DOA6 Story Discussion

[Juihau]

Probably my only real complaint about them was the massive retcon they did with their friendship by having them meet for the first time (the prior games implied that they were BFFs since at least the fifth tournament).

Not really much of a retcon... The Xtreme games' canon status has always been dubious at best, and tag interactions in 5LR should definitely be taken with a grain of salt, since otherwise you're stuck trying to explain nonsense like this.

 

[otnesse]

Not really much of a retcon... The Xtreme games' canon status has always been dubious at best, and tag interactions in 5LR should definitely be taken with a grain of salt, since otherwise you're stuck trying to explain nonsense like this.

DOAX3 might have been dubious canon, but DOAXBV and DOAX2 most certainly were canon (don't forget, DOAXBV is pretty much the reason why Lisa and to a certain extent Niki are even characters in the series at all, and aside from that, Zack's ending in DOA3 practically foreshadowed that game. Also, two of DOA4's endings foreshadowed DOAX2 as well. Zack's ending's one of them obviously, but there's also Kasumi's ending as well, as when she wakes up from her mermaid nightmare, she's in the Gemstone Reef Suite from Xtreme 2).

As far as your point about Ein and Hayate coexisting in DOA5LR and DOA5U, simple: Gameplay and Story Segregation. It's the same thing as, say, Broly pulling "Risking it All for a Friend" for Kakarot in Burst Limit, or how Budokai Tenkaichi 2 has you being required to actually WIN several of the fights in most cases despite actually losing to your opponents canonically (probably the only exceptions being the branching out story arcs for Fateful Brothers, Beautiful Treachery, and Destined Rivals, probably also Master Roshi fighting against Meta-Cooler in the Return of Cooler saga.). Besides, 5U/5LR were the games that Marie Rose and Honoka debuted in, so they're canon by default.

 

[Juihau]

As far as your point about Ein and Hayate coexisting in DOA5LR and DOA5U, simple: Gameplay and Story Segregation. It's the same thing as, say, Broly pulling "Risking it All for a Friend" for Kakarot in Burst Limit

I don't think you quite understood. It's not just that you can use them in a tag team, but that they have a specific intro and outro made for them, just like Marie and Honoka do. You don't just get the generic ones like if you pair together most characters. Because of that, and other pairings given specific interactions that make no canonical sense (Kasumi and Phase 4, for example), tag interactions really aren't a good measure of what is and isn't canon.

Besides, 5U/5LR were the games that Marie Rose and Honoka debuted in, so they're canon by default.

5 is canon. Far as I'm aware, nothing from 5U or LR specifically actually "happened" in 6. The only exception I can think of is Honoka's presence, as she did enter the 5th tournament, but she was disqualified before she fought any of the playable characters, so even that is kind of ehh...

 

[otnesse]

I don't think you quite understood. It's not just that you can use them in a tag team, but that they have a specific intro and outro made for them, just like Marie and Honoka do. You don't just get the generic ones like if you pair together most characters. Because of that, and other pairings given specific interactions that make no canonical sense (Kasumi and Phase 4, for example), tag interactions really aren't a good measure of what is and isn't canon.


5 is canon. Far as I'm aware, nothing from 5U or LR specifically actually "happened" in 6. The only exception I can think of is Honoka's presence, as she did enter the 5th tournament, but she was disqualified before she fought any of the playable characters, so even that is kind of ehh...

That's why I specifically said Gameplay and Story Segregation and made sure I referenced how you can have Broly undergo a "Risking it All for a Friend" scene for Goku in Burst Limit, and that was despite the fact that canonically (well, kind of, since Broly's a movie character, and the game was released long before Battle of Gods was an idea, let alone Dragon Ball Super and its rewriting of the character), Broly utterly hates his guts and wouldn't even stomach risking his life by taking an attack Piccolo-style to save his sworn archnemesis. This is what I mean:

And just as an FYI, while you might have a point regarding Phase 4 and Kasumi, the problem is that both Honoka and Marie Rose had debuted together in those games, and aside from that, the tag teams also included some stuff that WAS ultimately confirmed to be canon (case in point, Raidou and Honoka's tag team outro heavily implied that Honoka's his daughter, and Marie Rose's tag team interaction in DOA5LR pretty much confirmed that Marie Rose was Helena's servant [no, "Wicked L'il Servant" wasn't confirmation to her ties to Helena, since assuming it did match and wasn't just a title, it could have just as easily implied she was Donovan's Servant or Miyako's Servant, since it was never stated WHO she served], which IS canon. Heck, Nyotengu's rivalry with Ryu was first hinted at with the Tag Team stuff as well.). Sure, some tag team stuff might not necessarily be canon (it's extremely unlikely Helena and Christie would actually be a tag team), but I'm pretty sure most of the Tag Team stuff was canon. And if DOA5U and DOA5LR debuted those characters, they're canon, period, no exceptions. Otherwise, why even bother debuting them? Not like they can't wait until DOA6 or even a new Xtreme game to debut them.

