DOA5LR Tina Discussion

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Tina has 2 Frame Traps ? :eek:

Why didn't no one tell me !!!! :mad:

Edit: Can Someone Explain to me why :P+K: works better from the Front instead of from Behind after a critical burst ?

So many questions..... not enough Milk.
 
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Lulu

Well-Known Member
Sorry I dissappeared without warning

anyway.

Tina's :7::P::P: is a frame trap. The first punch is +3 on Block and the 2nd Punch is +0. Now I was very excited about this move but for the life of me I had no idea how to set this move up. Until I watched KiT 2016 last week.

Nashfan (a damn good Tina player) was Trolling everybody with this move. After getting a stun he would use :7::P: right afterwards.... naturally Talented Stagger Escapers managed to block this move no problem.... and they usually retaliated with a their fastest strike. Nashfan would counter hit them quite often. It was beautiful :oops:

So there you have it. Thats Tina's one and only Frame Trap. ;)
 

Decadence

New Member
Only +3? Unless Tina wants to go for a jab (leaving her vulnerable to high holds and crushes), a lot of characters are gonna counter hit Tina anyway.
The problem I see with this, and with her OHs for that matter, is that it's the same counter as everything else Tina does; push buttons. This, sadly, leads us straight back to 'guess right'.

Tina needs to have something that lets her threaten in a neutral game, either better crushes, better OHs, better speed, better reach or better advantage. Right now she's spent her entire points allowance on damage and has bugger all in any other category. Her damage may well make up for her other shortcomings in terms of overall tier position and game balance, but it makes her a really broken, boring character who doesn't really engage with the other player/character.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Only +3? Unless Tina wants to go for a jab (leaving her vulnerable to high holds and crushes), a lot of characters are gonna counter hit Tina anyway.
+3 is more than enough, generally Frame Traps are +1 or 0.... but on +3 her :6::P: and :2::P: should go uncontested. She won't get Counter Hit. One thing I noticed Nashfan did was jab afterwards.... just incase the Opponent Held instead of Stagger Escaping. In one or two instances he managed to score a sweet critical bursts. In every other Instance he scored a counter hit.
Tina needs to have something that lets her threaten in a neutral game, either better crushes, better OHs, better speed, better reach or better advantage. Right now she's spent her entire points allowance on damage and has bugger all in any other category. Her damage may well make up for her other shortcomings in terms of overall tier position and game balance, but it makes her a really broken, boring character who doesn't really engage with the other player/character.

I sort of agree.... but whatever it is they give her it needs to compliment her Grappling Style.... a quick and easy solution would be to just give her what Mila has.... Neutral on Combo Throw Breaks. Infact I actually don't really want any changes to Tina's neutral game.... its fine if she gets no respect on neutral..... what I do take serious issue with is the major lack of threatning things she can do even when she does have the advantage. Tina's an okay character... placed higher than some characters. But she doesn't have what a seemingly Weak Character like Eliot or Phase 4 have.... and that thing is Respect. People just don't respect Tina.... in the Tournanent I mentioned earlier nobody really gave a shit about getting caught in Tina's Ground Throws which makes All This somewhat useless.

I'm actually compliling a list of fair changes for Tina, its geared toward making Tina scarier without making her stronger.... I'l post them on the Weekend.

Also if anyone is Interested I could go hunting for Force Techs.
 

Decadence

New Member
The problem with giving her neutral combo throw breaks is that it wouldn't change her game at all. In fact, it would be terrible for her.
First problem is that she needs to land a combo throw at all, against an opponent who just needs to press buttons to prevent this; again, 'guess right'.
Second (and bigger) problem is that it would result in Tina going back into the neutral game, where we've established she sucks. Mila has a ton of options from a neutral game, so a way to force a neutral game is something she wants. Tina has absolutely no reason to force a scenario where she is arguably the worst equipped character to deal with it. Because she has no tools, neutral is essentially disadvantage for her, so there would be no real change.

