Anime is big enough, sure, but a good portion of Japanese people don't give a shit about anime and video games and a good amount of them think it's disgusting and companies know this. Have you seen those guys who buy ¥300,000 worth of CD's and merchandise just to get enough tickets to shake some little girl's hand? It's otakus like those guys that are the real targets and make these guys money. So that's why anime/video games are easily polluted with all the copy/pasta, manufactured crap. Cause it's easy money and they are feeding these plebeian and unsophisticated guys who never leave their home's curiosity.

This is kind of true. But, shows like Shingeki no Kyojin and Psycho-Pass are pretty popular and got that way by venturing out and trying to be interesting and not being waifu shovelware. I just hope that companies realize that there are some other ways to making your bottom line. But, I just sell shrimp out the back of a van, so they don't have to listen to me.

I get the novelty of having buxom women put in tantalizing situations. I don't see the appeal when multiplied by 924. Try harder. lol

Also, do you play DOA? It's good. It has alot of awesome mechanics, interesting fighting styles, and a great FGC.

I don't think I'd be spending all this time if I didn't play it. lol

But, if the community is to grow, these are some things that should be discussed, I think. No matter which "side of the fence" you're on.

 

[Malfury]

But, if the community is to grow, these are some things that should be discussed, I think. No matter which "side of the fence" you're on.

Well, I suppose I'm the only one who doesn't care about these issues in fighting games since I don't feed into it. Even with the DLC, I don't see the girls any differently then they were intended originally. I still think they are bad-ass despite the otaku merchandise.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

I think the larger point is the extent to which artists will go out of their way to present certain sexy poses. The claim that males and females are sexy for different reasons doesn't matter if the poses are ridiculous no matter what.

I'll direct you to that barbarian drawing I came across. Men can be intimidating half-naked, or they can be sexy half-naked. The same can go for women. The viewer does come into play, but how it is presented in the first place does perhaps even more.

But that's where the problem begins. A woman can't be half-naked and intimidating? A woman can't be beautiful and deadly? Because I've seen all of that happen and more. A man can be deadly, hot and still be primal in his own way, by saying a woman can't be either of those things without being beautiful somehow taking it out only makes it more obvious in that there's an overall issue with how people see females and being hot and beautiful override everything else.

I don't think this is always true. There seemed to be a pretty huge dustup just at the mere existence of that "Free!" swim club anime.

Camera cuts and focus can play a huge role as to whether something is supposed to be blatantly "sexy" pandering as opposed to maybe just the viewer imposing feelings of attraction.

Okay so let me ask you this:
Is it fair at all to act as if Bleach doesn't have hot and handsome men it in at almost all times or bitch the few times the hot females randomly show off skin?
Just because they cut away or PRETEND not to focus on it, it's still dead obvious that it's there to titillate the female audience. That's the same as saying that Devil May Cry doesn't have a female audience either, but none of that is taken into account only because of the fact that for alot of people, females being sexy is just too obvious.

They can be considered sexy, definitely. They are. What weirdo is telling you that Urien isn't sexy? lol

This is just me talking, but I don't view either Urien or Elena as sexualized. Nothing in game really lends itself to it. Maybe the problem is that the distinction easy clear for some people. If every other official art piece was either of them crawling on a beach somewhere with a "come hither" face, then...I think that would be a different story

Well, you just said that yourself. Elena can be seen as sexualized simply for the clothing she's wearing. That's virtually what the definition asks for:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexualize

I agree that other games have sexy elements, too. The question is what are they doing differently that allows them to "get away with it" so to speak when DOA doesn't. I think that maybe DOA is seen as "relying" upon it too much in order to sell product. I think SC got to that point as well, hence why they thought it was time to dial it back some. Yeah, DLC is optional, but if "sexy" this and "naughty" that is going to be what's in the public eye every couple of weeks, you may have a perception "problem" (if they see it that way).

Except the funny part is...they didn't.
Soul Calibur V only dialed it back as far as the typical beginner costumes. They still have ridiculous customization options which still allow you to make them as sexualized as you want them to.
It really doesn't help Lost Swords panders to the female sex to an even WORSE rate than DOA5U does(because atleast they are JUST costumes, LS costumes actually have stats to be good in the game itself). And besides that, you know how badly everyone cries about Marie Rose? Most of the characters in SCV is YOUNGER than she is, yet you can still customize them like if they was Ivy, Tira or Pyrrha(who is 18). That's not even MENTIONING the advertising...

