How would you improve Eliot in DOA5U?

[Belinea]

So at this point it has been pretty much concluded that Eliot is one of the worst characters in the game. With that said, how would you go about improving him? Here are some of my suggestions, starting with changes I feel are both reasonable and easy to implement, to the more elaborate and crazy stuff.

Make and its variations safe on hit.
I think it pretty unfair in general to be punished for actually hitting your opponent, but when you factor in the damage difference of the versus a low throw, this move becomes not only useless in higher play, but extremely risky to use in any situation.

Revert back to being a 2-in-1 NH launcher
In DOA4 this move was a 2-in-1, but its effectiveness was seriously limited due to the fact that the would usually catch the opponent on counter hit. Regardless though, it was a tool Eliot once had that was taken away from him. In DOA5 however, being a 2-in-1 would be a huge boost to him, as it would give him a guaranteed launcher (or wall spat) after his parry. This would not only give him a new tool in general, and make his parry that much more effective, but it also reduces the amount of time TN has to wrestle over making the parry useful and how much frame advantage it needs (something they’ve obviously had trouble with before). This way TN wouldn’t even need to change the parry at all.

Make 13 (or even 12) frames
I’ve talked about it on this forum several times before about how Eliot’s fastest mid is actually his 14 frame . is 13 frames, but requires buffering, which also means he can’t do it when being pressured. Making his faster would go along way to helping him deal with rushdown characters and other such situations.

→ Or alternatively, move to , and move to
Relocating to would remove the need for it to be buffered, and give him access to a 13 frame mid at anytime (like most of the other characters). The current is already a kick, so it would fit naturally with its new command.

Allow to track
Currently () is his only mid tracking move, which takes 35 frames to come out. To give an example of how bad that is, Bayman can tank-roll around the and then block or hold the kick. being a tracking move would help him a considerable amount, and allow him to deal with characters that can abuse his almost entirely, non-tracking moveset. As a side note () tracking makes no sense anyway, as the is a straight back kick, while the actually has a circular movement.

Turn into a 2-in-1
After a fully charged + is blocked becomes guaranteed, while also dropping the number of hits needed to CB from 4 to 3. This change would give him the ability to CB in 1 hit, much like Gen Fu can do with into + CB. At 87 frames, this move is extremely risky to throw out anyway, but at least this way it would have a huge purpose to his game, and really make the opponent fear the +/ + mixup. Also, unlike Gen Fu, this set-up would not work after a blocked powerblow.

Allow him to cancel +
87 frames is a long time for a move to come out. This change goes hand-in-hand with the one above, in that it would give + purpose to his game, and really make the opponent fear the +/ + mixup.

Make safe on block
Not essential I admit, but it rubs me the wrong way that an opponent can still throw punish him even after he guard breaks them. Unsafe guard breaks are just silly in my opinion.

Allow him to become back-turned without using an attack.
Eliot’s highest launcher is his back-turned , and it’s almost sickening to know that when you CB your opponent it is impossible to use this launcher, seeing as there is no way for him to simply turn around without attacking. Not an essential change, but damn it would be nice.

Allow + to crush like it did in DOA4
In DOA4 this might have seriously have been Eliot’s best move, and that’s because it allowed him to get out of situations his moveset simply was not capable of dealing with. It used to avoid highs, throws and OH’s, as well as mid attacks on occasion. In DOA5 however, Eliot has huge difficulty crushing anything, and can even get hit with OH’s if he attempts this move. Bringing back its crushing ability would help to round out Eliot’s moveset, and make him that much more complete as a character,


Increase the frame advantage of his parry from +16 to +19
There was a lot of hype surrounding Eliot in the pre-launch DOA5, and specifically his ability to launch from parry, which was something I honestly never thought was necessary. +19 doesn’t guarantee a launcher (although I might be overlooking something), but it will guarantee + after a successful kick parry – which leads into a whole bunch of shenanigans. It would also guarantee wall splats as well. This suggestion, coupled with the one about making a 2-in-1 would make Eliot an absolute beast.

Change into a sidestep move (ala Gen Fu's SS p+k)
has always been a pseudo (and unintentional) sidestep attack. For a very brief point in the animation Eliot will step off-axis momentarily before realigning himself. Timed right it allows him to both attack with a move that out prioritises even Jann Lee’s dragon kick, while also stepping out of alignment. The problem though is that the sidestep portion of the attack is way too minimal, and it’s definitely not something you can just throw out. Making it a full-on sidestep attack would be great for him, and just in general make him less of a sitting duck against faster characters.

Revert back to being safe
I understand why TN made it unsafe, seeing as they probably didn’t want someone to abuse a move that causes a sitdown stun. The problem with this though is that fact that the cons vastly outweigh the pros- seeing as the is unsafe if free cancelled, it only has one follow-up (the ), getting hit with the alone will not cause a sitdown stun, and that the sitdown stun practically guarantees nothing away. He was mostly unsafe in DOA4, so having a move like this being safe helped him out a great deal, as it would in DOA5. Also, I’m generally just annoyed they made it unsafe in the first place, especially when he was already so unsafe to begin with. Bad call TN.

