Holds in Critical State -- just get rid of the damn thing already?

[Arnell Long]

Sypha, I still feel it's too early to tell, Team Ninja is getting insight from our Community to help with the process of DOA5 once NG3 has been released. So there's still hope for a more "competitive" DOA, it's up to Team Ninja to take our much needed advice.

 

[Rikuto]

The problem with that, Rikuto, is Team Ninja isn't aiming for a "competitive" fighter. So I don't see that happening.. at least not in DOA5.

--> "fighting entertainment", Power Blows, QTEs, even more stage interaction/damage, etc. Sure it will be fun, but competitive (as in respected tournament competitions)? I don't think so.

They claimed they wanted the game to be played competitively. They said they wanted it in tournaments like EVO. I heard them say this in person.

Until I am told otherwise, I am operating 100% on the assumption this is still true.

Even if it wasn't true, it doesn't really matter. System changes do not hurt casual sales, but vastly improve hardcore sales. There is no reason not to do it.

Only good can come from it on a business standpoint, and only good can come from it on a competitive standpoint. This should be a no brainer.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I agree with rikuto here. It is due time that critical system gets an overhaul with the removal of critical holds. If we want the best game possible, we do not want a Work around, a. Band aid, but a total fix to the problem. Doa do not need the critical hold shenanigans for it to be doa.

 

[Arnell Long]

Take away Counters while in a Critical State, make the neutral Counter Windows smaller, and adjust the Health to fit that formula...

 

[FakeSypha]

In that case, we'll just have to wait and see what becomes of DOA5, but if you Rikuto had personal/direct contact with TN and was told so, I just have to believe you. Anyway, I was just taking in mind what they showed us so far, which is little, but doesn't look like they're going full "competitive fighter" mode.

As Arnell Long said, it may be too soon to tell.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Me and Master were chopping it up on Saturday and he brought up a good point.

In DOAD you could pick where you started the stage. If thats possible in DOA5 then we could avoid levels with cliff hangers all together.

The QTE's for walls, I bet we can convince them to take that out.

Hope is not lost gentlemen, E3 iz right around das conah!

 

[Tenren]

Me and Master were chopping it up on Saturday and he brought up a good point.

In DOAD you could pick where you started the stage. If thats possible in DOA5 then we could avoid levels with cliff hangers all together.

The QTE's for walls, I bet we can convince them to take that out.

Hope is not lost gentlemen, E3 iz right around das conah!

Being able to pick is good but from the alpha video you see Ryu does a power blow into the wall. Which in turn does this whole car bounce effect. Which could may also be a cliff hanger thing. We wont know 100% till the demo which may change even after. But If we can choose then we will have to come up with rules as the safest place to start for both players would be.

 

[x Sypher x]

I agree with rikuto here. It is due time that critical system gets an overhaul with the removal of critical holds. If we want the best game possible, we do not want a Work around, a. Band aid, but a total fix to the problem. Doa do not need the critical hold shenanigans for it to be doa.

What do you mean by a "work around?" As Rikuto said earlier, DOA 3.1 had these "work arounds" that I'm assuming are referring to the topic of this thread. Can you elaborate on that? Also, based on this idea of a work around, i'm guessing that while 3.1 was the most viable competitive game it had some things of it's own that could have tweaked to make it dam near perfect?

Or perhaps this is a better way to look at it. Let's say DOA4 is obsolete and we are jumping straight from 3.1 to 5. What improvements can be made from there that would make DOA5 the competitive game that so many desire? How should TN get it on that level?

Oh dear, I hope this isn't too off topic...lol.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Work arounds as in true comboes and stun launch . This it what saved the system. The next evolution to this is just removing critical holds from the system. no one should recieve a chunk of damage because they outplayed their opponent. as it is now, struggling will allow you to escape light-medium stuns, while heavy stuns are guarnteed. Another fix is to stop the stun into stun. The innitial stun result in one exchange, not multiple.

 

[x Sypher x]

Work arounds as in true comboes and stun launch . This it what saved the system. The next evolution to this is just removing critical holds from the system. no one should recieve a chunk of damage because they outplayed their opponent. as it is now, struggling will allow you to escape light-medium stuns, while heavy stuns are guarnteed. Another fix is to stop the stun into stun. The innitial stun result in one exchange, not multiple.

