Hello everyone, I decided to make a thread in regards to Hayabusa's untechable game. Hopefully we can all work together to discover untechables for our favorite super ninja. I also hope our discussions will serve as a frame work for other character's.
What's the big deal about these untechables you might ask?
The recent changes in the 1.03 patch altered the way certain vertical attacks interract with the ground and affect the ground game. For Hayabusa, the final kick in his PP4PK and the final punch of his 6KP strings are such moves.
What is an untechable?
For those who don't know, untechables are juggles that end with a ground hit that forces the opponent to techroll. Similiarly to pseudo force techs, these moves give advantage as the opponent tech rolls which allows the attacker to maintain pressure and remain on the offensive.
So why isn't it just called a pseudo forcetech?
The term "pseudo force tech" actually came from untechables. They are false untechables.The main difference is that untechables cannot be teched period. If the juggle while respecting certain conditions, the opponent is forced to tech by the final hit of the juggle. A pseudo Force Tech however lets the opponent decide to either tech or not. If the opponent techs then slight advantage is given to the attacker as the opponent is still getting up (teching). If the opponent does not tech, then the final hit of the juggle will hit the target and force them up just like an untechable would, in which case massive advantage is given to the attacker.
What are these conditions you speak of?
Well there are... many, just like for pseudo force techs. How much the stun threshold is pushed before launching, the type of launcher used, the untechable string itself, the weight class of the opponent and naturally, the surface the opponent will tech roll on (it must be PERFECTLY flat). Any miscalculation in this equation will result in three possible scenarios:
1. The opponent falls to the ground way before the untechable move or string connects, which results in not only loss of damage but possibly disavantage for you the attacker.
2. The opponent falls to the ground slitghly before the untechable move or string *completely* connects. This isn't too bad since the untechable actually becomes an pseudo force tech. The attacker will still have advantage over his teching opponent, just not as much as if the true untechable connected.
3. The move or string connects completely *before* the opponent was about to hit the ground. This results in a regular juggle, meaning your string completely hit the opponent while he was in the air. Now you lost your momentum and have to deal with your opponents get up kicks.
One might think that this is somewhat complicated, but let me assure you, with a little muscle memory (know yourself), observation (know your surroundings) and character knowledge (know how fat your opponent is), untechables are quite doable.
Sounds fancy but why should I do these again?
Simple, frame advantage! Just like pseudo force techs, untehcables give you advantage. But only untechables can give you INSANE amounts of advantage. On average, pseudo Force Techs give +4/+5 frame advantage. Currently, hayabusa's untechable gives him +20/+25. That's more than a lot of his GB and frame traps... combined! Not only that, but unlike pseudo Force Techs, you don't have to react to whether your opponent will or not tech, since he will have no choice but to tech! Pseudos were always harder to use because knowing how to follow up after them depended largely on the amount of advantage they gave you. If you opponent techs the pseudo you would do a somewhat fast move and throw as a follow up. If they didn't tech and are force by the pseudo, then you had to use a slower move or throw. Untechables aren't unpredictable like this, you don't need to make quick, last second decisions baser on your opponent's reaction, the result is always the same: major advantage. That being said, what you do with this advantage is up to you and depends on the nature of your character. If you have guard breaks, use them; good pokes, use them; good sit down stuns, use them; good but slow throws or OHs, use them. There are many possibilities but the point is your attacking and your opponent can't otherwise you'll beat him out because of your advantage. A rule of thumb is to mix in together a goor mid attack and an OH or throw. These allow you to cover every possible action your opponent might perform to the defend against you ongoing pressure. And who know, you might be able to go from one techable to the next.
So, let's work together to shape the future of Hayabusa Ninjutsu, prepare!!!!
EDIT:
Here are Hayabusa's midweight untechables using PP4PK as the juggle ender. I also included what I found thus far for Helena/Genfu who seem to be heavier than your average mid weight, but lighter than Heavy weights. I also added the little I uncovered so far for Lightweights and Heavies.
Mid weights:
CH, 4K, K, PP4PK
CH, 6K, 4K, K, PP4PK
CH, 3P, 4K, K, PP4PK
CH, 3P, 6K or vice versa, 8K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3P, 6K or vice versa, P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3PP, 8K, 8P, PP4PK.
CB with P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3P or 6K, 214P, dash in P+K4 (CB), K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 6K, P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 66P, P+K4, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3P or 6K, 4F+K, P+K4 (CB), K, 8P, PP4PK.
Izuna, 66K, K, 8P, PP4PK (failure in timing turns this juggle into a pseudo).
Genfu/Helena:
CB with P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
Izuna, 66K, K, 8P, PP4PK (strict timing, failure turns this combo into a pseudo).