Besides DOAXVV already made it pretty clear that Honoka and Marie Rose were BFFs anyways, and that game definitely was canon (if DOAXBV and DOAX2 can be counted as canon thanks to Lisa debuting in the former and the latter being hinted at in two of DOA4's endings, DOAXVV most certainly can be counted as canon).

 

[Dionysus]

Canon is whatever parts of the game TN decides is canon.

 

[otnesse]

Canon is whatever parts of the game TN decides is canon.

No, Canon is continuity. It is not simply something one decides willy nilly, even if that someone is the guys who created it. Otherwise, would you say Kasumi's canonically a boy if Team Ninja decided to out of the blue change her gender?

Besides, I've already seen far too many instances in Pokémon, Star Wars (both under George Lucas and under Disney), and Metal Gear where things get retconned the heck out of the story for no real reason other than the writers just felt like it with no rhyme or reason.

 

[Dionysus]

They have already extensively retconned the story in Dimensions.

 

[otnesse]

They have already extensively retconned the story in Dimensions.

Not really. Probably the only real retcon was Genra being revealed to have been evil from the start and maybe Kasumi having some help in defeating Raidou. Everything else was largely as is.

And I'm pretty sure the DOAX games weren't retconned, since Lisa's still in the series.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Itagaki stated that each of the DOAXes were a dream of Zack's and not something that actually took place.

 

[Dr PaC]

Itagaki stated that each of the DOAXes were a dream of Zack's and not something that actually took place.

Wait.......wha??? And here I thought DOAX has always been canon....in it's own weird, strange way.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Yeah, Itagaki had said that Zack's ending in DOA3 was what he wanted to do with the money (hit up Vegas) as he said in the finals against Gen Fu. Gen Fu won the tournament though and was able to afford Mei Lin's operation and is the reason he didn't compete in the DOA4 (and 5 and 6) tournament.

I believe it was retconned in Dimensions that Zack won the finals, but lost all his money in Vegas anyways.

 

[otnesse]

Itagaki stated that each of the DOAXes were a dream of Zack's and not something that actually took place.

So, wait, how on earth does Lisa exist in the first place, or for that matter, how on earth did Kasumi end up at that hotel room for Xtreme 2 in her DOA4 ending? To say little about Niki. Those games had to have happen in order for those bits to even occur at all, for some characters to exist. If the games aren't canon, if they're all just a dream, then Lisa and Niki can't exist at all.

 

[Matt Ponton]

So, wait, how on earth does Lisa exist in the first place

Just because it's where she was first seen doesn't mean she never existed in the DOA Universe.

As for "making sense with the other games", you guys give too much credit to Itagaki for caring about story. I mean, the man wanted to start DOA5 off with Ayane killing Miyako. There's no "master plan" with him. It's just he wanted to make a game that would sell. Just like the reason he came up with DOA in the first place: Business is failing, I need to make a game that sells, what's selling in arcades right now, ah Virtua Fighter, let's make the same game but with tits, boom, profit. Heck, Christie wasn't even decided to be the assassin of Maria Douglas until Dead or Alive 4 yet was introduced in Dead or Alive 3. :-/

 

[otnesse]

Just because it's where she was first seen doesn't mean she never existed in the DOA Universe.

As for "making sense with the other games", you guys give too much credit to Itagaki for caring about story. I mean, the man wanted to start DOA5 off with Ayane killing Miyako. There's no "master plan" with him. It's just he wanted to make a game that would sell. Just like the reason he came up with DOA in the first place: Business is failing, I need to make a game that sells, what's selling in arcades right now, ah Virtua Fighter, let's make the same game but with tits, boom, profit. Heck, Christie wasn't even decided to be the assassin of Maria Douglas until Dead or Alive 4 yet was introduced in Dead or Alive 3. :-/

Okay, I know Ayane made Kasumi swear to let her deal with Miyako when they confront her, but I don't think it actually said she actually did kill her. The bit of the story he did reveal indicated she decapitated a footsoldier and merely revealed to Kasumi their village's destruction, after Kasumi assumed Ayane arrived in order to "finish the job" with Kasumi, and then she requested an alliance. And just because she voiced that intention doesn't necessarily mean they're going to go through with it. It was heavily implied in Snake Eater that EVA was going to use her Kiss of Death to kill Volgin, for example, yet she ultimately doesn't (not for a lack of trying on her part, though).

