DOA5 E3 Version Q&A

[EMPEROR_COW]

Cow liked your post.

I rest my case.

I liked it because it made perfect sense, unlike the utter nonsense you've been saying.

If you were actually doing what you claimed to be a "frame trap" correctly then you would have destroyed every "mash" attempt done.

So either they weren't actually mashing, or you have no idea how to setup a frame trap. From your post, it seems to be the latter.

Just saying....

 

[Chris Harris]

I liked it because it made perfect sense, unlike the utter nonsense you've been saying.

If you were actually doing what you claimed to be a "frame trap" correctly then you would have destroyed every "mash" attempt done.

So either they weren't actually mashing, or you have no idea how to setup a frame trap. From your post, it seems to be the latter.

Just saying....

What he means is not that the frame trap doesn't work (well it didn't) but that it meant so little to him he decided to hit buttons and not even a launcher. He just started doing jabs because he simply didn't care because he knows the risk/reward is still even for it. He's not going to get stunned (without the ability for one chance out) or launched for pressing a button so might as well go for it.

That is the type of mentality that 90% of the community has (especially if they didn't branch out to other games) because it makes sense to play not caring one bit rather than caring.

To have frame advantage from an attack (especially if blocked) there has to be a scare factor from hitting the button. In DoA you know you have at LEAST one chance out for pressing a button which is what turns people off. Competitive players like to go "Okay I'm at +5 and this guy still hit buttons, I'mma do a bigger attack or loop him with advantage" so the person hitting buttons either learns or dies to what he thinks is "cheap".

The great thing about DoA is that they can still play DoA4 all they want but at a higher level there will actually be a "apparent" skill gap between someone who is knowledgeable about the game (DoA5) and someone who just knows the basics of the system.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

The great thing about DoA is that they can still play DoA4 all they want but at a higher level there will actually be a "apparent" skill gap between someone who is knowledgeable about the game (DoA5) and someone who just knows the basics of the system.

Knowledgeable about DOA5 like he got battered senselessly in every match on stream, be it casual or not ?

What did that benefit him? What the hell is the point of all the damn knowledge in the world if he can't implement it to get whatever point he has across or to prove a concept ?

The guy's been saying nothing but utter nonsense as if he is the voice of the community, which he is not. He wants every game on earth to have the same monotonous set of rules that he's familiar with, claiming that this is best for everyone, which is stupid.

Every damn player I've showed the alpha demo to from top VF players to top SC players and even TEKKEN PLAYERS all loved the system, loved the flow of the game, loved the whole mechanics and mind game element. They even asked me some pretty technical stuff and they understood how the game worked, some even referencing older DOAs. They all welcomed the great improvements over the crap that was DOA4. They are all looking forward to it.

Even if they remove all holds from stun, and even if they remove delayable strings, and even if they stop tits from bouncing so they don't distract him while hes playing, he will still complain about some shit and say THIS GAME NEEDS SO AND SO TO BE TOURNAMENT VIABLE!! Hes sounding like a broken record.

Honestly, after hearing that crap he had to say about frame traps, he has no damn clue what hes talking about.

His solution to winning an argument is putting someone on ignore for crying out loud. You call this a response to an argument ?

I'm not going to debate this further with you if all you're going to do is defend DOA as if there's nothing wrong with the game. You were not at E3. You did not experience what I experienced. No level of theory fighter from you is going to convince me that I was not playing right and the game is fine how it is (under the confines of the discussion topic).

I'm sorry but that sounds pathetic.

At least when Rikuto holds an argument, he actually tries to validate his points and have an "actual" argument and does his best to state facts. Despite the disagreements we have, I have much more respect for that type of discussion.

Its always the same. If you don't agree with Dogg, then you're a DOA4 fan boy. Same shit over and over.

I have no problems with Dogg personally, but he's really starting to piss me off with that attitude.

Hes not the only guy that plays other games outside DOA.

Don't get me wrong. I welcome the improvements to the system, but I don't like this overkill approach to make it void from everything it is, especially if you can't back up what you have to say properly and can't handle the pressure of disagreement.

 

[Awesmic]

 

[Arnell Long]

No matter how DOA5 turns out, someone will be displeased. Let just hope when it does, it's pleased by the masses.

Its already better than DOA4, so hey, that's a step in the right direction.

 

[DrDogg]

Knowledgeable about DOA5 like he got battered senselessly in every match on stream, be it casual or not ?

What did that benefit him? What the hell is the point of all the damn knowledge in the world if he can't implement it to get whatever point he has across or to prove a concept ?

This is another instance of some weird translator you have in which you ignore what's actually said in favor of whatever you think was said.