Spoiler

Oh hey, one sexy male advertising...which is of Voldo, who I seriously doubt many see him as sexy to begin with...
Let's compare to Dead Or Alive 5's Advertisement...oh right, wasn't it "I'm a Fighter" while rarely showing it with sex? So yeah, that balancing...

But, for me, a sexy character here and there is whatever. But, I'd rather not have that character or characters be all the company themselves focus on because it comes of as shallow. That's just me, though.

I agree. But at the same time, I don't think DOA has hit that plateau yet, they are getting too close, but atleast they know they are reaching too far.
In comparison, Soul Calibur has fallen off the wagon so damn hard. So when DOA gets this bad:

On a daily basis, then I'll give you a call(P.S. I have no real issue with the costumes I put up, I have an issue because these are seriously the types they have you buy up to possibly NINETY DOLLARS FOR!)

 

[werewolfgold]

But that's where the problem begins. A woman can't be half-naked and intimidating? A woman can't be beautiful and deadly? Because I've seen all of that happen and more. A man can be deadly, hot and still be primal in his own way, by saying a woman can't be either of those things without being beautiful somehow taking it out only makes it more obvious in that there's an overall issue with how people see females and being hot and beautiful override everything else.

This is true. It doesn't seem fair that sexiness overrides everything else so much. I think that it is quite possible to be multiple things at once. However, I think there are degrees of pandering.

Psylocke is hot. She is also an interesting character with a deep backstory. Her existing as a sexy character is fine. Whatever artist pulling some weird BS to make sure that a 3/4 frontal view of both her boobs and her ass somehow happen at once may take some people out of the moment, though. lol

Okay so let me ask you this:
Is it fair at all to act as if Bleach doesn't have hot and handsome men it in at almost all times or bitch the few times the hot females randomly show off skin?

Okay, I haven't watched Bleach in over 5 years. But, once again, I would say that it depends on what goes on with the characters and how out of place it seems. Why do the females "randomly show off skin"? Does it make sense?

A male character being conventionally attractive doesn't equate to, say, a random scene where someone falls into a woman's boobs just because. That probably didn't happen in Bleach or maybe it did, I dunno. Just an example. I don't quite remember Bleach as being something that went anywhere that would be considered too far.

Just because they cut away or PRETEND not to focus on it, it's still dead obvious that it's there to titillate the female audience.

To whom? Are we still talking about Bleach?

That's the same as saying that Devil May Cry doesn't have a female audience either, but none of that is taken into account only because of the fact that for alot of people, females being sexy is just too obvious.

I think that we're at a point in history where maybe relying on females showing some skin is seen as the easy way out, maybe. So, people are extra hard on it when it happens.

I'm sure Dante from DMC has plenty of female fans. But, his sexiness doesn't quite come from just removing his clothes (I don't think). He had the shirtless jacket thing going on in DMC3, and new age Dante...doesn't exist. Let's go with that.

Naw, just playing, dude was totally naked at the beginning of his game. I'm pretty sure plenty of people were talking about that both positively and negatively, though. Likely precisely because it was stepping into territory that perhaps female characters had only been a part of in terms of pandering.

Honestly, I think that a lot of complaints will wane going forward if people just make sure to flesh out their characters in general.

Well, you just said that yourself. Elena can be seen as sexualized simply for the clothing she's wearing. That's virtually what the definition asks for:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexualize

That is a pretty cut and dry definition. I've always understood the term to be a little more than that. If I find a better term, I'll start using it.

But, for me, not wearing a lot--hell, even nudity--doesn't have to be "sexual". That's why I try to bring in surrounding context and how it's treated within the media itself, as well as how the creators are treating it.

Except the funny part is...they didn't.
Soul Calibur V only dialed it back as far as the typical beginner costumes. They still have ridiculous customization options which still allow you to make them as sexualized as you want them to.
It really doesn't help Lost Swords panders to the female sex to an even WORSE rate than DOA5U does(because atleast they are JUST costumes, LS costumes actually have stats to be good in the game itself). And besides that, you know how badly everyone cries about Marie Rose? Most of the characters in SCV is YOUNGER than she is, yet you can still customize them like if they was Ivy, Tira or Pyrrha(who is 18). That's not even MENTIONING the advertising...

Spoiler

Oh hey, one sexy male advertising...which is of Voldo, who I seriously doubt many see him as sexy to begin with...
Let's compare to Dead Or Alive 5's Advertisement...oh right, wasn't it "I'm a Fighter" while rarely showing it with sex? So yeah, that balancing...