As far as your point about Lisa, maybe so, but if her debut game was non-canon, that essentially means Lisa herself is non-canon as well, since she originated from that game. That's the problem. It's like saying, for example, that Chris Jenner's canon even when the game in the Metal Gear series that she hailed from, Ghost Babel, is explicitly non-canon.

Either way, he certainly placed a lot more thought into his storyline than Hideo Kojima did with Metal Gear.

 

[deathofaninja]

Just because it's where she was first seen doesn't mean she never existed in the DOA Universe.

As for "making sense with the other games", you guys give too much credit to Itagaki for caring about story. I mean, the man wanted to start DOA5 off with Ayane killing Miyako. There's no "master plan" with him. It's just he wanted to make a game that would sell. Just like the reason he came up with DOA in the first place: Business is failing, I need to make a game that sells, what's selling in arcades right now, ah Virtua Fighter, let's make the same game but with tits, boom, profit. Heck, Christie wasn't even decided to be the assassin of Maria Douglas until Dead or Alive 4 yet was introduced in Dead or Alive 3. :-/

I didn't get that impression that Itagaki didn't care about the story when I was watching DOA2: Ultimate launch on my XBOX. My impression of him was that he definitely cared about the story and wanted more but couldn't fit in the time.

Since we are quoting Itagaki he said they were like his daughters. I'm trying to retrieve my memory pertaining to this line where Itagaki says that DOAX was just a dream of Zack. It's almost time to view my Itagaki interview collection.

It was a sink or swim situation... and you couldn't sink if you wanted to with titties like that.

Part of the fun with Maria Douglas being assassinated is you had to guess who it was. For a long time my little kid brother thought Ayane did it. XD

 

[P2p1mbs]

Itagaki stated that each of the DOAXes were a dream of Zack's and not something that actually took place.

Does that still apply even when he's not involved in the series anymore? Especially with DOAX3 which was made long after he left.

That does make sense though, i haven't paid any attention to the DOAX3 story but I am sure the events of 6 proves that game non canon (such as how Marie, Honoka amd Nyotengu first meet everyone in 6 when they probably interacted with some of the girls in X3).

 

[Matt Ponton]

Does that still apply even when he's not involved in the series anymore? Especially with DOAX3 which was made long after he left.

I mean, it all depends on who'd you claim the authority is on canon. Itagaki at the time obviously was the final say on story, but now the story is done by different writers. I'd say at the very least, the first and Second DOAX aren't canon, and it'd be reasonable to assume that the X3 and VV stuff isn't as well. Though, the X series might have its own canon between them, as if they were just alternate universes.

Next we'll be talking about Earth 52 or some other number to describe what falls into or out of canon.

One would assume the retcons in DOAD are the new canon, but I heard even the Japanese weren't a fan of them so I can't say if I'd count it as canon myself or not. Well, I can, and I'd like to prefer to leave it as non canon for most of its story. There are some good parts in it, but all the retcons are what I'd omit, personally.

 

[otnesse]

I mean, it all depends on who'd you claim the authority is on canon. Itagaki at the time obviously was the final say on story, but now the story is done by different writers. I'd say at the very least, the first and Second DOAX aren't canon, and it'd be reasonable to assume that the X3 and VV stuff isn't as well. Though, the X series might have its own canon between them, as if they were just alternate universes.

Next we'll be talking about Earth 52 or some other number to describe what falls into or out of canon.

One would assume the retcons in DOAD are the new canon, but I heard even the Japanese weren't a fan of them so I can't say if I'd count it as canon myself or not. Well, I can, and I'd like to prefer to leave it as non canon for most of its story. There are some good parts in it, but all the retcons are what I'd omit, personally.

Well, if the Library section of DOA6 is of any indication, Genra being evil from the start per DOAD may have been re-retconned (since the Library indicated that he was brainwashed like in DOA3 originally).

