DOA5: New Gameplay Trailers - Ayane, Hayate, & Hitomi

[Allan Paris]

Raansu's example is a perfect example for an option select in doa, and no, you don't whiff anything if the opponent doesn't attack, you just fall to the floor. The hold will become activated once an attack is done before you hit the floor.

Going by how you and so far Manny want to call option selects in DOA 4, EVERY time you stun someone deep enough, just grabbing at them once is an option select. That is not an option select. Man, this is too funny, we have been playing this fucked up game for too long, nothing is in its proper perspective.

This example is different because when you stun someone, you grab at them anyways in DOA 4. This is basic stuff, it is what you do for this game because there are no restrictions on them coming out constantly. So you have to grab or play russian roulette with your life bar. You get no real advantage from doing the first grab unless the opponent holds. If not you just get positioning that grants you absolutely nothing.

Edit: I don't see any room for leniency in the definition of an option select. Again, this situation is stretching the term.

 

[Raansu]

@ Raansu: We already established that the option select is in the first throw, not the second. It is still similar to your example; if the opponent holds, you get a throw; if the opponent doesn't, then you simply whiff.

No, what you are doing is playing the guessing. This is not an option select as you are doing an input and regardless of the situation your character is doing the action of a throw. An option select requires action from your opponent to initiate the input from your character.

My example in 3.1 with back staggers is an option select. Throwing out a low throw on a stunned opponent is you just assuming they are going to low hold to get out of the stun. That's not an option select, thats you making an educated guess based on the assumption of previous reactions from the opponent being stunned.

For it to be an option select you would need to put in the input of a low throw and your character would only respond to the input if the opponent actually does a low hold. If he does not do a low hold he would simply stay stunned and your character would do no action. That would be an option select.

 

[Rikuto]

He's not guessing that they will low hold Raansu. By selecting low throw he is guaranteeing one of two positive outcomes -- the hold will be thrown, or he will be at substantial advantage.

It's not technically an option select, as has been stated, but it does give a similar benefit of one. That DOA happens to shit all over frame advantage being highly relevant is another issue altoghether.

 

[Raansu]

He's not guessing that they will low hold Raansu. By selecting low throw he is guarantee'ing one of two outcomes -- the hold will be thrown, or he will be at substantial advantage.

It's not technically an option select, as has been stated, but it does give a similar benefit of one. That DOA happens to shit all over frame advantage being highly relevant is another issue altoghether.

He is making a guess...that is a 50/50 situation that guarantee's nothing. It either whiffs or it connects. It gives no real advantage. It's not an option select, its just playing the mind game in a fucked up game.

 

[Rikuto]

There is no guess Raansu.

It GUARANTEES one of those two outcomes. Whatever happens afterwards may well be a guess, albeit in the attackers favor slightly, but that's the nature of DOA. In this round of attacking however, there is no guess. The positive outcome will always go to the person doing the low throw.

The absolute and only exception to this would be if the person was slow escaping, and if that were the case you would have noticed it long before you ever had to make the decision to low throw.

 

[Matt Ponton]

This entire conversation is one of the reasons why the people who play other fighting games at a competitive level should be part of the feedback "committee".

Don't even get started with "2-in-1s", and Manny doesn't even get his terminology right for guard break/guard crush in his breakdown vid.

 

[DrDogg]

Option selects let the attacker spread their bets in an attack without having to commit to the right choice and forces more of a guessing instead of solid defensive choice situation on the defender. It's similarly bad in sf4 that the risk/reward of certain moves has been ruined by fadc allowing them to become safe on block.

I agree that option selects are not a good thing. When I first heard about them I was pretty appalled. It's not something I would want in any fighting game.

@DrDogg: An actual throw only executes after it connects; otherwise it's just the attempt animation that 'executes' and not an actual my character just grabbed your character animation. Whiff animation executing and a connected throw animating is completely different.

Now you're arguing semantics. I see I have to put a nail in this coffin.

A throw attempt is a throw attempt. Whether or not the throw actual connects is irrelevant. If this were a proper OS, the throw would not execute AT ALL. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

There is a (commonly known) OS example with normal throws in KoFXIII. In KoFXIII; if you go for a normal grab off an empty hop for example, and hold fwd+C/D (depends on the character); you will either get a grab if they stay blocking, or you will hit them out of the air with a close normal if they attempt to jump. However, this doesn't even give you as much basic advantage as the DOA4 scenario because they can either tech the throw if they look for it; reversal special or even use their own close normal; you do then get more advantage if you mix-things up with timing but that's beyond the OS point, much like the scenario after the first grab in our DOA4 example.

Why are you even bringing up how much advantage is given? No one is debating the strategic value of your scenario within the confines of DOA4. The ONLY debate is whether or not it's an option select.

Your KoF and GG examples are an OS. You input one notation and get either an attack or a throw. It is not like your DOA4 example at all. In your example you get a throw... no matter what. Once again... WHETHER OR NOT THE THROW CONNECTS IS IRRELEVANT.

There is no law saying that an OS is strictly the way you explained. There is room for leniency, albeit very small; but the DOA4 example still fits.

Really? So I can just make up definitions now because there's no magical law saying otherwise? There is a specific definition of an option select. There are very slight variations to that definition, but they all mean the same thing. Your throw scenario is NOT and option select.

 

[UncleKitchener]

In most cases, frame advantage should not guarantee an attack (there are exceptions). You just need enough frame advantage to beat the opponent's fastest attack with your fastest attack. Depending on spacing, that could be as little as +1.

Unfortunately, counters in DOA execute in 0 frames and that throws the whole formula off. If that remains the same, suddenly you need enough frame advantage to land a guaranteed hit. In this situation it's not even really frame advantage in a sense, it's just an attack that gives you a guaranteed followup.

With the way DOA currently works, even the sidestepping could be ruined by 0-frame counters. Let's say you sidestep an attack that leaves the opponent at -8 on whiff. You attack with a 9-frame jab, but the opponent can still counter because of the 0-frame execution.

So what's the best solution? Long startup on def holds or being inable to hold in certain situations?

Personally I see the system as really broken and something redundant.

Theres only 2 generators on the stage and they are both right next to each other. The generators blast you in the opposite direction. It's not going to happen.

Shouldn't you be able to do some positioning with some side-stepping?

 

[DrDogg]

So what's the best solution? Long startup on def holds or being inable to hold in certain situations?

Personally I see the system as really broken and something redundant.

You need attacks that ignore holds or you need to add start-up to holds. I prefer attacks that ignore holds because you maintain the core system of DOA and just give competitive players a way around it.

However, the attacks that ignore holds need to be good attacks. A 40-frame mid-punch that leads to nothing won't be effective in this situation. An unsafe, 15-frame launcher would work well though (depending on your frame adv).

 

[Raansu]

Shouldn't you be able to do some positioning with some side-stepping?

After watching Sorwah's stream last night, no it wont be possible since the bounce is low you wont have time to position yourself and would lose out on the free juggle. And it appears that both generators explode when hit. So as I said before, the situation you feared is unlikely to happen.