Spoiler

Pyrrha is 20...

For me, the fact that literally everyone can be running around in pretty much whatever tarty thing the player can come up with via customization in SC makes it...slightly better? I dunno. At least more even handed.

I'm 90% sure the Voldo advertisement is a fan-made parody. You can tell because that's actually his SC4 outfit and the quality is slightly worse off. But, it did fool a lot of people when it happened back in the day.

But, yes, everyone did indeed give Namco shit for those Ivy advertisements. And you can go back a page or two in this thread to see how some people are reacting to the things they're pulling for Lost Souls. It's not just DOA catching heat.

As for the "I'm a Fighter" thing, I think that's just another point that makes people angry. Everything that TN is doing falls so far out of line with what they had set up in the beginning (the slogan came about before their "reversal" after all).

I agree. But at the same time, I don't think DOA has hit that plateau yet, they are getting too close, but atleast they know they are reaching too far.
In comparison, Soul Calibur has fallen off the wagon so damn hard. So when DOA gets this bad:

On a daily basis, then I'll give you a call(P.S. I have no real issue with the costumes I put up, I have an issue because these are seriously the types they have you buy up to possibly NINETY DOLLARS FOR!)

Dumbass pricing aside, I don't think costumes of that "pandering" caliber (heh heh) are on a daily basis and seems quite on par with what we got for Halloween costumes and other DLC for DOA5. So, given that, and what people are typically saying about SC nowadays, I dunno if I'd say that either one is being "unfairly" singled out.

But, back in the day, DOA marketed itself on the ladies right from the get-go, right on the game case when Soul Edge didn't. Hell, Taki's boobs even had jiggle physics way back then. But, they snuck that in under the radar so people don't treat it as bad. lol

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

This is true. It doesn't seem fair that sexiness overrides everything else so much. I think that it is quite possible to be multiple things at once. However, I think there are degrees of pandering.

Psylocke is hot. She is also an interesting character with a deep backstory. Her existing as a sexy character is fine. Whatever artist pulling some weird BS to make sure that a 3/4 frontal view of both her boobs and her ass somehow happen at once may take some people out of the moment, though. lol

I want to agree with that, but the issue is that it sadly does. There's a reason people bitch about how even Tekken and Soul Calibur indulging itself is suddenly too much even when there's absolutely no point to it even being the stupid reason of practicality(you have no idea how many times I hear people saying practicality as a reason when the very thing they are talking about is in a world/game where that wouldn't even matter an Nth as much as they say).

Psylocke is a badass, no doubts about that, but you think most people who aren't fans think about her like that? She's hot and I actually like that unitard she uses, but I LOVE the fact that she uses her psychic powers as pure constructs before The Professor and Jean added them to their repertoire, especially since she summons ninja weapons, giving her the badass psychic ninja vibe.

Okay, I haven't watched Bleach in over 5 years. But, once again, I would say that it depends on what goes on with the characters and how out of place it seems. Why do the females "randomly show off skin"? Does it make sense?

They don't honestly. Most of it fits the same reason of how Shonen usually has the males get slowly stripped while fighting, especially than main characters.

A male character being conventionally attractive doesn't equate to, say, a random scene where someone falls into a woman's boobs just because. That probably didn't happen in Bleach or maybe it did, I dunno. Just an example. I don't quite remember Bleach as being something that went anywhere that would be considered too far.

Nah, that's only something with Hitsugaya and Matsumoto and that's just a gag. There is only ONE blantant scene and outfit, and that was actually explained off:

To whom? Are we still talking about Bleach?

Meant that in general to any series that has hot males, yet they are usually ignored even when they obviously show lots of skin but when a female does it...

I think that we're at a point in history where maybe relying on females showing some skin is seen as the easy way out, maybe. So, people are extra hard on it when it happens.

I'm sure Dante from DMC has plenty of female fans. But, his sexiness doesn't quite come from just removing his clothes (I don't think). He had the shirtless jacket thing going on in DMC3, and new age Dante...doesn't exist. Let's go with that.

Naw, just playing, dude was totally naked at the beginning of his game. I'm pretty sure plenty of people were talking about that both positively and negatively, though. Likely precisely because it was stepping into territory that perhaps female characters had only been a part of in terms of pandering.

Honestly, I think that a lot of complaints will wane going forward if people just make sure to flesh out their characters in general.