I'm hesitant to say the first DOAX is non-canon, regardless of whether Itagaki says it or not, since it did formally introduce Lisa and Niki, who did appear in later games, the former as an official fighter, and considering they actually teased DOAX2 in two of DOA4's endings (specifically, Zack and Kasumi's respective endings), it's extremely unlikely that's non-canon as well. If they were truly non-canon, Lisa and Niki would have gotten the same treatment that Chris Jenner, Black Chamber, Wiseman, and the like got in Metal Gear Solid overall, not even be alluded to at all, let alone have any appearances. Or for that matter, how all the Dragon Ball movies are non-canon and aren't alluded to at all save for Dead Zone (due to Garlic Jr. having a saga dedicated to him later on that has direct references to that movie, not to mention Super directly referencing Maron, a figure from that saga, later on in at least the anime version), and possibly Tree of Might (due to Icarus frequently appearing in the anime after debuting in that movie) and Cooler's Revenge (due to Cooler's cameo in GT, though that's ambiguous, especially when GT itself has very shaky canon even without Super.).

DOAX3's in the gray area, especially when DOAXVV has Honoka specifically mentioning winning a vacation ticket in a raffle again, referring to how she earlier arrived at Zack Island in DOAX3. Besides, unlike prior DOAX games where the girls clearly interact with each other outside of volleyball or minigames either regarding their opening scenes when a partner is selected or otherwise the be friendly gravures, DOAX3 barely even has the girls interacting with each other at all barring certain matches, so it's pretty much left ambiguous as to whether any of them actually interacted at all during their vacation. Heck, some of the cutscenes, namely the beginning and ending of each girl's vacation, also imply they may have literally been alone during the vacation barring maybe the Owner.

Does that still apply even when he's not involved in the series anymore? Especially with DOAX3 which was made long after he left.

That does make sense though, i haven't paid any attention to the DOAX3 story but I am sure the events of 6 proves that game non canon (such as how Marie, Honoka amd Nyotengu first meet everyone in 6 when they probably interacted with some of the girls in X3).

Well, to be fair, just going by the actual cutscenes, it's left ambiguous as to whether the girls ever actually interact with each other at all in that game. Let's not forget, unlike in DOAX1 or DOAX2, which not only had Be Friendly gravures where the girls explicitly interact with each other, but choosing a partner actually has a cutscene where they talk to each other (case in point, the scene where Lisa teases Helena about Zack having romances in the deepest parts of space in reference to Helena's invite in DOAX2 involving bringing peace to the galaxy via DOATEC if you either choose Helena or Lisa as your partner and you're playing as vice versa.), DOAX3 actually lacks any character interactions between the girls in gravures, heck, even any cutscenes where the girls interact if you choose them as a partner. In fact, the closest thing to their having any interactions is during gameplay regarding various minigames. And that's not even getting into how the opening and endings for each of the girls heavily implied that, barring the Owner obviously, they're completely alone during that vacation (for example, Marie Rose is hesitant to leave Helena after she dismissed her from her duties, and Ayane in her ending makes very clear she could not find ANY trace of Kasumi on the island despite the intel.).

Not to say I even approve of DOAX3 as being canon, especially when DOAX3 has many problems of its own (for starters, aside from gutting a lot of stuff from past Xtreme games, it also made some characters regress in development, like for example Ayane. I thought she buried the hatchet with Kasumi, so why the heck would she still be trying to hunt Kasumi down in that game, even if it WAS just an excuse to take a vacation?). But nevertheless, you'd need more than that to claim it's non-canon. Now, if DOAX3 had actual character interactions BESIDES gameplay-related like be friendly gravures and/or any cutscenes that play when choosing a partner, then you might be on to something.

 

[P2p1mbs]

Well, if the Library section of DOA6 is of any indication, Genra being evil from the start per DOAD may have been re-retconned (since the Library indicated that he was brainwashed like in DOA3 originally).

I'm hesitant to say the first DOAX is non-canon, regardless of whether Itagaki says it or not, since it did formally introduce Lisa and Niki, who did appear in later games, the former as an official fighter, and considering they actually teased DOAX2 in two of DOA4's endings (specifically, Zack and Kasumi's respective endings), it's extremely unlikely that's non-canon as well. If they were truly non-canon, Lisa and Niki would have gotten the same treatment that Chris Jenner, Black Chamber, Wiseman, and the like got in Metal Gear Solid overall, not even be alluded to at all, let alone have any appearances. Or for that matter, how all the Dragon Ball movies are non-canon and aren't alluded to at all save for Dead Zone (due to Garlic Jr. having a saga dedicated to him later on that has direct references to that movie, not to mention Super directly referencing Maron, a figure from that saga, later on in at least the anime version), and possibly Tree of Might (due to Icarus frequently appearing in the anime after debuting in that movie) and Cooler's Revenge (due to Cooler's cameo in GT, though that's ambiguous, especially when GT itself has very shaky canon even without Super.).