I made it very clear on the stream that I play on stick. At E3 I could only play on pad, and an Xbox pad at that. Even the fighting games I play on pad (Tekken, MK) I use a PS pad. I even have a converter for the few instances I'm forced to play those games on Xbox.

In addition, none of my mains were playable in the E3 build and I spent much of my time with the game mining information for you and everyone else on that stream and reading these boards. Everyone I played against at E3 was either playing their main, or they had time to study whatever character they decided to play as.

The guy's been saying nothing but utter nonsense as if he is the voice of the community, which he is not.

I am one of many voices that are in-line with what most of the greater fighting game community thinks. As far as my "utter nonsense", it seems as though Chris understood me just fine. Rikuto and others also agree with just about everything I've said. In fact, there are significantly more people on here that disagree with you and think you're the one spouting "utter nonsense".

He wants every game on earth to have the same monotonous set of rules that he's familiar with, claiming that this is best for everyone, which is stupid.

I have never once stated that my opinions are "best for everyone". In fact, I've gone out of my way to make it clear that I think the game caters well to casuals and fans of past DOA titles. My goal is to make the game acceptable by the greater FGC so there's actually a competitive scene. Something that DOA has never seen before.

Every damn player I've showed the alpha demo to from top VF players to top SC players and even TEKKEN PLAYERS all loved the system, loved the flow of the game, loved the whole mechanics and mind game element. They even asked me some pretty technical stuff and they understood how the game worked, some even referencing older DOAs. They all welcomed the great improvements over the crap that was DOA4. They are all looking forward to it.

Give them a month with the game and put them in a tournament environment and see what happens. Most of the people who hate on DOA4 thought the game was okay for the first month or so. It wasn't until we really started to see what high-level DOA4 was all about that our opinions skewed so negatively.

Even if they remove all holds from stun, and even if they remove delayable strings, and even if they stop tits from bouncing so they don't distract him while hes playing, he will still complain about some shit and say THIS GAME NEEDS SO AND SO TO BE TOURNAMENT VIABLE!! Hes sounding like a broken record.

Actually, I think I've made it pretty clear that the underlying problem is the forced guessing. If steps are taken to remove that from the game, I won't have much to complain about. I've also made it very clear that holds do not have to be removed from stun. If you're going to lose your cool and start blindly flaming me, at least get your facts straight.

Honestly, after hearing that crap he had to say about frame traps, he has no damn clue what hes talking about.

I'll break it down for you since you can't seem to comprehend.

As Akira, if I'm at +12 and a slight distance, I know I can't dash forward and still beat the opponent's fasted attack. However, I can use a 66P to beat out anything they can do (other than counter). After I hit the opponent multiple times with 66P, they should know not to attack after the guard break. However, in the example I mentioned previously, the opponent continued to attack because they didn't care that they were at -12. Because of how the DOA system works, the risk of attacking from disadvantage isn't very high.

His solution to winning an argument is putting someone on ignore for crying out loud. You call this a response to an argument ?

I didn't feel as though the argument was won, and I also made it clear I had not ignored you yet. But it is abundantly clear that you and I have polar opposite views of what makes a competitive fighting game. I see no sense in continuing to argue the same topics with you over and over again.

I'd much rather skip over your responses than continue the argument because it's not benefiting either one of us. To me it's a waste of time and you seem to have finally snapped from it.

Its always the same. If you don't agree with Dogg, then you're a DOA4 fan boy. Same shit over and over.

I haven't called you a DOA4 fan boy in a little while. However, I do recall several other people on these boards using that term to describe you fairly recently.

I have no problems with Dogg personally, but he's really starting to piss me off with that attitude.

You could always ignore me. I'd have absolutely no problems with that.

Don't get me wrong. I welcome the improvements to the system, but I don't like this overkill approach to make it void from everything it is, especially if you can't back up what you have to say properly and can't handle the pressure of disagreement.

I think SC, VF and Tekken play extremely different from one another. If the changes I've suggested are made, it would still be DOA, just like these three games all have their own identity. In fact, at a casual level, the game would play almost identical to DOA4. The only thing you'd find different is that the game would have a solid competitive community and a much larger gap between the casual players and competitive players.

 

[d3v]

As Akira, if I'm at +12 and a slight distance, I know I can't dash forward and still beat the opponent's fasted attack. However, I can use a 66P to beat out anything they can do (other than counter). After I hit the opponent multiple times with 66P, they should know not to attack after the guard break. However, in the example I mentioned previously, the opponent continued to attack because they didn't care that they were at -12. Because of how the DOA system works, the risk of attacking from disadvantage isn't very high.