BINGO, I want that to happen, but sadly, I'm not sure it's gonna happen with this landscape, especially in the West. As you state, too many people even SEE a woman being sexy is the easy way out in terms of marketing to the point some see it as a detriment BUT ONLY in gaming. Dante has a sizeable female fanbase, so does Vergil. Hell, Shirtless Vergil was added in DMC3:SE SPECIFICALLY for the female fanbase(same with Shirtless Dante, but that was in the original version too). And yeah, I won't talk about...Donte, and no one ever will.

That is a pretty cut and dry definition. I've always understood the term to be a little more than that. If I find a better term, I'll start using it.

But, for me, not wearing a lot--hell, even nudity--doesn't have to be "sexual". That's why I try to bring in surrounding context and how it's treated within the media itself, as well as how the creators are treating it.

I added that definition to show that specific purpose: People add their definition to stuff like sexualize and objectification, but they are both EXACTLY what they are, you either see something as sexy, an object or both. People see what they see as sexy and people see what they see as an object to the detriment of anything else. That's mainly why I find an issue with how people toss around the word without knowing what it means or the implication. As you stated, nudity ISN'T sexual by itself, just like how Elena's outfit BY ITSELF isn't sexual, but by the logic the person used for Urien, ELENA SHOULDN'T BE SEXUAL JUST BECAUSE OF HER OUTFIT. Her character traits doesn't even fit enough for her to be sexy by itself either, so it's forcibly making her sexy, thus sexualizing her.

Spoiler

Pyrrha is 20...

For me, the fact that literally everyone can be running around in pretty much whatever tarty thing the player can come up with via customization in SC makes it...slightly better? I dunno. At least more even handed.

I'm 90% sure the Voldo advertisement is a fan-made parody. You can tell because that's actually his SC4 outfit and the quality is slightly worse off. But, it did fool a lot of people when it happened back in the day.

But, yes, everyone did indeed give Namco shit for those Ivy advertisements. And you can go back a page or two in this thread to see how some people are reacting to the things they're pulling for Lost Souls. It's not just DOA catching heat.[/QUOTE]
I know, just pointing that out(The people giving Namco shit part, Pyrrha being 20 was a fuck up on my part, thought she was 18...don't know how the fuck that happened and the Voldo parody did catch me too).
While I'm not sure if SC4 had better advertisements or indulged just as badly, I mainly pointed out Lost Swords because there's a good chance that Lost Swords is the FINAL Soul Calibur game...think about that.

As for the "I'm a Fighter" thing, I think that's just another point that makes people angry. Everything that TN is doing falls so far out of line with what they had set up in the beginning (the slogan came about before their "reversal" after all).

And people can give them shit for that but funny thing? DOA gained more positive exposure than ever. Yeah, the fanservice is a breaking point for plenty(that and the counter system), but I have never seen so many people give it a chance than they have now(streamers, organizers, commenters). While there may be those who in this community believes it's dwindling, I believe that there can easily be new blood waiting to bloom if you wait. Hopefully DOA6 tones it down some and returns to the roots a bit by adding more casual outfits while keeping the skimpy outfits at a balanced minimum.

Dumbass pricing aside, I don't think costumes of that "pandering" caliber (heh heh) are on a daily basis and seems quite on par with what we got for Halloween costumes and other DLC for DOA5. So, given that, and what people are typically saying about SC nowadays, I dunno if I'd say that either one is being "unfairly" singled out.

But, back in the day, DOA marketed itself on the ladies right from the get-go, right on the game case when Soul Edge didn't. Hell, Taki's boobs even had jiggle physics way back then. But, they snuck that in under the radar so people don't treat it as bad. lol

Ehhhh...I could somewhat agree with that....but I really can't.
Just because Soul Edge didn't market it that way, it's still blatantly obvious especially around Soul Calibur 2. I believe there is a Sophitia!!(yes, it was spelled that way) outfit in either Soul Edge or Soul Calibur that gave Sophitia a Bikini outfit. Then pretty much every female suddenly gained more and more obvious fanservice to the point that it becomes ridiculous to act like you can hide behind the fighting game mechanics.
Atleast DOA was out in the open about that, I respect games and people who state what their intentions are rather than act like anything but. Lost Swords is making it dead obvious now, but that game has a SLEW more issues than just the fanservice.

