DOA5: New Gameplay Trailers - Ayane, Hayate, & Hitomi

[FakeSypha]

Actually I think the fastest jab is about 7 frames or something, if I'm not mistaken, and it belongs to Kasumi lol.

As Raansu said, the fastest jab is 9 frames and can be done with both Kasumi and Christie.

 

[DrDogg]

double low throw is a option select strat sypher. Its usually used on sit down stuns and deeper stuns since the recovery is relatively fast and the opponent is in stun or in hold animation. Main reason a second low throw is actually done is because they actually saw you hold while they recovered from the first throw and since both the low hold and low throw have similar frames, it makes it easier to punish you this way if a hold does indeed come out. If it doesn't usually the attacker will recognize that and will attack since in some stuns the attacker is still left at advantage.

How is that an option select? Does the throw not come out the second time if there's no counterhold? I'm not seeing the option select, unless you just have your terminology wrong.

 

[Allan Paris]

Yeah, it's the wrong terminology, and I don't see how the person is grabbing comes out on top, unless their opponent actually holds. There are no real strats playing DOA 4 besides. . . mash, mash, mash.

 

[Aion]

The option select would be referring to the 1st throw. On sit-down stun for example, if the opponent counters they get thrown, if not then the offender recovers from his/her throw before the opponent can act.

So the first part is the option select; the second part gives you the benefit of a second try which can be performed on reaction.

 

[Allan Paris]

That's not an option select. That's a dumb strat catering to a dumb game.

 

[Rikuto]

Sounds like Spartan/Leon tactics with their standing throws tbh.

I don't know if you can really call it an option select. It's solid, though. Safe, in fact, which is better than what you can do with most of the games assorted bullshit.

 

[Aion]

That's not an option select. That's a dumb strat catering to a dumb game.

DOA4 may be a dumb game, and this option select may look bad, but it is an option select regardless. Don't see why you should deny that fact.

 

[Allan Paris]

An option select is technically doing two moves at once, and having the best option for the situation come out automatically.

How and where in that situation are you getting that?

 

[DrDogg]

DOA4 may be a dumb game, and this option select may look bad, but it is an option select regardless. Don't see why you should deny that fact.

As Allen stated, if it were an option select the throw wouldn't execute unless the opponent countered.

I don't think anyone is saying it's not a solid strat within the confines of DOA4, we're just questioning Manny's terminology and lack of understanding (of the term).

 

[Aion]

An option select is technically doing two moves at once, and having the best option for the situation come out automatically.

How and where in that situation are you getting that?

Yes but for what reason? To safely cover ground or go on the offensive while minimizing risk. That's what this is. Not all option select examples are exactly identical; they are more defined by their purpose/benefit than their mechanics.

Some option selects work off of block-stun vs no block-stun scenarios; others work off 1 button throws that activate off a normal when close up (e.g SF2, GG etc), which create throw vs hit-stun/blockstun/whiff scenarios (this one has more risk btw) and so on. So really, OS's are based on scenarios.

This is a grab vs no grab scenario; you're either gonna get the grab or you don't. The options the game gives you is that you either whiff and recover safely (sacrificing an attack), or you get a high-counter grab; so which is the best option (select)? What makes this OS real scrubby looking, is the fact that both options are very advantageous despite seeming looking stupid whiffing a grab; because as we talked about, even if you whiff the first grab and you look like a dummy, you are now in an ideal position to react to whatever comes next. I don't think it's a bad thing however, the pro is that you are still getting good advantage for putting the opponent in a deep stun; the con is that it looks pretty ugly.

Edit: @ DrDogg, the throw technically doesn't execute if it whiffs now does it?

 

[Allan Paris]

Ok, in your reply, you pretty much made my statement even clearer, "A dumb strat catering to a dumb game".

The options the game gives you is that you either whiff and recover safely (sacrificing an attack), or you get a high-counter grab

The game doesn't give you option selects, it force feeds this to you in every situation. However, I get what you are saying and why you and possibly others may think this is an option select.

