Easily Accessible, yet Hard to Master!

[virtuaPAI]

Fighters now a day are trying to achieve such a status, while the Dead or Alive(DOA) series have been leading the pack from the very beginning. Many players from the fighting game community have confused this direct accessibility with the game being a scrub fest, in which a lower leveled player will be able to beat a more skilled player..eg. A beginner will be able to defeat an average player, an average player will be able to defeat a high level player. This is a total fallacy, and have been proven to be false.
As it stands, those players who have risen to the top(high level players) have stayed at the top, and were not beaten by those players who are of lesser skill to them. The same is true to those players who are one notch below them, who constantly defeat average players, and average players to beginners.

In the creation of Dead or Alive series as a whole, Itagaki took the best parts of Virtua Fighter(VF), while continuously making the game more accessible. He likened Virtua fighter to a traditional sushi bar, while Dead or alive was a sushi bar with beautiful women on roller skates. In other words, It has a similar foundation to that of Virtua fighter, but high octane. This translate to a game that is fast, furious, brutal, deep as well as being very accessible. This is something that fighters as a whole are trying to achieve.

VF as a series have been very brilliant in the way it engages players in both the defensive and offensive play styles it present. There is no surprise in DOA taking this into its own and putting a “twist” on it. This “twist” the fighting game community scoffed at, yet you can see VF (even Tekken and Soul Calibur to an extent) implementing many of these ideas. Vf3 adding catch throws, in VF4, the series added more reversal techniques for each character, throws having execution frames (8 frames, which is the same amount of frames as DOA's most damaging throws in both doa2 and doa3), More normal attack launchers, staggers playing a bigger part in game, tech-rolling mechanics. All in all, Vf4 plays a lot more like a Doa game (which is the total opposite of the original doa playing like Vf2). VF5 vanilla went even further and added offensive Evade to defensive evade, which is eerily similar to the concept of Doa's offensive/defensive Holds. Not only that, the Free step system in Doa3 was used both for Defensive and offensive purposes. It doesn't end with this, VF has also implemented a doa style wall bounce, wall slump stun, when hit while back dashing results in a stagger, throws are are now done doa style, with standing throws ending in either :4 or :6, and Low throws using the +:g (+ with Doa) format and ending with either :1 or :3. With the overall game being tweaked to be accessible.

Dead or Alive cannot be that bad, if the highest acclaimed fighter has been borrowing from it for the past 15 years. Please do not get me wrong, I am not bashing VF, or trying to make it look worthless...It's a brilliant fighter and the Doa series owe its creation to it. I just want you the Doa community to realize what a great game we have. Despite all the problems we may see in it, It may not be problems when other fighters are implementing what we have taken advantage of for years.




To be Cont.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Cont.

We have had the battles between the offline and online, Doa3 vs Doa4, Doa4.0 vs Doa4.1, and I feel that we have wasted precious time and energy, but it was needed. If you do not realize or not, our trials and tribulations have helped the whole Fighting game community (FGC). We have had many people looking in and seeing what our community has done, and for the most part, are not repeating the mistakes that we have made. For this we should be proud, we were the first to have a serious online scene with WCG Support, as well as being the first to have sponsored/televised events, We have shown that we have a dedicated community, shown that our game is just as challenging as any other 3d fighter, and shown the world during Evo that we are bad ass mother fuckers. Overall, We are the underdogs that succeeded with many things. With this said, we can put all of that behind us, and enjoy all of the possibilities that are available to us.

Is Doa4 the perfect 3D fighter? No, but is it pretty damn close? Yes. To put all of the said problems in perspective; Doa3.1 was a great game that did many things right, as well as many things wrong. Doa4.1 Does a few things wrong while getting many things right. I know players were looking forward to the 2in1's on crouched opponents and loved how it made each character individuals. However, low offensive holds do the same exact thing(in fact it's more powerful), It catches those characters who are in a low state, and guarantee damage(except if the opponent throws). This differentiate characters due to differing properties, such as ground bounce, leaving opponent in a stagger, wall interaction..etc.