I believe this point is very important. With a system like that, it encourages sloppy offense which is the opposite of what we want. Bad offense should be punished, period.

 

[Jefffcore]

Every damn player I've showed the alpha demo to from top VF players to top SC players and even TEKKEN PLAYERS all loved the system, loved the flow of the game, loved the whole mechanics and mind game element. They even asked me some pretty technical stuff and they understood how the game worked, some even referencing older DOAs. They all welcomed the great improvements over the crap that was DOA4. They are all looking forward to it.

Give them a month with the game and put them in a tournament environment and see what happens. Most of the people who hate on DOA4 thought the game was okay for the first month or so. It wasn't until we really started to see what high-level DOA4 was all about that our opinions skewed so negatively.

This is true.

You're also showing them the alpha, and it's not any better than DOA4. The small number of stuns that you can't hold out of, weren't enough to out shine the 3 point holds. I'd rather play DOA4 than DOA5 if it ended up the way the alpha was.

Both can get very monotonous.

Actually, I think I've made it pretty clear that the underlying problem is the forced guessing. If steps are taken to remove that from the game, I won't have much to complain about. I've also made it very clear that holds do not have to be removed from stun. If you're going to lose your cool and start blindly flaming me, at least get your facts straight.

I understand what you're saying when you say forced guessing, but as long as holds are in stun, there will always be X amount of "forced" guessing.

As Akira, if I'm at +12 and a slight distance, I know I can't dash forward and still beat the opponent's fasted attack. However, I can use a 66P to beat out anything they can do (other than counter). After I hit the opponent multiple times with 66P, they should know not to attack after the guard break. However, in the example I mentioned previously, the opponent continued to attack because they didn't care that they were at -12. Because of how the DOA system works, the risk of attacking from disadvantage isn't very high.

What did they do, and what was the end result?

 

[Chris Harris]

This is true.

You're also showing them the alpha, and it's not any better than DOA4. The small number of stuns that you can't hold out of, weren't enough to out shine the 3 point holds. I'd rather play DOA4 than DOA5 if it ended up the way the alpha was.

Both can get very monotonous.




I understand what you're saying when you say forced guessing, but as long as holds are in stun, there will always be X amount of "forced" guessing.



What did they do, and what was the end result?

The hold being able to be used in stun isn't the problem. It's the amount of times it is able to be used. Please actually read posts rather than read like 10 words and think you understand it.

They have taken out 2-3 guesses that were in DoA4, we would like them to expand on this.

 

[Jefffcore]

Ditto

 

[AKNova7]

1) ??
2) Yes. Rikuto and DrDogg mentioned on stream that Sarah has a 5 frame in this stance that gives advantage and were mind blown by it.
.

Whoa. Hey, Dr. Dogg. That stance kick. Free Step Dodgable, or no?

She's perfect just the way she is. She's definitely top tier, but not unbeatable or overpowered. You just have to play defense and not spam counters. I would be disappointed if she was toned down. I'd much rather see everyone else buffed up to match her abilities.

If that's so, personally, I'd love to see Ayane's back turned transitions be safe enough on block that mix-ups could ensue. Just saying, lol.

Speaking of that, I know it's beyond unlikely, but did her back turned transitions seem at all safer since Alpha?

 

[StickyStaines]

I'd like to go over your solutions you outlined in the other thread.

With free cancelling, you said that the person free cancelling should be at a big disadvantage. But why? You've said 90% of strings are unsafe, but you can just keep on attacking with free cancelling? I assume that you say this because of string delays and not because free cancelling gives some magic frame advantage. But then, if string delays were fixed, would this need to be fixed?

 

[Rikuto]

Whoa. Hey, Dr. Dogg. That stance kick. Free Step Dodgable, or no?

I remember at least one of the options out of stance tracked, maybe two of them. In the end it didn't change much... we determined that there was no universal way to escape all of the options in that stance, and the risk/reward is definitely not in the defenders favor since the mid kick gives the same type of unholdable stun that a CB does.

This is the type of "forced guessing" we actually promote, because Sarah has to set you up for it to work. Long story short, don't let that bitch get close enough to use it.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Free canceling doesn't give you frame advantage in the typical sense. Free canceling makes makes it difficult to gauge whether your opponent actually canceled or is just using DOA's huge string delay to delay the next part of the string. In a traditional fighter, you would be able to punish your opponent accordingly but in DOA you're continuously left guessing. This is why most DOA high level play cones down to "Okay, I'll block his entire string and then throw." But then, high level players know this so then neither wants to attack. The irony is that this scenario gives the kind of pressure that frame advantage should but doesn't.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Most of the strings in the game are negative frames on block. The problem being that the mixup between delay and free cancel combined with the crush system makes every string on block a guessing game. Pretty much to get out of the situation without holding you have to call the bluff and use your jab or fastest mid to beat them out / try and crush them. Most situation tend to boil down to that I find.