Heavy:
CB, 4K, K, PP4PK.
Lightweights:
Izuna, 236P, 66K, K, PP4PK (Pseudo).
General observation:
Obviously, PP4PK is an awesome Untechable for mid weights. But it is limited against Helena and Genfu that are heavier. Still, all other mid weight charcters are succeptible to the PP4PK untechable. It can only connect properly from three of Hayabusa's launchers.
4K: after a CH, you can launch immediately into K, PP4PK. You can also add one stun (3P, 6K) for the same result. Adding more than one stun however results in to high of a launch for it to work.
8K: This one comes into play where 4K fails. If you added too many stun, then launching with this kick and doing 8P, PP4PK will net you the tech.
Ongyoin K: Hayabusa will use this one after connecting with P+K4. provided you had a CH and one stun extender prior to connecting with P+K4, ongyoin K will launch just high enough to follow up with 8P, PP4PK for the tech. Furthermore, whenever you get a critical burst with P+K4, using the same juggle will net your the same effect even against Genfu and Helena. That being said, anytime you use P+K4 outside of CB be sure to mixup the Kick launcher from the stance with Shoho Izuna and his Ongyoin throw. Whenever PP4PK connects as an untechable, you will have +20 frame advantage, which is quite alot!
Follow ups after the untechable should be 214P, WS T (while standing throw, his handstance OH) or Izuna Otoshi which leads to his Izuna Untechable.
As a final observtation with this untechable, it is easy to use/time. It also can be substituted with his air grab if you ever decide to go for the wall damage, throw them off a cliff, just do the better damage because the untechable would be impossible (uneven floor). Remember that with untechables, you will be sacrificing a bit of damage in order to get a force tech. In most cases however, you won't loose more than 20 damage and the possibility to do more damage with the frame advantage far outshines the loss in juggle damage.
The next move I'll be looking at will be 6KP. I'm wondering if it would be possible to either get an untechable with this or if not at least a pseudo. If anyone finds anything, I encourage you all to post it here. There are so many possibilities, but given time and effort, I'm positive the results will be promising.
EDIT: I have discovered that most untechables ending with PP4PK will not work on Genfu or Helena.
Only the CB setup works:
ex: CH, 4F+K, 3P, P+K4 (CB), K, 8P, PP4PK.
However, 6KP works very well on Genfu and Helena. See the next post for details.
What's the big deal about these untechables you might ask?
The recent changes in the 1.03 patch altered the way certain vertical attacks interract with the ground and affect the ground game. For Hayabusa, the final kick in his PP4PK and the final punch of his 6KP strings are such moves.
What is an untechable?
For those who don't know, untechables are juggles that end with a ground hit that forces the opponent to techroll. Similiarly to pseudo force techs, these moves give advantage as the opponent tech rolls which allows the attacker to maintain pressure and remain on the offensive.
So why isn't it just called a pseudo forcetech?
The term "pseudo force tech" actually came from untechables. They are false untechables.The main difference is that untechables cannot be teched period. If the juggle while respecting certain conditions, the opponent is forced to tech by the final hit of the juggle. A pseudo Force Tech however lets the opponent decide to either tech or not. If the opponent techs then slight advantage is given to the attacker as the opponent is still getting up (teching). If the opponent does not tech, then the final hit of the juggle will hit the target and force them up just like an untechable would, in which case massive advantage is given to the attacker.
What are these conditions you speak of?
Well there are... many, just like for pseudo force techs. How much the stun threshold is pushed before launching, the type of launcher used, the untechable string itself, the weight class of the opponent and naturally, the surface the opponent will tech roll on (it must be PERFECTLY flat). Any miscalculation in this equation will result in three possible scenarios:
1. The opponent falls to the ground way before the untechable move or string connects, which results in not only loss of damage but possibly disavantage for you the attacker.
2. The opponent falls to the ground slitghly before the untechable move or string *completely* connects. This isn't too bad since the untechable actually becomes an pseudo force tech. The attacker will still have advantage over his teching opponent, just not as much as if the true untechable connected.
3. The move or string connects completely *before* the opponent was about to hit the ground. This results in a regular juggle, meaning your string completely hit the opponent while he was in the air. Now you lost your momentum and have to deal with your opponents get up kicks.
One might think that this is somewhat complicated, but let me assure you, with a little muscle memory (know yourself), observation (know your surroundings) and character knowledge (know how fat your opponent is), untechables are quite doable.
Sounds fancy but why should I do these again?