Another problem is guaranteed ground pounce/down attacks that were present in Doa3, This is in Doa4 as well, but it is under bounce attacks. All bounce attacks produce free ground attacks and/or a forced tech-roll...ground game mix-up ala doa3 style (once again the exchange is more powerful than that of regular free ground attack). Another upsetting factor players are having, is the fact that guaranteed damage is no longer possible through wall crumples. With the revamped juggle height, damage from juggles from wall crumple shouldn't be as devastating as it was in doa3. Just for safety precautions, either a Defensive hold, or struggle( Slowescape) would have helped to stop abuse. Both were not needed, and this is a problem Doa5 can fix. However, I can see how they did not want all the environmental interaction to be over powering, thus allowing you to have better defense. Forcing players to use cliffs and slope damage to get high environmental impact.

Another complaint is falls not killing your opponent. This is only partially true. Attacks that knock your opponent over a cliff/slope do not kill your opponent, however, throws, defensive holds and offensive holds do kill your opponent when knocked off a Cliff/slope. I am pretty sure this is put in place due to the the fact that attacks are more commonly used to knock off an opponent than the other methods used.

The Dead or alive series can fix the few problems that it do have, by tweaking the subsystems. Doa4 so far have the best crush system out of all the 3d fighters. With that said, I consider SS attacks crush attacks(because they work more like crush attacks than SS), and they can be improved by allowing them to evade all attacks up to guaranteed throw/attack situations. Defensive hold active window should be shorten to around 12-14 frames with a 16-18 frame recover, giving each respective hold variant 6-7 active frames.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Apparently DOAC felt like it was necessary to clear your posts of this over there.

But one thing I would like to comment on is your paraphrasing of Itagaki's metaphors of VF to DOA. To me, he was saying that the content is still the same at its core, but DOA desides to use more flair and flash. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Yeah, for some reason I cannot post on the forums.

I totally agree. I believe Itagak and his team achieved what the VF team is trying to capture now. If you look at every new version/revision on the series, it is getting closer and closer to Doa.

 

[R4712-VR88]

That post was truth.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Thanks. I have been thinking about this for over a month now. It just boggles my mind why it is acceptable for other fighters to do what doa have been doing for years, yet doa is still frowned upon.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Another complaint is falls not killing your opponent. This is only partially true. Attacks that knock your opponent over a cliff/slope do not kill your opponent, however, throws, defensive holds and offensive holds do kill your opponent when knocked off a Cliff/slope. I am pretty sure this is put in place due to the the fact that attacks are more commonly used to knock off an opponent than the other methods used.

I have to disagree here. It's not throws that kill an opponent on a fall. It's any throw that is touching the opponent as they fall. Basically, you can't die from rolling down stairs or hitting the ground. You only die if the opponent is still throwing you.

This is proven in the slope throws as Tina's boston crab slide will KO, but Ein's slope throw won't kill if the user doesn't finish them off with the kick. Likewise, Bass' slope throw will kill due to the him just running down the stairs and powerbombing you, or Hayabusa's Izuna will kill off a ledge/slope because he's physically drilling you into the ground.

 

[R4712-VR88]

It just boggles my mind why it is acceptable for other fighters to do what doa have been doing for years, yet doa is still frowned upon.

Hey VirtuaPai, why don't you state why you think the rest of the Fighting Game Community still looks down at DOA. To me, it seems the damage has already taken a toll on the series.

- Just like applying for a job or going on a date, your first impression can make a difference. And with DOA and its sex-appeal over the years, people are mislead by this and take the game as some casual game like Mortal Kombat.

- The gameplay is easily accessible like you said, though with this ease of gameplay people will learn about countering and how to use it. Thus people will constantly counter others and those being countered will become mad, ragequit and call the game broken and garbage.

- Bandwagoning also seems to being something that's hurt the series. And with the two examples I stated above, when someone dislikes the game they'll report about their bad experience with it to others and then they'll being to avoid it as well.


To me the big issue is the sex-appeal. With DOA5 possibly approaching us, I'm in complete fear as to what Hayashi will do with the series. If you look at the advertisements for Ninja Gaiden SIGMA 2 and Dead Or Alive: Paradise, you'll see they're both filled with constant sexual-indeuos. With as serious of a game as Ninja Gaiden, why Hayashi went about the "breasts wall" to advertise it is beyond me. There's also that pointless sixaxis feature that they added in SIGMA 2 as well. DOAP's commericals all had something sexual about them with absolutely nothing about the game at all. Basically, Itagaki was finally seeing that there was a serious community about the games gameplay. Now with Itagaki gone I'm absolutely scared to death the series will jump right back into the whole sex-appeal focus that the other games had. We already know that the game is known for its beautiful women and their sexy outfits, so why continue to shove this knowledge into everyone's faces? Hayashi needs to show the actual game and its gameplay as the game's advertisement to get people more interested and serious with the series.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Sex appeal isn't that big of an issue. After all, Chun Li and Mai were showing skin way before DOA came into the picture. In addition, I think Soul Calibur has taken the title of "blatant fanservice" from DOA a long while ago.

