Helena's needed improvements

[DR2K]

If they remove handslap tech(and I can promise you they will) then she's going to need to be rehauled. I just find it funny this incarnation of Helena is fucking horrible by every metric standard and her ability to eliminate the wake up kick is too much, but hey lets give Bass more chances for his pick up game(which he'll probably get). Fight a solid Bass and tell me how often you use a wake up kick against him, spoiler alert, you won't. Only difference is Helena isn't rewarded with the damage he does, barely half on average. They do share the same inherit problem, getting that first hit in, but they're rewarded for it on knockdown, because the next time their first hit won't be as difficult to start up.

I find it funny how the same people that championed 3.1 all these years have an issue with this tech. 3.1 was a broken game in general. Jann was derpier, Bass had various infinites and death combos, Hayate's carthwheel was so bad that it was banned, etc. . . In the games life span I only saw about 5 characters played on average.

 

[Justice]

When you look at the frame data, the number to the left of the slash is the execution frames and the number to the right of the slash is the advantage.

And yes, when you turn it on and you choose Left or Right, you'reicking which caracter's data will be shown.

 

[shinryu]

I don't actually know if they can remove her pseudo techs without a general system overhaul, and honestly they shouldn't; it's one of the things the slower characters absolutely need to stay alive in this game. I agree completely that she needs buffs if anything, especially on the 33p4p or 236p+k type entries. That they're not all even on block or even +2 or better on 236p+k is stupid. The only thing I'd seriously consider nerfing is stun on BKO 2k or sidestep k for normal hits; I'd let it be even or slight advantage, sure. But I do agree with Rikuto et al. that being able to restart stun from a tracking low after force tech is a a bit stupid. She needs as she is but she should lose it and be able to compete.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

They will not remove her pseudo force tech set ups. I would like it to be taken out and replaced with other better tools so she is a more well rounded character rather than being a crap character with one boring loop she can rinse and repeat but it won't happen.

I don't believe that it is a good as people say it is, but people like Rikuto calling it broken will cause a backlash that we will all have to endure regardless. Yesterday I got called a "youtube copycat"... really? I've been playing her for 12 years and am constantly developing tech for her that I share with the community and I don't even use her force tech set ups at all. Just goes to show that when a "pro player" says something that all the scrubs will listen regardless of how poorly educated that opinion is.

 

[Justice]

They will not remove her pseudo force tech set ups. I would like it to be taken out and replaced with other better tools so she is a more well rounded character rather than being a crap character with one boring loop she can rinse and repeat but it won't happen.

I don't believe that it is a good as people say it is, but people like Rikuto calling it broken will cause a backlash that we will all have to endure regardless. Yesterday I got called a "youtube copycat"... really? I've been playing her for 12 years and am constantly developing tech for her that I share with the community and I don't even use her force tech set ups at all. Just goes to show that when a "pro player" says something that all the scrubs will listen regardless of how poorly educated that opinion is.

So basically you're being called a "youtube copycat" for mimicing your own vids? Lame...

Fuck em. Play your game and enjoy playing it. They're probably just salty you kicked their asses.

And off the record, how is "youtube copycat" an insult anyway? Not everyone is ingenious enough to come up with their own shit (like me ) so I gotta rely on youtube vids for my tech. Am I gonna be butthurt over some ass clown calling me a "youtube copycat"? Fuck no! I'm doing what I can to stay competative and enjoy my game I spent a buttload of monies on.

Praise youtube!

 

[MCDOA]

They will not remove her pseudo force tech set ups. I would like it to be taken out and replaced with other better tools so she is a more well rounded character rather than being a crap character with one boring loop she can rinse and repeat but it won't happen.

I don't believe that it is a good as people say it is, but people like Rikuto calling it broken will cause a backlash that we will all have to endure regardless. Yesterday I got called a "youtube copycat"... really? I've been playing her for 12 years and am constantly developing tech for her that I share with the community and I don't even use her force tech set ups at all. Just goes to show that when a "pro player" says something that all the scrubs will listen regardless of how poorly educated that opinion is.

I'm not even that good with her, and I've been called things. Saying Helena is top tier (lmao) or that I'm using a braindead easy to use character that's cheap.
Even someone saying: playing Helena = press random buttons and win... like really?

But that still pisses me off, since Helena has been my main since DOA2.
I'm sorry to say this, but butthurt people like Rikuto are really bad for a community, especially a community like DOA that's struggling to be accepted.

 

[Justice]

I'm not even that good with her, and I've been called things. Saying Helena is top tier (lmao) or that I'm using a braindead easy to use character that's cheap.
Even someone saying: playing Helena = press random buttons and win... like really?

But that still pisses me off, since Helena has been my main since DOA2.
I'm sorry to say this, but butthurt people like Rikuto are really bad for a community, especially a community like DOA that's struggling to be accepted.

Yeah. I thought MK had it bad until I got involved in DoA. To a degree I understand why, but at the end of the day, it's the "fighting game scene" not the "Capcom scene" or whatever. There's room for all games. There's no need for inter-game hate. Or even inner-game hate for that matter.