Interesting, that makes sense now. And regarding the stuns, you mean that the stun threshold should be limited to only one level? In other words, after you get stunned once, using critical as an example, the threshold should not extend any more and you should get a guaranteed launch after the initial stun. Furthermore, if you decide to use a normal attack, whether it stuns or not, rather than launch your opponent, then the threshold should end and you'll revert back to a normal stun. Is that correct? Am I making sense?

 

[virtuaPAI]

Yes, there should be no stun threshold. One hit and that is it. The amount of frame advantage you have during the critical should dictate the attacks that can be used at that given time. If someone wants to use another stunning attack right after, than it should result in an automatic knockdown. No stringing along the critical/stun state. The only reason doa have critical holds, because the original concept in itagaki's mind(doa2) was the whole stunning and stringing along the opponent in a prolonged stun. Any game that allowed this without having some form of escape would be broken. However, the fact that it is in the game in the first place is fundamentally broken. Thanks to Tom Brady, we found a way to mend most of the foolishness with stun launch/knockback/knockdown. Itagaki made it so we were forced to play the stun game with doa4. Anyone can clearly see that we did not want to play that way with both doa2u and doa3.

The removal of critical hold and stun threshold (extended stunning), will allow the doa franchise to evolve from the mindset we have built from doa2u/doa3....which is infact the mindset of what the fighting game community share.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

Why don't you guys just play Tekken?

 

[x Sypher x]

Cool

 

[Awesmic]

Why don't you guys just play Tekken?

Personally, there's just a few problems I have with that. The game consists of jailbait, old hags, refrigerator humpers, and women within my age preferences that are nowhere near my type, except for Zafina. And bears and kangaroos for people who swing that way for good measure. Gotta please that 2% who prefer bestiality, y'know...

That said, it's no reason to assume everyone here wants DOA to literally be Tekken, much less play EXACTLY like that game. 'Cause you know what'll happen? It'll be labeled as an uninspired Tekken clone, and STILL get flak. Besides, it's a fucked-up thought for a DOA game to have bears and kangaroos and shit. I can see Pixie from Monster Rancher, but that's as far as weird shit should go... that's just me though.

Anyway, have a little faith in these guys, Relius. I'm sure they have better sense than to wish for this game to play 100% exactly like Tekken and have no relative distinction for itself that's competitively legit.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I think most of these guys would like to play something else but have gotten so good at something no one respects that they want some external vindication.

So lets all stop having this discussion about what DOA should be - make a thread on Shoryuken, let THEM decide what the game should be and then we'll just play that!

That way, we'll get the game they want, it'll be called DOA and if they like it then we'll like it and if they like it and we like it because they like it then we'll like it and they might like it enough to play it with us while we ALL like it.

I'm gonna go take a leak and then I'm going to go play some DOA4 - deuces.

 

[Jefffcore]

Holds create an unbalanced game; taking them out means no need for a stun system. That's still not Tekken.

People want it out because it makes no sense.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

No holds + No stun system = Tekken (Or Virtua Fighter) with 3 buttons, dramatic camera movement and interactive stages.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Why don't you guys just play Tekken?

All the females in that game have man shoulders, and it's four buttons so it's far too complicated.

[/joking]

Asking to bring features over from other consistent fighting games is common place, after all Tekken 4 took the whole environment aspect from DOA2 as well as SC/VF with the Wall Splat from DOA3. Granted, no proof that it was from DOA that the features came about, but DOA could be considered the pioneer in that regard. (i.e., I have no facts to back me up and I don't care to look besides a general timeline).

And for the record, I've never enjoyed Tekken's system as it always felt clunky to me but more power to those who play and love that series.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Holds are not imbalaced, holds in critical state along with the current critical system are. holds just need minor tweaking. Attacks and throws need to be beefed up to their former glory.

Yes, many things were taken from doa. Wall splat was first in doa, vf4-5 ground system was taken from doa etc. there is absolutly nothing wrong in fixing a feature that is broken, and borrowing from the next fighter.

 

[Jefffcore]

^ That was what I meant.