Expert holds?

Dr Sexual

Member
Can somebody with the demo experiment and elaborate on just how much more powerful these are. It seems kind of weird that for most characters these "expert holds" are only applicable to mid attacks...

I mean what happens if your character or playstyle involves heavy use of mid attacks?

Are the hold frames substantially shorter?

This is really the only thing so far that I've felt a little uneasy about so far. Something about potentially heavily punishing the use of specific normals seems a little bit off to me.
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
All I know is expert holds are definitely more powerful. The damage on normal holds have been nerfed a little bit. For more technical details you'll have to wait from Mr. Wah or anyone else more knowledgable.
 

Matt Ponton

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This is really the only thing so far that I've felt a little uneasy about so far. Something about potentially heavily punishing the use of specific normals seems a little bit off to me.

As opposed to holds from the previous Dead or Alive games?
 

virtuaPAI

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The Expert holds do not seem to be anymore damaging than what regular holds used to do in past doa games. Infact, expert holds did 100pts of damage or more in past doa games...far more than what they are currently doing.
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
The Expert holds do not seem to be anymore damaging than what regular holds used to do in past doa games. Infact, expert holds did 100pts of damage or more in past doa games...far more than what they are currently doing.

And that's a good thing right?
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
The Expert holds do not seem to be anymore damaging than what regular holds used to do in past doa games. Infact, expert holds did 100pts of damage or more in past doa games...far more than what they are currently doing.

I think the purpose of expert holds now is to separate unique type holds like Hitomi's mid kick hold was a launcher but was moved to the expert hold and Busa's Izuna being moved to expert holds etc... I'd prefer the 4 point hold system, but I do like the concept they have going on right now.
 

virtuaPAI

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And that's a good thing right?
I do think the lower damage is better.

I think the purpose of expert holds now is to separate unique type holds like Hitomi's mid kick hold was a launcher but was moved to the expert hold and Busa's Izuna being moved to expert holds etc... I'd prefer the 4 point hold system, but I do like the concept they have going on right now.

-The concept do make sense. I wonder what is going to happen to Lei fang, and Bayman. I am also curious to whether or not Leifang and Genfu will get their parries. Also, what about sabakis....so much, so little being answered with this demo. It would have been better if Team Ninja, used 4 different character play styles in the demo to give us a better Idea how the game would stack up.
 

Master_Thespian

Active Member
I do think the lower damage is better.



-The concept do make sense. I wonder what is going to happen to Lei fang, and Bayman. I am also curious to whether or not Leifang and Genfu will get their parries.
I think it's entirely possible that the parries are 9_6_3H, since Hitomi has one mapped to 9H. Doing it that way would let them keep normal holds, advanced holds, and parries on one character if need be.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
I do think the lower damage is better.



-The concept do make sense. I wonder what is going to happen to Lei fang, and Bayman. I am also curious to whether or not Leifang and Genfu will get their parries. Also, what about sabakis....so much, so little being answered with this demo. It would have been better if Team Ninja, used 4 different character play styles in the demo to give us a better Idea how the game would stack up.

Sabaki! Very good point. Another reason why I want Lei Fang to be more like Pai :p Sabaki's need to be for highs and mids and they'll be useful. It would have been nice to see that.

In fact, not just for character playstyles, but it would have been nice to see one of the lesser known characters in the demo to increase their status with players, but really can't complain about that too much.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
The demo is progress from DOA4, but if the final game plays like the demo, it won't have a very long competitive life. Most of the issues competitive players from other fighting games have with the series are still very apparent in the demo.
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
The demo is progress from DOA4, but if the final game plays like the demo, it won't have a very long competitive life. Most of the issues competitive players from other fighting games have with the series are still very apparent in the demo.

Aside from holding in stun and the lack of unholdable strikes/strings (cuz that's all i can think of), what issues are you referring to?
 

Matt Ponton

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The main two things I'd like to see come final release:

  • Command Throw breaks
  • More natural combos or setups
 

ScattereDreams

Well-Known Member
What is Sabaki?

Attacks that have hold/counter properties. More like parries. In DOA4 they only worked against highs and, have to be well timed. Eliot's 7p or, Lei fang's 236p are examples. Those two and, Kokoro were the only ones with sabaki's as far as I know.(thought it was tsubaki?). With counter properties, they can be thrown in start up frames.

I see no reason for them to remove sabaki's; they add more depth to the gameplay.
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
Well if "competitive" players from other games want DOA to play like other franchises they should just stay playing those. DOA has its own style and the demo is progressing a lot from the DOA4 stuff.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Aside from holding in stun and the lack of unholdable strikes/strings (cuz that's all i can think of), what issues are you referring to?

The overall flow of a match, the general lack of deep strategy, and the skewed risk/reward ratio.

- The offensive player is rarely in control.
- Spacing doesn't mean much because even if you make an opponent whiff, they have a 0-frame counter to take care of any whiff punishment you attempt.
- The new sidestep is nice, but if you only get canned attacks from it, that drastically limits the potential.
- Punishment still seems to be throws (primarily), since they are the fastest attacks and unbreakable for the most part. Unless you have a throw that launch (in previous games, most characters don't), you get minimal damage, which means it's not that bad to use unsafe attacks (compared to other fighters).
- When you work hard to open up the opponent, it still seems as though they can counter as soon as you put them in stun. However, there are reports of oddities in this, so we'll have to see how far those oddities goes.
- General lack of movement. Look at pretty much every other 3D fighter and there's a good reason for constant movement of some sort. DOA has no need for this, other than to position yourself better within the stage. There's no advanced movement and due to a lack of spacing, no real need for it.
- Decently fast lows that stun on normal hit. Other 3D fighters have them here and there, but overall most lows that lead to damage are either slow or need to be CH to get the damage. Soul Calibur takes this one step farther by making almost all fast lows negative on hit.

I will say again that this is just the demo, and I still believe there's plenty of time to make this game great (if it isn't already). I'm merely pointing out the flaws that still exist as of the demo, which is at least 3-4 months old (in terms of code).

Well if "competitive" players from other games want DOA to play like other franchises they should just stay playing those. DOA has its own style and the demo is progressing a lot from the DOA4 stuff.

I can understand where you're coming from, and from a casual standpoint I agree. However, I know there are more than a few people who would like DOA5 to make an impact on the competitive scene. Unfortunately, the current size of the competitive DOA community is not large enough to do this alone. Not to mention, most of the competitive DOA players want an improved game comparable to other competitive fighters.
 

ScattereDreams

Well-Known Member
DOA has its own style and the demo is progressing a lot from the DOA4 stuff.

That's a little vague isn't it? Not one mechanic i've seen from DOA4 compliments the DOA5 alpha demo. Guaranteed wall damage? Wasn't in DOA4. Expert holds + 3pt holds? Wasn't in DOA4. True sidestepping? Wasn't in DOA4. Power blows... arguable since it's just enhanced charge attacks that lead to QTE's.
 
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