Tina needs to be able to make reads, not guesses. The difference every other character has is that they have some strength in the neutral game that allows them to act, and the threat of this action limits and affects the opponent. It's the opponent's likely reaction to this threat that a player then 'reads'; an educated reaction to likelihood caused by an unbalanced situation.
Tina's neutral game is so bad, that it doesn't limit the enemy. Because the majority of every other character's options beats pretty much everything Tina has, they can pretty much do whatever they want, and the majority of players know this. Doing almost anything will stuff Tina's options. So rather than 'reading' the opponent's options against her own, Tina is left with a pure guess against the possibility of the enemy doing absolutely anything. Like a game of paper, rock, scissors, there is no educated read or strategy as no option is more likely than another. This is the cause of Tina's complete disconnect with the other player, and the reason she's so boring to use and not represented at tournaments.

So this needs to end; she needs a neutral game, an option, something that creates a bias towards an action and therefore allows reads instead of blind guesses. She doesn't even need a good neutral game, just something that makes her options mean something and allow her to affect the opponent's choices.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Well..... it would be nice if they Gave Tina her Old 4K back.... that nerf in LR was so unnecessary.

I definitely wouldn't say Tina has the worst neutral game in DoA. I think thats a gross overexageration..... I think she just takes some getting used to. I had a similar oppinion about Honoka and Hitomi..... luckily I was wrong about Honoka (I'm still convinced Hitomi's got problems). Tina's not the only one who needs to make risky Guesses in Neutral. Phase 4 is similar.... worse even and the reason for that is is she has Fewer Tools to guess with. Tina's slower but the fact she's got more moves to work with places her above Phase 4. That plus shes far safer (Thank God for that -1 Jab)

I like Guessing with Tina..... but most importantly I like Enforcing Respect with her against Button Mashers (my friends). LoL if I had to describe why I prefer this over a different character who is guaranteed to eventually break through anyone's defense with ease.... I would say it's like "Going Commando" :oops: I just like the Sheer Thrill of guessing Right.... of getting away with stuff that I really shouldn't be getting away with. Is it a formula for winning ? Nope. But landing a Shining Wizard all the way from Down Town is a bigger thrill than Mila's Temple Shot. I fear making Tina better in the neutral game will diminish that Thrill. Tina doesn't need to be better but she does need to be alil scarier.... this works just Fine For Leon.
 

Decadence

New Member
The issue with Tina's neutral game is that every other character has at least one strength or solid option, even the characters with bad neutral games. Tina doesn't have any solid options; she's slow, short ranged, has little advantage on block, her OHs suck, her crushes are limited. Every one of Tina's options is basically stuffed by pushing buttons.
Plenty of characters can go for risky options, or have limited options, but Tina has no real options; it's a complete guess because nothing she does limits the opponent's choices. That's why I brought up paper, rock, scissors, there's no real strength to any of them because they're all equal (equally bad, in Tina's case).
An unbalanced choice doesn't mean you pick the strongest option all the time, but it means that your actions are weighted by likelihood, and that means a read, not a guess.

I think you misunderstand though. I'm not advocating that Tina has a good neutral game; her damage output would be OP if she was good at getting in. I'm simply stating she needs any neutral game. Something that means she properly interacts with other characters and therefore steps away from rolling a dice and into actual strategy. Even the characters with bad neutral games have more involvement than Tina.

For example, with Nyotengu, her neutral game is pretty bad; she's slow, and has way too much reliance on highs, with her Dance of Hiten only being available on hit, not block. Despite her awesome frame advantage on hit and colossal reach, (and a faster OH than Tina!) she struggles in the neutral game. Thing is, she has some solid options. Because these exist, the threat of them will affect her opponent's options, and she can make an educated read in a neutral game situation. She's at a disadvantage, sure, but her out is through strategy, not blind luck.

As for liking Tina for the 'thrill' of guessing right and landing an unlikely move, it's a little irrelevant; this option remains available to every character. Everyone has some stupid move that's a hail mary, that feels awesome when it lands against all logic, Tina doesn't need to remain min-maxed to keep that. The Shining Wizard is actually a solid mixup though (if you can actually get your opponent off you to start a run). You want satisfying, land an aborted Hammer JOS/Sky Twister Press into a Dragon Suplex/Reverse MDT. Now that's a much more unlikely situation, and so much more awesome.
 