Make safe (and generally faster)
Another suggestion that, while not essential, I feel would benefit him greatly. Eliot’s playstyle is that of a ‘spear’ – in that, from half or full screen away he can suddenly enter in on you with moves like , +, +, etc. However, seeing as characters move forward much faster than backwards, if someone wants to rush him down, Eliot’s ‘spear’ game never gets the chance to start. Therefore, making safe would give him an option to get to a safe distance to play the game his way. And I know this is totally unrealistic, but they could make it cause a sitdown stun (like Pai's +) as opposed to a launcher (which is useless in single player anyway), and then maybe have something like + be guaranteed to really highlight the fact that Eliot can dart about the stage at will.

Allow him to do a follow up juggle after
can be held either by a high or mid kick hold, making it riskier to do than his other launchers. And while I appreciate that it’s a neutral hit launcher, actually launching someone on NH with it doesn’t allow you to follow up with anything other than the . Again not essential, but TN could really turn this into a great move if they wanted. I redact this point, as I had not done the proper testing, and am incorrect.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

Eliot stuff

im not holding my breath for TN to give him any meaningful buffs in 5U. their pathetic attempt at it in their 3.01 patch proves they have no idea how or even care to make him viable. but to go along with your suggestions they need to make his and and all its string variations give him + on block. why even give eliot a guardbreak as an option in his string enders when hes still at disadvantage when it connects on a blocking opponent. its not like his mixup game is anything but trash when his low options from all his strings leave him at negative on normal hit anyway.

an opponent has no reason to even fear blocking or countering low against any of eliots strings . which leads to my second suggestion in changing his / attacks where the low K stuns on normal hit granting the mid punch follow up launcher if the opponent doesn't counter it like his does. it would improve his pressure game and give an opponent a reason not to just stand there blocking without a care in the world. same goes for his / strings which should stun on normal hit.

Im pretty much done with him now that my real main has returned but there would be a spot left as my 2nd in command if they buff him adequately enough

 

[Belinea]

Great post man, I agree with pretty much everything. I find works pretty well at the minute (really I'm just glad to have a string that isn't unsafe), but it actually having advantage would be a huge boost for him.

 

[kazenouta]

mmmm first i want him a little faster or with more good frame moves. Now he only have 7p with good frame rate.... then i want that they give to him more moves. I hope those new moves are a good mix of low mid and high XD mmm i hope they not based a lot of his combo on the 236 throw 'cause when you fight againts players that know eliot well they guard down and you miss the throw XD I never played doa 4 so i can't talk about the move he had earlier. The only thing i know right now is that he really need a buff. I'm a good player especially with him and i dont say so 'cause I'm full of myself, (quite the countrary). I played againts really good players and sometimes I won too and they really like my eliot. However eliot found more difficult then other character especially againts fast and when there is lag ( the 236 throw 3p3p3p6ppp or 3p3p3p6ppk miss with lag) so i hope the programmers buff him a bit. I don't like easy char so I don't want eliot to became one of them but at least i want him a little more competitive XD

 

[Allan Paris]

His sit-down stuns need to have guaranteed launchers after them. His sit-downs are literally pointless to use. His parries do need to guaranteed launchers as they did before. The stun effect on 7P also needs to revert back to the pre-launch build, it was a deeper stun. And im pretty sure the range on it was better than it is now. This dude was a monster back then and would be even crazier with the things that have been found for him after launch.

I have a suggestion on his parries and Gen Fu should be done the same. Eliot's parries should be advanced parries giving him +20. Gen fu shouldn't get +20 but his parries should be advanced giving him significant frame advantage to continue his BS. Anyways, Eliot's mid holds should should jail his opponents at +16, guaranteeing him a launcher. That 50/50 nonsense for holding needs to stop.

I agree with making his 6P 12i but that's the only thing I'd like to see speed up on him.

I don't main but I've always liked Eliot and as of now there is no reason to use this character competitvely.

My optimism is at its all time low for the game. I do know they come and read threads here and I hope they build Eliot up to par. They honestly need to make ALL the characters "broken" as fuck and then go from there. There are also some core mechanics that need to be fixed before they allow Eliot to be at +16 or 20 from a hold or parry.

Oh yeah, I see in OP that his 3P+K should be what it was in 4. I would love that but if that was to happen I could see Ryu and Helen getting the same the treatment. High Crush moves should crush just that, highs and not all my attacks in every hit level. This also one of the reasons why you don't see many people using crush moves as much now as a fail safe attack. They can't be whore'd out anymore which is a good thing. That's one less bullshit tactic that was apart of the meta game that doesn't need to be worried about now.

 

[David Gregg]

Awesome thread! You don't know how frustrating it is to have to attack to have his back turned in order to launch with .

And if that's not possible if they could just let the launcher be the one that connects with the previous attack I'd be happy.