What makes this OS real scrubby looking, is the fact that both options are very advantageous despite seeming looking stupid whiffing a grab; because as we talked about, even if you whiff the first grab and you look like a dummy, you are now in an ideal position to react to whatever comes next.

Scrubby, indeed.

Option selects are never a bad thing. But grabbing low twice and calling it an "option select" in this situation, is stretching the term to me.

 

[synce]

Maybe it's just me but the moves sound really weak now. Like they're hitting a sack of potatoes. And that's my expert commentary for the day

 

[Rikuto]

I think the idea is that grabbing low once is the option select as you either get damage (the automatic outcome) or advantage.

Anything afterwards is what you can use as a result of that. Sadly getting advantage in DOA 4/D is nearly worthless...

 

[Aion]

Ok, in your reply, you pretty much made my statement even clearer, "A dumb strat catering to a dumb game".

The game doesn't give you option selects, it force feeds this to you in every situation. However, I get what you are saying and why you and possibly others may think this is an option select.

Scrubby, indeed.

Option selects are never a bad thing. But grabbing low twice and calling it an "option select" in this situation, is stretching the term to me.

I don't see how I can explain it any clearer to you. Dumbing down my description by saying I'm just "grabbing low twice and calling it an 'option select'" means you're avoiding the thorough explanation or just not getting it. It's clearly more than just grabbing low twice, there are effects behind it.

I think the idea is that grabbing low once is the option select as you either get damage (the automatic outcome) or advantage.

Anything afterwards is what you can use as a result of that. Sadly getting advantage in DOA 4/D is nearly worthless...

Yes.

 

[Allan Paris]

I don't see how I can explain it any clearer to you. Dumbing down my description by saying I'm just "grabbing low twice and calling it an 'option select'" means you're avoiding the thorough explanation or just not getting it. It's clearly more than just grabbing low twice, there are effects behind it.

Yeah I get that and I understand it, I still think this is stretching the term. Mainly because of how doa4 is played. What real advantage do you gain after the 1st grab, to be positioned to get a better chance at grabbing the holding opponent?

Man, I guess, we got option selects.

 

[Raansu]

Option selects would be something like back staggers in 3.1 where if you are in the stun and input a hold but the opponent doesn't attack then you just fall to the ground and if the opponent does attack then your character holds. That's an option select.

Throwing out 2 low throws in a jacked up situation in a jacked up game is not an option select.

 

[Allan Paris]

Option selects would be something like back staggers in 3.1 where if you are in the stun and input a hold but the opponent doesn't attack then you just fall to the ground and if the opponent does attack then your character holds. That's an option select.

Throwing out 2 low throws in a jacked up situation in a jacked up game is not an option select.

I can't LIKE this enough!

Edit: The same goes for Dr.Dogg's post.

 

[DrDogg]

Edit: @ DrDogg, the throw technically doesn't execute if it whiffs now does it?

Yes it does. The throw doesn't connect, but it definitely executes.

And you're still not understanding what an option select is. A real option select means that you input a single notation and based on the opponent's actions, your character performs one of two options.

For example, in SF4 when landing from a jump, an option select might be a late jump kick just before you land, or performing a hurricane kick immediately after landing (both performed with the same notation). If the opponent remains stationary, the jump kick is executed and the opponent simply blocks it. If the opponent attempts a back dash, the hurricane kick is executed, catching the back dash.

In the DOA4 scenario presented here, all you're doing is performing two separate notations to execute two throws (whether they connect or not is irrelevant). If the opponent counters, you get the throw. If the opponent doesn't counter, your character STILL attempts the throw.

To be a proper option select, it'd have to be something like... you input the throw notation and if the opponent counters, you execute the throw. If the opponent doesn't counter, the throw doesn't execute at all (not even attempted).