For the record, Helena is boss BUT you gotta know how to use her. There's nothing cheap about her. You want cheap? Pick a ninja. Helena is like the female Gen Fu in that the majority of her arsenal hits mid so if the Helena player doesn't mix their shit up, it will get nasty fast. Believe me. I know how far you can go with Helena + button mashing

 

[shinryu]

I'm not even that good with her, and I've been called things. Saying Helena is top tier (lmao) or that I'm using a braindead easy to use character that's cheap.
Even someone saying: playing Helena = press random buttons and win... like really?

But that still pisses me off, since Helena has been my main since DOA2.
I'm sorry to say this, but butthurt people like Rikuto are really bad for a community, especially a community like DOA that's struggling to be accepted.

To be fair, you were playing online. Mash random buttons and win is actually a really strong strategy online for Helena, and it can be hard to tell the difference. Which is why online sucks.

 

[phoenix1985gr]

Yeah. I thought MK had it bad until I got involved in DoA. To a degree I understand why, but at the end of the day, it's the "fighting game scene" not the "Capcom scene" or whatever. There's room for all games. There's no need for inter-game hate. Or even inner-game hate for that matter.

For the record, Helena is boss BUT you gotta know how to use her. There's nothing cheap about her. You want cheap? Pick a ninja. Helena is like the female Gen Fu in that the majority of her arsenal hits mid so if the Helena player doesn't mix their shit up, it will get nasty fast. Believe me. I know how far you can go with Helena + button mashing

The only ninja who is probably better than helena is Ayane...

Anyway i wanted to test things more before i said this but from a quick glance at leifangs frame data (on block) i found 3 or 4 safe moves... ppp at -4 ppkk (i think -5) i cant remember other ones right now... probably 46p i ll check more thourogh her command list, but most of her moves are -8 or higher... So what i mean is in this game i dont understand what "unsafe" really means since every move puts you at negative... The thing is most of the times on block you just dont finish the string so you dont worry much about punishment... Am i wrong about something here? (i dont know if other characters who are considered mostly safe how many moves their actually safe from throw punishment just checked leifang)

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

The only ninja who is probably better than helena is Ayane...
So what i mean is in this game i dont understand what "unsafe" really means since every move puts you at negative... The thing is most of the times on block you just dont finish the string so you dont worry much about punishment... Am i wrong about something here? (i dont know if other characters who are considered mostly safe how many moves their actually safe from throw punishment just checked leifang)

Unsafe means you can be grabbed when attacks are blocked. If a move is -8 that means you can be thrown with anything up to a 7 frame grab, -4 is as negative as a move can get without being thrown seeing as the fastest grab is technically 5 frames.

Free cancelling mid string will leave you at more negative frames than finishing the string so even if you don't finish an unsafe string you can still be punished for it.

Kasumi and Hayate are weaker than Helena but Ayane and Busa are stronger than her, IMO.

Every character is mostly unsafe, when a character is declared unsafe it is based on the percentage of total moves that are unsafe out of all of their moves. Kokoro is considered safe even though she may only have maybe 10 safe moves out of 110. It's still a higher percentage than say Helena who has one safe string and one guard crush string out of 120 moves total.

 

[phoenix1985gr]

Yeah i know that -8 is what is considered unsafe... thats why i said that ppp (-4) is one of her safe moves...

Im gonna test this but if you have the answer it would be appreciated... I remember reading that helena has only handslap as safe at -4 even though she get low poked out of bko...

lets take 1ppk of hers... Id imagine that shes -7 or higher on blocked 1p, 1pp and 1ppk right? If i block 1p and shes at negative but try to throw punish and she continues the string i ll eat hc dmg correct? Assuming im right, what im saying is it doesnt matter because nobody will be trying to punish something because if they continue their string you ll get punished for trying to punish by throwing them... So the only way to really punish something is if they finish a string (generally this wont happen on block) or by reading that they ll stop mid string so you ll just guess... I guess some severe negative frames can be probably be interrupted but still for kasumi who has a 9f jab you ll have to be -10 or higher and your next move in the string without any ability to crush correct? (so sry for this wall of text)

 

[KidArk]

Okay I've basically learned this helena from watching black mamba play and reading his blog plus a little intuition and then from playing my friends offline with her. Hmm , to say she's broken would be an overstatement, one could "say the force tech is string with her ", but many other characters do have force techs . Bayman , Tina , Mila , Bass are the only ones I've used / experimented with and the difference I can see is basically options. I'm sorry I didn't come with numbers but i'd helena has an astounding number of options out of her force tech including high kicks, a tracking low a few mids and they all lead back into the force tech. Theoretically any character can have his whole move list available after a force tech ; however we know that isn't the case , we have to use what would have the advantage , keep up the pressure and inevitably lead back into the force tech. Honestly once you're into the wall I've used almost all off helena's moves to get the stun in and continue some variation of the force. Tech combo and I feel that's just dirty.

 

[MCDOA]

But isn't the point of scoring a knockdown to keep up the pressure? By not using a force tech or any other technique (like Bass picking you up, or Kasumi flipping over you) you risk a wake up kick.