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UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Grapplers are designed this way because that's how they were intended to play. Tina's average neutral is the product of changes starting from DOA5. Grapplers can still kill with less number of guesses/choices.

I feel that she could get improved but her gameplan/meta will stay the same.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
@Decadence
I sort of have to agree with UncleKitchener.

As for Tina's Neutral Game.... she does have one good move. Blocking ;). The idea is her and her 4 Friends were given faster throws to reinforce Guarding. Also Every successful Blocked Attack (Except in the case of certain matchups) Places Tina at advantage. Which isn't bad at all because unlike 2D Games.... 3D Games don't let score a Big Combo just by going for the Shins. So she doesn't even have to Block Lows.... hence the importance of one of her Best tools (which she shares with La Mariposa) :4::K:. A quick low crush (atleast in my oppinion... shes better at then some of my back ups). I didn't use to use it that much before but since I'm working on my Spacing I now see its Value.

Its difficult to explain but Tina's struggles is sort of what makes her fun to play. Thats just her Style.... its guess work and its fun..... sometimes. Giving her something better she can latch on to in the Neutral Game is going to have an negative effect on that particular feeling of playing her.

Seriously though... shes not that bad (could use some changes though. )
 

Decadence

New Member
You both say this, but none of the other grapplers have the same disconnect Tina has, and none of them has zero neutral game.
Bass has reach and frame advantage, Bayman has great OHs and fantastic crushes, including Tank Wheel, Lisa has great crushes, colossal reach and good OHs, etc.
Blocking isn't a solution; defence is considerably weaker than offence in DoA. She doesn't get advantage from it, the frames are entirely dependant on what your attacker chooses to use.
As for 4K, it's greatly unsafe, and leaves you BT. Unsafe and BT is a really bad situation because your only defence is a predictable backdash. You also mention that it's a low crush, immediately after saying lows are nothing to worry about...
Again though, you're missing my point. I've never claimed Tina is bad, she's not. Her problem is that her min-max stats leave her broken and disconnected from the fight with a metagame that is simply 'guess right'.

Struggle isn't my complaint; I struggle more with Nyotengu, an objectively worse character, but I feel far more engaged doing so because I'm part of the game. I'd rather lose an educated read than win a blind guess, because the outcome is down to interplay between me and my opponent and not fluke. Playing Tina feels like playing against the AI too frequently because success is too arbitrary.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
You both say this, but none of the other grapplers have the same disconnect Tina has, and none of them has zero neutral game.
Bass has reach and frame advantage, Bayman has great OHs and fantastic crushes, including Tank Wheel, Lisa has great crushes, colossal reach and good OHs, etc.
Blocking isn't a solution; defence is considerably weaker than offence in DoA. She doesn't get advantage from it, the frames are entirely dependant on what your attacker chooses to use.
Well Yeah... Reacting to that stuff is kinda fun. Tina needs her own gimmick...... just not in the neutral game. Kinda like Eliot. Come On.... embrace the Block Button. Its awesome.

As for 4K, it's greatly unsafe, and leaves you BT. Unsafe and BT is a really bad situation because your only defence is a predictable backdash. You also mention that it's a low crush, immediately after saying lows are nothing to worry about...
Again though, you're missing my point. I've never claimed Tina is bad, she's not. Her problem is that her min-max stats leave her broken and disconnected from the fight with a metagame that is simply 'guess right'.

:4::K: is only -5 :eek: only 4 Characters can punish it. And yeah you don't have to worry about lows but getting hit by them Constantly is REALLY ANNOYING..... but thats just me.... some people will just ignore them and others will risk it all just to deal with. I'm of the latter. Sometimed I go back and crush with :4::P+K: instead. Thats just how my Tina rolls.

Struggle isn't my complaint; I struggle more with Nyotengu, an objectively worse character, but I feel far more engaged doing so because I'm part of the game. I'd rather lose an educated read than win a blind guess, because the outcome is down to interplay between me and my opponent and not fluke. Playing Tina feels like playing against the AI too frequently because success is too arbitrary.