- The gameplay is easily accessible like you said, though with this ease of gameplay people will learn about countering and how to use it. Thus people will constantly counter others and those being countered will become mad, ragequit and call the game broken and garbage.

The gameplay is easily accessible, but that's not the problem. The problem is that there isn't anything more to the game outside of the immediate accessiblity. When compared to games like Super Street Fighter IV which has character individuality, wake-up games, spacing, pressuring, mix-up games, shenanigans, and more advanced tactics like # in 1s (different meaning in that community), the DOA series doesn't stack up as well. Not saying that DOA has its own levels of these features, just saying that it is a common perception that the level at which it has these features are far lower than that of other fighting games.

But honestly, arguing theory fighter and semantics doesn't really help anyone. What matters the most is the turnout you have at offline events. Melty Blood and Smash Bros. both proved this. There are still people who hate on both, yet they're still growing because they prove they have people coming down to participate in a tournament on a consistent basis with growing numbers.

 

[R4712-VR88]

You know what's funny? further proves how much SEGA's been taking from DOA.

 

[Baron West]

Why is DOA frowned upon? Most of my friends don't like DOA for two reasons. The first is that the hi-counter holds and throws do much more damage than juggle combos. This is 90% of their problem. The second is that the sidestepping is lacking.

When trying to teach people how to play the main complaint was always "I just did a 7 hit combo, and he did twice as much damage with a reversal? Throws and Reversals are more rewarding than combos? I put in all that effort for the combo, and a simple reversal input does more damage? This game is too scrub friendly man." Then it's "Why is the sidestep in Bloody Roar better than the sidestepping in this game? Come on man, this game is kinda fun, but I need to be able to sidestep." Then people mention the ultra-pneumatic breasts, have a laugh, and switch games.

Personally, I don't care much for Sabaki/Crush attacks. Tech Jumping, Tech Crouching, Swaying and SS moves that beat attacks of a certain hit level work fine for me, because they are intuitive. Getting Crushed/Sabaki'd always throws me off guard, because it's one move magically going through another.

What I like about DOA is that it's easy for a low tier character to beat a top tier character...more so than any other 3-D fighter. That's the beauty of being able to reverse any abusive strike. However the high reversal damage is why so many people don't like DOA, in my experience anyhow.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Depends on which doa you are playing. Doa1 had holds that did less damage than throws and juggles, Doa2 had holds that did as much as throws and juggles, Doa3 holds did less damage than throws and juggles, Doa4 holds do more damage than juggles and throws. However, Hold damage on average is higher than that of other fighters, so I can see why many players do not like them.

It is more on how TN balance the triangle system, than Holds doing a lot of damage. It has shown that Doa3 had the most balanced triangle system out of all the games. Attacks had the most priority(as they should) as in for setups, traps, offense, mixups..etc. Throws followed for proper punishment, with holds used to stop abusive/repetitive situations. This kept things in order, while allowing players to use the triangle system efficiently and effectively.

 

[Baron West]

It was Hardcore. IIRC, on Hi-Counter Kasumi's 33K or 33P juggles max out at maybe 88 points in Hardcore? With the exception of her Mid Kick hold, and Parry Combos, her Hi Counter holds do 87. The complaint was that a reversal, particularly one with an easy input should not lead to more damage than a launcher, and neither should a throw.

Mind you, most of these guys came from TTT backgrounds, where only a select few characters(Kings, Jacks, Ogres) had throws that lead to more damage than combos. Even then, the most damaging juggles where still strike launchers. Getting their life bars decimated by Izuna, UNG, JOC, et cetera was frustrating when they were used to being able to break throws.

Ultimately, any game is fun if there is enough competition, but...when DOA4 was released Tekken 5 was in full effect, as was Soul Calibur III. Even though SCIII was a travesty compared to SCII, dedicated SC players and Tekken players weren't interesting in playing a DOA which was more unfamiliar to them than it's predecessors. The high hold damage which you pointed out, didn't help. I could get people to play DOA2H and DOA3, but not DOA4. Although for what it's worth, I also have a hard time getting TK and SC players to play VF.

 

[LivingShadow]

Here's my views as a relatively new DOA player.