Maybe I don't see the problem, since I main Rose in SSF4, and she is pretty much free on wake up, so I'm more prepared to fight my way out of a corner. I'm not going around complaining about characters who have it much easier when they're (*cough, Ryu, cough*) knocked down.

Keeping the momentum up is all Helena has going for her. Sure, her force tech is powerful, but people are really overreacting. It feels like a lot of people are just upset that a character like Helena has something like this instead of a top tier character they could all jump in on.

 

[KidArk]

But isn't the point of scoring a knockdown to keep up the pressure? By not using a force tech or any other technique (like Bass picking you up, or Kasumi flipping over you) you risk a wake up kick.

Maybe I don't see the problem, since I main Rose in SSF4, and she is pretty much free on wake up, so I'm more prepared to fight my way out of a corner. I'm not going around complaining about characters who have it much easier when they're (*cough, Ryu, cough*) knocked down.

Keeping the momentum up is all Helena has going for her. Sure, her force tech is powerful, but people are really overreacting. It feels like a lot of people are just upset that a character like Helena has something like this instead of a top tier character they could all jump in on.

Yes I'm. Not complaining , heck I use her but from using her I've noticed that the only thing making her "unfair, or broken" is the plethora of options that she has which all lead. back into the. Same situation, essentially you can call it an infinite , and as most characters combos into force tech closes as you get to the wall, she just gains more if they would make certain most characters you'd have to deal with a few 50/50 guesses which is bearable but which that forece tech setup you have to deal with 1/3 on most hits. This again leands back to not all characters being able to profit as well or at all from their force tech gaming leaving them essentially lacking. This would force an over all rehaul of the DOA 5 system which wouldn't be possible from a few patches

 

[HiguraShiki]

But isn't the point of scoring a knockdown to keep up the pressure? By not using a force tech or any other technique (like Bass picking you up, or Kasumi flipping over you) you risk a wake up kick.

Maybe I don't see the problem, since I main Rose in SSF4, and she is pretty much free on wake up, so I'm more prepared to fight my way out of a corner. I'm not going around complaining about characters who have it much easier when they're (*cough, Ryu, cough*) knocked down.

Keeping the momentum up is all Helena has going for her. Sure, her force tech is powerful, but people are really overreacting. It feels like a lot of people are just upset that a character like Helena has something like this instead of a top tier character they could all jump in on.

The point is, she is pretty much the only character in the game that can put you in an infinite loop in which you cannot escape from unless you guess correctly and hopefully end it. Unfortunately she has a million options she can do, which makes the loop difficult to break out of. Characters that eliminate force techs are mostly grapplers like Tina and Bass. A mixup character who can continue putting you in a stun situation, even with grabs, is a different story.

 

[MCDOA]

Okay, an infinite loop situation is very exaggerated, since Helena doesn't get any free damage from doing a force tech. It's like people just refuse to block, because they can't accept that they're at a disadvantage.

Her force tech is nowhere near as bad as say a vortex. Now that's guessing.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Okay, an infinite loop situation is very exaggerated, since Helena doesn't get any free damage from doing a force tech. It's like people just refuse to block, because they can't accept that they're at a disadvantage.

Her force tech is nowhere near as bad as say a vortex. Now that's guessing.

What I'm trying to say is that she is a faster, mixup variant of Bass for some odd reason, just with more mixups, grabs that keep you standing, etc.

 

[DR2K]

What I'm trying to say is that she is a faster, mixup variant of Bass for some odd reason, just with more mixups, grabs that keep you standing, etc.

She's nowhere near Bass. Bass is always at +11 during pick up and even more with force tech. You don't get the option to tech here.

What does more mix ups mean? Besides lacking an offensive hold she has as many options as Bass. She also lacks the shitton damage he does. So she'll be doing her tech game 4-5 times per round vs. . . maybe 2-3 for Bass.

 

[HiguraShiki]

She's nowhere near Bass. Bass is always at +11 during pick up and even more with force tech. You don't get the option to tech here.

What does more mix ups mean? Besides lacking an offensive hold she has as many options as Bass. She also lacks the shitton damage he does. So she'll be doing her tech game 4-5 times per round vs. . . maybe 2-3 for Bass.

Ehh, nevermind then.

 

[KidArk]

She's nowhere near Bass. Bass is always at +11 during pick up and even more with force tech. You don't get the option to tech here.

What does more mix ups mean? Besides lacking an offensive hold she has as many options as Bass. She also lacks the shitton damage he does. So she'll be doing her tech game 4-5 times per round vs. . . maybe 2-3 for Bass.

I play bass , er... generally the option is low punch ,Mid Kick , or grab if you back dash bass can't really hit you and some characters have options out of back dash, also once you're in the wall a lot of bass' options get dropped. As for helena once you're at the wall she has tracking low , mid, high , jump kicks , and grab? I know the mamba Helena I set the AI to a mix up at random I eat my thanksgiving dinner..( happy thanksgiving guys) when i come back I couldn't "block" everything and once the stun gets in and you guess wrong you're going down again fine Helena has to do it more times but that's only because she has more options than bass to force you back into it, also she's faster than bass. I have been able to grab Helena out of BKO but only offline and only with grapplers that have a low offensive hold so far , i.e Bayman.