 

[Tyaren]

DOA can imho be as sexy as it wants! TN can give them all the bikinis they want, let the girls frolic at the beach in gravure scenes, they can let their boobies bounce in OMG mode and the developers can publicly pant for Nyotengu's squishy tits at a convention (okay, that was kinda embarrassing for me too)...BUT they mustn't lose sight of the other stuff, that makes a fighting game or a game in general complete, polished and great.
Why are the girls modeled so beautifully and detailed, when the guys' bodies look like they are out of a PS2 game? Why are the textures of the few male DLC outfits so horrendous, when the female outfits look just fine? Why do they have to gender-bend an existing fan favorite male character? Why do the textures and antialiasing look in Last Round just as shitty as in DOA5, when they apparently had the time to rework the breast physics again? Why do they rather advertise tits, than talk about new/reworked game mechanics?
That is the problem! At least to me. Yes, girls are sexy, jiggly and showered with skimpy DLC in other fighters too, but the male cast and the rest of the game get's equal attention. They are not completely screwed over in favor of the sale of the female cast as they are in DOA, DOA5/DOA5+/DOA5U/DOA5LR to be precise. DOA didn't use to be like this. DOA1-DOA4 were sexy and over the top, but the rest of these games was polished as well. I don't see that polish anymore...just on shiny, bouncy tits...
That is why I, as a huge DOA fan since DOA2, just recently started complaining about DOA's sexualization too...
(I mean, there are fighting games, that are not as polished as a DOA game of course. But then they are generally not as polished and it isn't as if just the girls and their "assets" squeezed all the inspiration, time, effort and funding out of the rest of the game. XD)

 

[werewolfgold]

I want to agree with that, but the issue is that it sadly does. There's a reason people bitch about how even Tekken and Soul Calibur indulging itself is suddenly too much even when there's absolutely no point to it even being the stupid reason of practicality(you have no idea how many times I hear people saying practicality as a reason when the very thing they are talking about is in a world/game where that wouldn't even matter an Nth as much as they say).

Well, things also have to make sense "within itself". If the sexiness is always just going to be that random tongue-in-cheek fantasy layer on top and not really contribute in a deeper way to like, say, the story or something, then it's pretty much always going to be fair game to be singled out.

They don't honestly. Most of it fits the same reason of how Shonen usually has the males get slowly stripped while fighting, especially than main characters.

Well, something else to think about. In certain situations and universes, it probably wouldn't make sense for clothes to be left unscathed when you just took 8 Gallick Guns to the chest or something. At that point, what you would look at would be things like is the camera zooming at weird times to highlight a piece of clothing disintegrating. Does everything come to a complete halt so the audience can witness what piece of cloth got torn (E.G. Queen's Gate or something). Are the clothes disintegrating in a specific manner that seems highly unlikely? (E.G. MK9 Sonya)

Meant that in general to any series that has hot males, yet they are usually ignored even when they obviously show lots of skin but when a female does it...

Ya know, a lot of this might also feed into history and what's been acceptable until now. With things like boxing, wrestling, etc., shirtless dudes are kind of a given. I personally think there are ways to do something equivalent for females without it being a big deal (like I mentioned for Mila). But, you know what would reeeeeeally make someone uncomfortable? Have a dude in nothing but compression shorts or something caress himself like Jenny from Bloody Roar does...

...Or wait. I think that was Fox actually. lol

Dante has a sizeable female fanbase, so does Vergil. Hell, Shirtless Vergil was added in DMC3:SE SPECIFICALLY for the female fanbase(same with Shirtless Dante, but that was in the original version too).

I remember coatless Vergil. Pretty sure he still had a shirt.

I added that definition to show that specific purpose: People add their definition to stuff like sexualize and objectification, but they are both EXACTLY what they are, you either see something as sexy, an object or both. People see what they see as sexy and people see what they see as an object to the detriment of anything else. That's mainly why I find an issue with how people toss around the word without knowing what it means or the implication.

Well, I think that working definitions of things can be okay. Words evolve. Discourse surrounding the words evolve. Everyone just going back and saying "That's not what the dictionary says misogyny is!" (for example) will only get you so far. That's why talking about context is important.

As you stated, nudity ISN'T sexual by itself, just like how Elena's outfit BY ITSELF isn't sexual, but by the logic the person used for Urien, ELENA SHOULDN'T BE SEXUAL JUST BECAUSE OF HER OUTFIT. Her character traits doesn't even fit enough for her to be sexy by itself either, so it's forcibly making her sexy, thus sexualizing her.

