How do you handle fast characters as a slow one?

[Ace]

Hey guys, I have some questions to ask. Anything I say bellow is my perspective so please don't chew me out for thinking them. Appreciate the help.

The fundamental flaw with this game is that strike characters clearly have an advantage in this game. Instead of the system being Rock (Hold), Paper(Throw), Scissors (Strike), it's more like Rock, Paper, Machete.

Throws don't function the do in other fighting games. You can't use them to punish start of animations of attacks. Therefore you need to catch you opponent blocking or whiffing a counter, which they'll probably never use. This is why...

For strike characters offense is the best defense. They're already "immune" to throws. But here's the thing, unless it's against another strike character they "don't have to block". I don't know what team ninja was thinking but majority of strike character moves are safe on block. Try jab punishing and you will get counter hit majority of the time. The only option is to hold.

Here's the thing about Holds against strike characters. Because of their safe attacks, they're free to mix you up however they please. So many highs and mids in this game that look like they could be either or. So many strings to know as well. The only thing a non strike player can do is guess or know every characters move set.

Also lets not forget how easy it is to break throw or hold combos. I'd get it if they balanced with you can only break it with a precise timing, but NO just mash and you're free. But strikes force you with a 25% guess... sounds fair to me. It's also due to this that good offensive holds become much less useful

The last thing that makes things an uphill battle is spacing. Back dash is TERRIBLE in this game. At least in UMvC3 you have wave dashes, in Tekken you have the Korean Back dash, Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter in general have balance in the sense that slower characters will have attacks that let them create the space. But in this game you just get counter hit for even trying. So all you can do is be rushed down.

If it's a tl;dr... Basically I want to know how to fight off pressure as a slow character other than holds. Also how to create space. If I get momentum going with a knock down, I'm fine with offense. But defense has me stumped.

So yeah what are your solutions to the things I mentioned. I hope I don't see a bunch of "you suck, get better." Anyone good at the game probably agrees with some of what I am saying. Hell I have a strike character on reserve for when I'm tired of losing to bad balance

 

[Tokkosho]

I only read till the most attacks are safe. Sorry, but no.

 

[Ace]

I only read till the most attacks are safe. Sorry, but no.

thanks for that. So you want to tell me that there aren't many safe strings that offer mix ups? Maybe I should have changed the phrase to most attacks used are safe. Didn't think semantics would be an issue.

But yeah most strike characters have a good few safe or hard to punish options that they can abuse. Like any 3D fighting game, sure you have a move set of 100+ But you really use the best 20. Most of which are safe attacks while the others aren't safe but offer good mix ups. DOA seems to have made many mix ups safe as well.

Also for unsafe strings you usually have to hold or sidestep. I may or may not have mentioned, I'm bad at predicting holds. As for knowing when to sidestep, it takes extensive knowledge of other characters move sets. I can sidestep some popular strings but that's about it

Well if people want to tell me other wise, I'm happy to hear it. Teach me to be better

 

[UncleKitchener]

Hey, I'm compiling a list of punishable moves for each character.

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-throw-punish-thread.2597/

Basically, the main purpose of throws in this games, is to overwrite Holds and punish unsafe moves. Punishing with strikes is possible, but only possible on a very few moves in the game and with the lack of decent Natural combos, you'd end up relying on throws.

You'd want to use catch throws against strikes instead of throws (they're called Offensive Holds in this game and they're slower than throws). Throws aren't like throws in Tekken where they all have catch properties as they're way too fast and OH/catch throws in this games are on average 16 frames or slower.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Throws don't function the do in other fighting games. You can't use them to punish start of animations of attacks. Therefore you need to catch you opponent blocking or whiffing a counter, which they'll probably never use. This is why...

Haven't read the rest of your post yet, but just wanted to say that you are technically correct. In most other fighting games, a throw acts as an unblockable attack that hits both crouching and standing opponents. That is, DOA5's functions as the ONLY OTHER fighting game that does not follow the traditional definition, and that's the game that DOA spawned from: Virtua Fighter.

Also lets not forget how easy it is to break throw or hold combos. I'd get it if they balanced with you can only break it with a precise timing, but NO just mash and you're free.

You can guarantee combo throws by practicing your just frame timing of them in training mode.

 

[Ace]

@UncleKitchner Cool I'll check it out now

@ Mr.Wah What do you mean I can guarantee them? Aren't all throw and hold combos breakable? How will I know if I performed a just frame throw?

To clarify my under standing of a just frame attack is like in Tekken where there are just frame version of attacks, like Hworangs Sky Rocket. There is a visual difference so I know I did it successfully. Is there a way to know if I performed a just frame throw in that sense?

Also I know my post is tl;dr... Basically I want to know how to fight off pressure as a slow character other than holds. Also how to create space. If I get momentum going with a knock down, I'm fine with offense. But defense has me stumped.