I agree with virtuapai who in another topic was explaining that it is a skill you can develop. Certain match-ups defeat this paper system though. For the most part if you have the character knowledge you can at least make an educated guess.

 

[Allan Paris]

Most of the strings in the game are negative frames on block. The problem being that the mixup between delay and free cancel combined with the crush system makes every string on block a guessing game. Pretty much to get out of the situation without holding you have to call the bluff and use your jab or fastest mid to beat them out / try and crush them. Most situation tend to boil down to that I find.

90% is not 'most' but the mass majority. Everything is unsafe unless you have a particular character (4 primarily). What does the crush system have to do with anything? In 4 they went through everything with particular characters, which was stupid. Now they seem to crush what they are suppose to, highs. So, I don't get how the crush system is a part of the problem.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Well the way I see it is like so. Certain characters can free cancel and crush. Mostly vs charcters who have slower mids. By the the time you see the cancel if you try and jab you can still be crushed. I think it adds another layer to everything. I cant think of any examples.
Are there moves that can crush mids at slight frame disadvantage?

Maybe it is a problem that remedies itself offline?

I guess the situation goes for the defending player as well. Without fast enough options if you have a feeling what they are gonna fcancel into you should have enough advantage to crush there next option. So once again an option for both players that can go either way.

 

[Chris Harris]

Well the way I see it is like so. Certain characters can free cancel and crush. Mostly vs charcters who have slower mids. By the the time you see the cancel if you try and jab you can still be crushed. I think it adds another layer to everything. I cant think of any examples.
Are there moves that can crush mids at slight frame disadvantage?

That isn't another layer that you are talking about. . . .it's the only layer when you are trying to break someone down. Throws are the only way to open someone up or throwing out a low sweep but sweeps don't give much of anything in DoA.

Doing an attack and being at disadvantage and then doing ANOTHER unsafe move (probably not as it may have a follow up) is not the optimal way to try and play safe.

Fyi the best characters in DoA 4 has super evasive mid crushes that went under so many mids, so it was a very common strategy.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Like Ryu's 2F+K and Helena's P+K.

I see your point but I wasnt talking about massive disadvantage. If you use a string that leaves you at a small disadvantage. If they even hesitate in the slightest I think Ryu's 2F+K will beat out some characters fastest mids and all highs. Very character specific I do admit. I assume everybody's problem with the Fcancel is it creates false mixups (Messing up the throw punishment system and making everything safer then it should be). Maybe the crush system plays no role then. In my mind they limit counter attack options in some situations.

Playing safe is smart. Against the best Doa players I have played I find that rules kinda go out the window though.

Even though doing an unsafe move in a string followed by another safe move is bad on paper. It looks like Doa's delay everything makes it not that bad of an option. Everything in a string is safe unless you wanna take a risk right?

Btw Iam interested you guys views on these subjects. The questions are legit and not me trying to be condescending.

 

[Chris Harris]

Like Ryu's 2F+K and Helena's P+K.

I see your point but I wasnt talking about massive disadvantage. If you use a string that leaves you at a small disadvantage. If they even hesitate in the slightest I think Ryu's 2F+K will beat out some characters fastest mids and all highs. Very character specific I do admit. I assume everybody's problem with the Fcancel is it creates false mixups (Messing up the throw punishment system and making everything safer then it should be). Maybe the crush system plays no role then. In my mind they limit counter attack options in some situations.

Playing safe is smart. Against the best Doa players I have played I find that rules kinda go out the window though.

Even though doing an unsafe move in a string followed by another safe move is bad on paper. It looks like Doa's delay everything makes it not that bad of an option. Everything in a string is safe unless you wanna take a risk right?

Btw Iam interested you guys views on these subjects. The questions are legit and not me trying to be condescending.

The problem isn't the false mix up but that it's pretty much "Do I stop the string or do I continue?" It's very annoying to play a game where the main fighting tool is attack out of disadvantage because even IF you free cancel you have to decide do i go evasive, speed, or big. Then the opponent has to make a guess and if he's right all he gets is a stun which is unfair since he successfully defended. It wouldn't be a problem if there was no hold and the guessing ended there but it doesn't. Not only did you get through that hard part your opponent now has 1-3 chances to get out of this bad situation he put himself in. They did well with adding the new attacks and properties but adding to that would be optimal.