You're Right... Its significantly much more Satisfying Playing with Nyotengu.... now theres a character I actually respect. :) She Can Squeeze my Damage and Fear out if her opponents from Guessing.... her Throws aren't arbitrary and redundant (seriously, what the hell is Tina's :426::F: good for anyway.... useless !!!) And they compliment the environment rather nicely. I love Nyotengu..... give her a Backturned Throw and she's perfect !!! :)

Anyway I think I'm starting to narrow down on what you're trying to say.... I'm just confused about what it is you want from Tina ?
 

Decadence

New Member
Blocking isn't a choice with Tina, it's something you are simply forced to do. Any given fight using her is 90% blocking and the other 10% is throwing out the mandatory wild guess unless your opponent stupidly does something punishable.
-4 on block may not be punishable from the front when blocking is an option, but it sure as hell is when you end it BT. Even without being punishable, -4 to a slow character with no neutral game options is a waste of time. It's like Tina's 1P; sure, it can be used, and will hit sometimes, but it doesn't get you anywhere even when it works.
What I want from Tina is a connection to the game, a reason to do, well, anything. When playing her, her options for anything other than damage and combos are so awful that it doesn't matter what you throw out. And if it doesn't matter, then there's no real strategy, and you may as well be playing against the AI. So many times playing Tina I've realised that I just use moves on a whim because the differences in her tools matter so little and in the end it's boring. Even with a worse character like Nyo, the difference of making choices for solid reasons is like night and day.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Hmmmmmm. I'm sorry I can't agree with that. I play my Tina very deliberately using key moves in specific situation against specific matchups.

Hell most recently I've begun encoperating Basic Poking into playstyle (Thank You Ayane)... a -1 Jab on block is just too good to ignore (Doesn't work against Mila for some reason). I play My Tina deliberately.... I don't make wild guesses because there actually is difference between which moves you decide to respond with. Still theres a bunch of useless clutter in her list of moves.... like :6::K: and :8::K:..... her :4::6::h: is the one that really piss me off.
 

Decadence

New Member
And I guarantee that the optimum strategy for every one of your deliberate actions is to just keep pressing buttons, unless you'd care to offer some solid examples?
Honestly, her jab's not great. Compared to the advantage characters like Bass and Nyo get for using anything, -1 isn't really much of a boon, particularly when playing a character who starts a frame to two slower than the average. Most characters are blocking that jab and are still getting to active frames before you.

Perhaps you'd care to offer an alternative suggestion that explains why Tina has been pretty much dead for a long time? You barely, if ever, see her in tournaments, few people use her online, and this discussion is the most active her board's been in years. Actual years.

She's not bottom tier, she's not technically difficult to play (actually one of the easier characters). An online search of fan material of her, safe for work and not, shows she's a popular enough character. She used to see a lot of use, way back in vanilla tourneys/online, and she's not been greatly nerfed or changed capabilities.

Why then has she pretty much been dropped by the community?
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
I don't know.... because she's not flashy ?

LoL... or maybe its her Japanese that puts people off. It could be any number of reasons. We won't know unless they say something.
 

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
There are definitely more Tinas than there are Bass players out there so I don't see where the negativity is coming from. People are not dedicating themselves to characters anymore.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
So rather than heading into Training Mode and doing a boring Battery Of Tests I figured I would just pick vs. Mode and Test :6::4::6::H+P+K: in much less controlled enviroments..... this to test the moves Practicality.

I notice something when I used this on Bass. After :6::6::K: on CL3....:6::4::6::H+P+K: doesn't give Tina anything new however Bass is also one of the character's who's Hurt Box is big enough to use this Taunt after a Critical Burst..... and thats where things get interesting.... the Move seems like its about to whiff..... but it will Connect. This delayed effect gives Tina more Airtime. And allows her to perform :6::P::P::6::K: into :4::F:. Which isn't possible with Tina's dedicated Launchers.

So uhm yeah..... thats some nice extra damage.

Another character with a Gigantic Hurtbox big enough for :6::4::6::H+P+K: is none other than :jacky:..... I honestly don't get why Jacky's Hurtbox is so huge. Theres actually bunch of Combos that work on him but not on lighter characters simply because of his Hurtbox.

This type of thing probably needs its Own Thread .
 
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