1: Holds
In general it encourages a more defensive play style. In terms of being able to interrupt combos, I like the option; it gives you a reason to stop mid combo and start a different string to mess with them. Also since I come from a Melty background I'm used to high damage reversals: LAs regularly do about 3-4k (my char having one of the most damaging at 7k), shield bunkers leading into oki, H or F-moon shield counters leading to combos. If I get hit by a hold it's nothing but my own fault for being predictable and there's also the option of baiting them.

2: Grabs
Grabs are more important for certain characters in DOA than in most games. It's sort of annoying to get hit by a high damage grab, but strikes should out priority them in DOA so if you read correctly there shouldn't be a problem. At least the Inazuma Drop doesn't lead to 5-way oki.

3: Fanservice
I don't really care, I have a high tolerance for it.

 

[Red dragon]

Let me say this.

People dont know how to appreciate the games that they have now. I have seen a lot of that in central too. Doa is the best, most badass game there is. Period. I've played soul caliber 4, i've played tekken, hell, i went and got street fighter. None of these games compare to the tatics behind doa fighting system. I like doa and soul caliber because you actually have to push a button to block an attack and the game feels more balanced that way. Games that do the whole auto block or hold back to block feels like a pain in the ass. Doa has the tag system, which i love the most. Nothing beats the tag system imo.

As for the community. I think people get bored and like to throw pansy fits over some dumbass and minor things that really shouldnt be whined about. People complained about how this game is dead but no one wants to do anything about it. People complain that the game is cheap only because they are the ones getting owned. People complain that its a button masher only because they lost to an amateur fighter. People complain about the lag because they wanted to download porn while playing online. People complain about wanting a new doa only because games like need for speed or street fighter release a new game every 6 months to one year.

Dont get me wrong, there are good members of the community too.

As for the grab tatics and counters, i agree that grabs are suited for some better than others but i believe that some characters throws should be a bit more powerful than other characters. Example, baymans throws should be a hell lot more powerful than helena's. A big beefed up guy should do more damage in their thows than a skinny white girl. (no pun intended)

Not sure about the counters. Everyone has their up and down about counters. it should be used by everyone.

I never understood the idea behind parries in doa4. I never used them on anyone when i played as a character that can use them. All it does is stun them for a few seconds and its hard to try and time properly. Thats just my opinion. I would be better off trying to throw or attack punish said opponent.

 

[Rikuto]

Mid Parries are not as much about what they can give the defender, but more about what they stop from the attacker.

Less guessing involved.

As for parries in DOA, they can stop all high and mid attacks. I'm sure you can see the use for that.

 

[Red dragon]

your not stopping much. unless you launch them and create some kind of combo. Even then, its still a lot of work for a little result.

doa:d is a waste of money man, you'll never catch me with that game. Not unless there is a way to play it on the computer.

 

[Rikuto]

Ah... if you just look at this on paper, you will never understand.

The setup. I do an attack, any safe attack that is obviously safe, and that even a scrub would understand is safe, and it gets blocked.

90% of players have an inherent twitch reflex afterwards to NOT mix up with a high or a low, but instead to mix up between the two mid attacks. They do this because they want a deep stun, and they dont want to be crushed. They could go low, but only a few characters have a fast enough low that gives them the kind of stun they want. This is an entirely subconcious process and I've been using it to abuse scrubs since the dawn of time.

Only after fighting a parry character who is abusing the hell out of this does a person learn to start using their other options.

By simply using the parry (as bayman), I'm getting a free 20 damage every time muscle memory betrays my opponent.

Is this a tactic that works at higher levels?

Yes and no. It is a tactic that is expected at higher levels, however, and in so doing i can condition my better opponents before I even have to fight them.

 

[Red dragon]

wait a sec, bayman doesnt do parry's, does he?

The parry system is just as risky as using the hold system. Miss and its open season. Both of us know the pro's will man whore any opportunity that is presented before us, espically that kind of opportunity.

The thing is though, i dont see many folks use the parry system. At least not some of the folks i've ran into in the past. I main ayane as most folks know but i play eliot as a secondary. He has parry's but i never see a reason to use them. Back when i first started workin eliot did i try the parry system but you need to be able to keep the stun going and launch them. Im not even sure if they can counter out of stun after said opponent has been parried.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Bayman has parries in DOA4 and DOAD. He's no longer considered a "grappler" in DOAD as he does not have any of the grappler throw speed buffs.