DOAX3's in the gray area, especially when DOAXVV has Honoka specifically mentioning winning a vacation ticket in a raffle again, referring to how she earlier arrived at Zack Island in DOAX3. Besides, unlike prior DOAX games where the girls clearly interact with each other outside of volleyball or minigames either regarding their opening scenes when a partner is selected or otherwise the be friendly gravures, DOAX3 barely even has the girls interacting with each other at all barring certain matches, so it's pretty much left ambiguous as to whether any of them actually interacted at all during their vacation. Heck, some of the cutscenes, namely the beginning and ending of each girl's vacation, also imply they may have literally been alone during the vacation barring maybe the Owner.



Well, to be fair, just going by the actual cutscenes, it's left ambiguous as to whether the girls ever actually interact with each other at all in that game. Let's not forget, unlike in DOAX1 or DOAX2, which not only had Be Friendly gravures where the girls explicitly interact with each other, but choosing a partner actually has a cutscene where they talk to each other (case in point, the scene where Lisa teases Helena about Zack having romances in the deepest parts of space in reference to Helena's invite in DOAX2 involving bringing peace to the galaxy via DOATEC if you either choose Helena or Lisa as your partner and you're playing as vice versa.), DOAX3 actually lacks any character interactions between the girls in gravures, heck, even any cutscenes where the girls interact if you choose them as a partner. In fact, the closest thing to their having any interactions is during gameplay regarding various minigames. And that's not even getting into how the opening and endings for each of the girls heavily implied that, barring the Owner obviously, they're completely alone during that vacation (for example, Marie Rose is hesitant to leave Helena after she dismissed her from her duties, and Ayane in her ending makes very clear she could not find ANY trace of Kasumi on the island despite the intel.).

Not to say I even approve of DOAX3 as being canon, especially when DOAX3 has many problems of its own (for starters, aside from gutting a lot of stuff from past Xtreme games, it also made some characters regress in development, like for example Ayane. I thought she buried the hatchet with Kasumi, so why the heck would she still be trying to hunt Kasumi down in that game, even if it WAS just an excuse to take a vacation?). But nevertheless, you'd need more than that to claim it's non-canon. Now, if DOAX3 had actual character interactions BESIDES gameplay-related like be friendly gravures and/or any cutscenes that play when choosing a partner, then you might be on to something.

Can you summarize this post in bullet points?

 

[otnesse]

Can you summarize this post in bullet points?

Fine:

*Well, to be fair, just going by the actual cutscenes, it's left ambiguous as to whether the girls ever actually interact with each other at all in that game.

*Let's not forget, unlike in DOAX1 or DOAX2, which not only had Be Friendly gravures where the girls explicitly interact with each other, but choosing a partner actually has a cutscene where they talk to each other (case in point, the scene where Lisa teases Helena about Zack having romances in the deepest parts of space in reference to Helena's invite in DOAX2 involving bringing peace to the galaxy via DOATEC if you either choose Helena or Lisa as your partner and you're playing as vice versa.), DOAX3 actually lacks any character interactions between the girls in gravures, heck, even any cutscenes where the girls interact if you choose them as a partner. In fact, the closest thing to their having any interactions is during gameplay regarding various minigames.

*And that's not even getting into how the opening and endings for each of the girls heavily implied that, barring the Owner obviously, they're completely alone during that vacation (for example, Marie Rose is hesitant to leave Helena after she dismissed her from her duties, and Ayane in her ending makes very clear she could not find ANY trace of Kasumi on the island despite the intel.).

*Not to say I even approve of DOAX3 as being canon, especially when DOAX3 has many problems of its own (for starters, aside from gutting a lot of stuff from past Xtreme games, it also made some characters regress in development, like for example Ayane. I thought she buried the hatchet with Kasumi, so why the heck would she still be trying to hunt Kasumi down in that game, even if it WAS just an excuse to take a vacation?). But nevertheless, you'd need more than that to claim it's non-canon. Now, if DOAX3 had actual character interactions BESIDES gameplay-related like be friendly gravures and/or any cutscenes that play when choosing a partner, then you might be on to something.

Hope that's bullet pointed enough for you.