At that point, it's important to ask in what ways are the creators sexualizing the character. Are they sexualizing a character past a "believability" point? (I dunno what word to use.) Rule 34 exists. Technically anything and everything is sexualized by somebody. But, that does the discussion no good and that's when the dictionary definition breaks down.

While I'm not sure if SC4 had better advertisements or indulged just as badly, I mainly pointed out Lost Swords because there's a good chance that Lost Swords is the FINAL Soul Calibur game...think about that.

That would be unfortunate. I like SC. Ivy is actually my favorite character. But, if it does come to an end, they did indeed have issues beyond sexualization. They're just maybe not doing themselves any favors by banking on that at the moment.

Ehhhh...I could somewhat agree with that....but I really can't.

I'll get you next time, Gadget.

Why are the girls modeled so beautifully and detailed, when the guys' bodies look like they are out of a PS2 game?

Because no one cares about the guys. Kappa.

Why are the textures of the few male DLC outfits so horrendous, when the female outfits look just fine?

Because no one cares about the guys. Kappa.

Why do they have to gender-bend an existing fan favorite male character?

Tengu isn't sexy.

Why do the textures and antialiasing look in Last Round just as shitty as in DOA5, when they apparently had the time to rework the breast physics again?

Because boobs. Kappa.

Why do they rather advertise tits, than talk about new/reworked game mechanics?

Because no one cares about game mechanics. Kappa.

No, but seriously, the people who are actually like that are numerous. And you know, Tengu really isn't sexy. But, THAT'S OKAY. lol

 

[Malfury]

Still waiting for the Men In Towels DLC.

 

[Goarmagon]

I think a "Men Working" DLC would be more appropriate for fanservice.

 

[TRI Mike]

It's not a matter of the girls being more sexualized than the guys (they are), the issue is that the entire focus of the game in Ultimate seems to be towards costumes and fetishes. I got into these forums and communities over at several social networks when vanilla was in development and I remember clearly Team NINJA saying the focus of the game would be gameplay, balance and the competitive community to be able to compete with games like Virtua, Street Fighter, etc. That without forgetting that yeah, the girls in our game are busty and cute.

But in Ultimate, it's been fetish DLC one after the other. I'm tired of showing the game to people trying to convince them it's a solid fighter only to be ridiculed when they start finding pictures all over the internet of the girls wearing towels, secretary, policewoman, micro bikinis and other stuff you'd see in porn movies; gravure movies and discussions everywhere about hairstyles and who looks hotter in a bikini.

I also like the DOA characters, don't get me wrong. I matured playing DOA3 and DOA2U and have made excellent friends in my country and FSD because of the franchise, but while I appreciate how pretty the girls look, DOA is a fighting game and fighting games are about learning and defeating your opponent. Not about having a huge otaku crowd getting mad about costumes and Rachel not having loose hair. It's sad.

 

[werewolfgold]

Hell hath no fury like people who want more hairstyles for Rachel. lol

 

[Yurlungur]

Guess what? The selling point of those other games aren't the boob physics and soft skin textures.

 

[Mayor-Of-Mustard]

I honestly prefer the small DLC packs in vanilla that only had four costumes, they weren't rushed (as badly) and not EVERYTHING was copy and paste (well, Leifang's dress and Hitomi's waitress outfit) but the guys weren't left out for MONTHS AND MONTHS :3

 

[Jyakotu]

My only issue with the sexualized side of DOA is when people use that as a barrier to not even want to give the game a fair chance. That's totally not fair to the franchise and it's honestly a piss poor excuse to not try a fighting game. Plenty of other games have been commercially successful and featured attractive female characters (Bayonetta 2 anyone?), so why is DOA any different? People know that DOA is a fighting game, first and foremost, and DOA is NOT the only game with sexualized females. There's a reason why females are added to fighting games, because let's be honest, nobody wants a sausage fest character roster.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Guess what? The selling point of those other games aren't the boob physics and soft skin textures.

Hayashi is a damn pervert, so the fuck what? And making it obvious on what the game is, yet not bothering to even CHECK FOR YOURSELF OR MAYBE THE TOURNEY SCENE if the game is even playable let alone good is just forcing yourself to be ignorant.

This is the same thing with Arcana Heart(which does the same thing and surprise surprise, it has good gameplay too) and even various anime games are being slapped around like they are pandering BS.

@werewolfgold I'll respond to your post later on soon.