Simple, frame advantage! Just like pseudo force techs, untehcables give you advantage. But only untechables can give you INSANE amounts of advantage. On average, pseudo Force Techs give +4/+5 frame advantage. Currently, hayabusa's untechable gives him +20/+25. That's more than a lot of his GB and frame traps... combined! Not only that, but unlike pseudo Force Techs, you don't have to react to whether your opponent will or not tech, since he will have no choice but to tech! Pseudos were always harder to use because knowing how to follow up after them depended largely on the amount of advantage they gave you. If you opponent techs the pseudo you would do a somewhat fast move and throw as a follow up. If they didn't tech and are force by the pseudo, then you had to use a slower move or throw. Untechables aren't unpredictable like this, you don't need to make quick, last second decisions baser on your opponent's reaction, the result is always the same: major advantage. That being said, what you do with this advantage is up to you and depends on the nature of your character. If you have guard breaks, use them; good pokes, use them; good sit down stuns, use them; good but slow throws or OHs, use them. There are many possibilities but the point is your attacking and your opponent can't otherwise you'll beat him out because of your advantage. A rule of thumb is to mix in together a goor mid attack and an OH or throw. These allow you to cover every possible action your opponent might perform to the defend against you ongoing pressure. And who know, you might be able to go from one techable to the next.
So, let's work together to shape the future of Hayabusa Ninjutsu, prepare!!!!
EDIT:
Here are Hayabusa's midweight untechables using PP4PK as the juggle ender. I also included what I found thus far for Helena/Genfu who seem to be heavier than your average mid weight, but lighter than Heavy weights. I also added the little I uncovered so far for Lightweights and Heavies.
Mid weights:
CH, 4K, K, PP4PK
CH, 6K, 4K, K, PP4PK
CH, 3P, 4K, K, PP4PK
CH, 3P, 6K or vice versa, 8K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3P, 6K or vice versa, P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3PP, 8K, 8P, PP4PK.
CB with P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3P or 6K, 214P, dash in P+K4 (CB), K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 6K, P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 66P, P+K4, 8P, PP4PK.
CH, 3P or 6K, 4F+K, P+K4 (CB), K, 8P, PP4PK.
Izuna, 66K, K, 8P, PP4PK (failure in timing turns this juggle into a pseudo).
Genfu/Helena:
CB with P+K4, K, 8P, PP4PK.
Izuna, 66K, K, 8P, PP4PK (strict timing, failure turns this combo into a pseudo).
Heavy:
CB, 4K, K, PP4PK.
Lightweights:
Izuna, 236P, 66K, K, PP4PK (Pseudo).
General observation:
Obviously, PP4PK is an awesome Untechable for mid weights. But it is limited against Helena and Genfu that are heavier. Still, all other mid weight charcters are succeptible to the PP4PK untechable. It can only connect properly from three of Hayabusa's launchers.
4K: after a CH, you can launch immediately into K, PP4PK. You can also add one stun (3P, 6K) for the same result. Adding more than one stun however results in to high of a launch for it to work.
8K: This one comes into play where 4K fails. If you added too many stun, then launching with this kick and doing 8P, PP4PK will net you the tech.
Ongyoin K: Hayabusa will use this one after connecting with P+K4. provided you had a CH and one stun extender prior to connecting with P+K4, ongyoin K will launch just high enough to follow up with 8P, PP4PK for the tech. Furthermore, whenever you get a critical burst with P+K4, using the same juggle will net your the same effect even against Genfu and Helena. That being said, anytime you use P+K4 outside of CB be sure to mixup the Kick launcher from the stance with Shoho Izuna and his Ongyoin throw. Whenever PP4PK connects as an untechable, you will have +20 frame advantage, which is quite alot!
Follow ups after the untechable should be 214P, WS T (while standing throw, his handstance OH) or Izuna Otoshi which leads to his Izuna Untechable.
As a final observtation with this untechable, it is easy to use/time. It also can be substituted with his air grab if you ever decide to go for the wall damage, throw them off a cliff, just do the better damage because the untechable would be impossible (uneven floor). Remember that with untechables, you will be sacrificing a bit of damage in order to get a force tech. In most cases however, you won't loose more than 20 damage and the possibility to do more damage with the frame advantage far outshines the loss in juggle damage.
The next move I'll be looking at will be 6KP. I'm wondering if it would be possible to either get an untechable with this or if not at least a pseudo. If anyone finds anything, I encourage you all to post it here. There are so many possibilities, but given time and effort, I'm positive the results will be promising.
EDIT: I have discovered that most untechables ending with PP4PK will not work on Genfu or Helena.
Only the CB setup works:
ex: CH, 4F+K, 3P, P+K4 (CB), K, 8P, PP4PK.
However, 6KP works very well on Genfu and Helena. See the next post for details.