 

[Tokkosho]

Mr. Watch XD

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

What do you mean I can guarantee them? Aren't all throw and hold combos breakable? How will I know if I performed a just frame throw?

I believe he means that if you practice the combo throw/hold enough to get the timing down perfectly that it would be impossible for your opponent to break out. The reason for this is because, by my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), if both players press their respective buttons at the same time, priority is given to the player who started the throw and the throw is then continued without being broken.

So let's say I hit and land a high punch hold with Bayman. I can then follow it up with , but when I'm supposed to press , my opponent can press to break the combo hold. If my opponent and myself both press our respective inputs at the exact same time, I'll have priority and my combo hold will continue. So if I master the timing so that I always hit at the first possible frame, that combo hold will be guaranteed regardless of my opponent's timing.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Yes, that is correct.

Since the game gives the throwing player the win in the event that both players press throw at the same time, it is possible to guarantee the combo throw if the throwing player presses throw at the first frame of the combo throw window.

You can practice this perfect timing by doing the combo throws to the AI in training mode with the AI set to break throws at Fastest setting.

It's something very viable, as those who have fought Rikuto offline can attest. He has been doing the DDT combo throw with Bayman for so long that you just can't break his throws... unless he wants you to break it so that he is at +3.

Also I know my post is tl;dr... Basically I want to know how to fight off pressure as a slow character other than holds. Also how to create space. If I get momentum going with a knock down, I'm fine with offense. But defense has me stumped.

It's not an easy battle and the game certainly sways in the favor of the faster attack characters. Although most are "unsafe", most are also very difficult to tell if they are free-cancelling the string or doing the string delay. Sometimes the string delaying can at (most) times act as a faux-frame advantage attack.

In short your major tools besides the hold are offensive holds, crushes, and good old guarding.

 

[Ace]

Mr. Watch XD

lol yeah I fail xD Nice to see you again

@ Mr.Wah & Folorn Penguin
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I always figured you could mash out of throws and holds because I've done so 80%+ of the time online and so have the people I've tried them on. Guess I can blame that on lag and/or inexperience.

Mr. Wah you were saying I could set the ai to tech throws on fastest, I'm assuming the ai doesn't tech on the first possible frame, otherwise using it for practice would be impossible, right?

 

[Tones]

Brad Wong and Tengu has always had this (the topic) as an issue. The best advice I can give, is... Don't play their game. Don't play the interrupt and poking game the same as the faster characters. Only interrupt and jab things out at mid or long distance. Stay away from it if you're close because 9 times out of 10 you'll lose.

Spacing is not the same as it is in tekken. You can play it similar when you're in mid distance or long distance, but close in is completely different.

Post patch sidestep has made things easier though. Mix that in with crushes and you're sweet.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Mr. Wah you were saying I could set the ai to tech throws on fastest, I'm assuming the ai doesn't tech on the first possible frame, otherwise using it for practice would be impossible, right?

It does, that's why you are successful if you press your throw button the first possible frame.

 

[Sly Bass]

It does, that's why you are successful if you press your throw button the first possible frame.

It actually isn't specifically the throw button. I've broken combo throws with just the guard button.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

^Yeah and I use the throw button to continue my combo holds with Bayman even though you're technically supposed to use the hold button.

 

[Sly Bass]

^Yeah and I use the throw button to continue my combo holds with Bayman even though you're technically supposed to use the hold button.

 

[vINv]

Practice your characters frames. Then compare the start up frame against the charater thats giving you trouble. To me it becomes a mind game. For example Helena's standing jab is 11frs buts christes is 9frs.
Obviously i cant beat her out. So you have to use you chararcters crush moves. To crush any highs or keep an eye on them in case they attempt a grab. If christie throws a mid punch then u can trade your highs with their mids. Its important to know ur oppents negative strings and their startup frames. On ther high ps high ks mid ps mid ks this is how i when alot of my matches against faster chars..

 

[Ace]

I guess the only thing left unanswered for me is how to create space between your opponent.

The best I have for now is getting a knock down if I see a high coming. Or get a hold in. But then it's a waste to make the space, I rather take the oki.

What I need is a way to create space while I have pressure on me. The back dash just feels to unreliable

 

[Ace]

Oh I also want to know, how can I tell which moves in my move set are high/low crushes.

And in training mode when I first got the game any time I pressed a button it would show me all possible moves on the side. But now there is a picture of a lock and it will only show me the moves that start with P. I have no idea how to unlock it

 

[Matt Ponton]

Oh I also want to know, how can I tell which moves in my move set are high/low crushes.

And in training mode when I first got the game any time I pressed a button it would show me all possible moves on the side. But now there is a picture of a lock and it will only show me the moves that start with P. I have no idea how to unlock it

I believe that's R3 or RS to lock/unlock it.

 

[DR2K]

With a slow character like Helena I generally get in using her evasive moves.

Also blocking most moves and strings will almost always leave you at +frames. So study your characters frame data and use the best tools available.