This entire conversation is one of the reasons why the people who play other fighting games at a competitive level should be part of the feedback "committee".

 

[Berzerk!]

Don't worry there are Doa players who understand other games and their terminology. No, there scenario given of two low throws is now an options select. An option select is when you input two moves in a timeframe where only one thing can come out and the game selects the best thing for you.

It's also why options selects (in street fighter anyway, it seems less common and/or less powerful in utility in other fighters) are fucking stupid.

Option selects let the attacker spread their bets in an attack without having to commit to the right choice and forces more of a guessing instead of solid defensive choice situation on the defender. It's similarly bad in sf4 that the risk/reward of certain moves has been ruined by fadc allowing them to become safe on block.

I like that for the most part in Doa you have to back your choices (low hold notwithstanding)

A little digression but useful to illustrate the point that we not only do not necessarily want certain things from other fighters in Doa. But I agree you do need people who understand these things to give feedback on the game, including people who would no doubt disagree with my views on sf option selects for example. (overall I think some are ok but many are abusive and not all the cast have access to this type of tool)

Couple of other points :
Drdoggs points on frame advantage especially out of guard stun are important and I think Aion mentioned the simple solution; add an execution delay to defensive holds after a guard break. So you can still block, attack from disadvantage (to play abare as its known in VF) or sidestep if the opponents follow up is not fast enough, but countering should pretty much be a non option in that situation.

mr wah you mentioned anyone can update the Doa wiki - maybe a news post to promote this with some info would be good to get the ball rolling? A refresher now and then on site functions would be good

Sorry for typos I've only had mobile access this weekend

 

[Aion]

@ Raansu: We already established that the option select is in the first throw, not the second. It is still similar to your example; if the opponent holds, you get a throw; if the opponent doesn't, then you simply whiff.

@DrDogg: An actual throw only executes after it connects; otherwise it's just the attempt animation that 'executes' and not an actual my character just grabbed your character animation. Whiff animation executing and a connected throw animating is completely different.

"if it were an option select the throw wouldn't execute unless the opponent countered."

Grab attempt animation executing and an actual grab connecting/executing are obviously two significantly different things; significant enough that they become two seperate scenarios based on a single notation, so:

"A real option select means that you input a single notation and based on the opponent's actions, your character performs one of two options."

This still applies. The grab is a single notation. Based on the opponents actions (to hold or not to hold) your character performs one of two options: execute a highly damaging grab or whiff in the opponents face.

Still similar to your SFIV example because in both cases, the attackers' option select changes based on their opponents action/s.

So again, how is this different? Plus, I already gave the SFIV OS example plus another regarding 1 button grabs. There is a (commonly known) OS example with normal throws in KoFXIII. In KoFXIII; if you go for a normal grab off an empty hop for example, and hold fwd+C/D (depends on the character); you will either get a grab if they stay blocking, or you will hit them out of the air with a close normal if they attempt to jump. However, this doesn't even give you as much basic advantage as the DOA4 scenario because they can either tech the throw if they look for it; reversal special or even use their own close normal; you do then get more advantage if you mix-things up with timing but that's beyond the OS point, much like the scenario after the first grab in our DOA4 example.

A basic GG OS example is with air-grabs; they are performed the same way they are on the ground. If you are in the correct range/alignment, you will get an air grab; if not, you will hit them (they may take or block it). This scenario is different than the SFIV, KoFXIII and DOA4 example; plus, this example can't really be affected by the opponents actions. It is affected by a number of things actually, but mainly, player judgement; it's an OS that covers an attackers' mistakes. Though, yet again, this is still unanimously known to be an OS; even the DOA4 example has more in common with the SFIV & KoFXIII examples.

There is no law saying that an OS is strictly the way you explained. There is room for leniency, albeit very small; but the DOA4 example still fits.

We've all said the same thing defining what an option select is; a single input that can yield seperate results, in order to lessen risk/yield more advantage. So again I ask, how is this example different?