 

[Belinea]

First video of Eliot in DOA5U:

Immediately noticeable changes:

• New kick attack. If I had to guess I say it's . Looks like it could track, which would be great for Eliot.
• New shoryuken-like attack. Obviously his power launcher, due to the players' ability to slightly charge it. Confirms a non-charged power launcher is useless on NH, as the other player is knocked too far away and can tech roll immediately afterwards.
• () changed to cause a ground bounce, just like the version in the 10-hit string. The 10-hit version can only be followed up with the rest of that string though, so let's hope it's slightly more useful than that. Could be a really great tool if the ground bounce is high enough.

 

[David Gregg]

Not bashing the players but it's sort of frustrating watching that match b/c they didn't really utilize Eliot (and it's the only match we've got so far). I was wondering about that kick as well b/c it sort of swings around but for now I'm not getting my hopes up.

But yeah the ground bounce is a great addition do you think you could follow that up with ?

 

[Belinea]

Well, as of now, he can't follow up with an instant 3p of the 10-hit version of the ground bounce. I might be imagining it though, but the new bounce looks to be slightly higher, which could be something to get exicited about as it would allow Eliot to get a full combo of a NH launcher. It could essentially fix this problem I had:

Allow him to do a follow up juggle after
can be held either by a high or mid kick hold, making it riskier to do than his other launchers. And while I appreciate that it’s a neutral hit launcher, actually launching someone on NH with it doesn’t allow you to follow up with anything other than the . Again not essential, but TN could really turn this into a great move if they wanted.

-

His sit-down stuns need to have guaranteed launchers after them. His sit-downs are literally pointless to use. His parries do need to guaranteed launchers as they did before. The stun effect on 7P also needs to revert back to the pre-launch build, it was a deeper stun.

Yeah I agree with everything said here.

My optimism is at its all time low for the game. I do know they come and read threads here and I hope they build Eliot up to par. They honestly need to make ALL the characters "broken" as fuck and then go from there. There are also some core mechanics that need to be fixed before they allow Eliot to be at +16 or 20 from a hold or parry.

E3 has come and went with little-to-no information about changes to core mechanics. And the video of Eliot above confirms that the game is still the random mess it always was. Let's just keep our optimism low, in the hopes of being pleasantly surprised if it turns out good.

Oh yeah, I see in OP that his 3P+K should be what it was in 4. I would love that but if that was to happen I could see Ryu and Helen getting the same the treatment. High Crush moves should crush just that, highs and not all my attacks in every hit level. This also one of the reasons why you don't see many people using crush moves as much now as a fail safe attack. They can't be whore'd out anymore which is a good thing. That's one less bullshit tactic that was apart of the meta game that doesn't need to be worried about now.

Honestly, the only reason I recommeneded this change was to give an alternative to making his quicker. Eliot really needs something to help him out aganist rush down characters, so my suggestions are either make 6p quicker to match their speed, or keep him slow but give him a good crushing move to get around their offense. If that meant the return of Helenas' crushing bs, then i'll gladly take a quicker 6p over it.

Saying that though, making 3p+k a more effective crushing move would go along way to giving the move some purpose. As of right now instant 3p (which as you know is also a mid punch launcher) is a faster high crush, launches higher, and can be used to juggle as well. The benefits of using instant 3p outweigh 3p+k in my opinion, unless you're just trying to set up an easy 2p+k force tech of counter hit (but give me 20 minutes in the lab and I could probably find the same set-up for instant 3p).

Also, sorry it took me two weeks to reply. I'm just god awful at carrying conversations.

 

[David Gregg]

Well, as of now, he can't follow up with an instant 3p of the 10-hit version of the ground bounce. I might be imagining it though, but the new bounce looks to be slightly higher, which could be something to get exicited about as it would allow Eliot to get a full combo of a NH launcher.

It looked higher to me also which is why I got a little excited (but can't confirm it unfortunately) .

My one wish though is for them to let the launcher be the move that connects after for example.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

bounce from looks to low to instant refloat off of, especially since eliot is the lightest character in the game and yet the bounce still is low as hell on him.

at best it looks like he'd get . not really useful at all with how shitty 33p is. its pretty much a high risk/low reward and just reaffirms my belief that TN has no idea what they're doing with him balance-wise

 

[DR2K]

I'd give her breasts.

 

[David Gregg]

bounce from looks to low to instant refloat off of, especially since eliot is the lightest character in the game and yet the bounce still is low as hell on him.

at best it looks like he'd get . not really useful at all with how shitty 33p is. its pretty much a high risk/low reward and just reaffirms my belief that TN has no idea what they're doing with him balance-wise

(sighs) Well I'll take any followup I guess. Eliot isn't too bad. It would be nice for him to have improved recovery time though and he needs better tracking (which earlier in the thread we're thinking that his new kick in the video could possibly track).

I'd give her breasts.

Hey now.

 

[ScattereDreams]

I would like for TN to give Eliot new and hold animations, and make his current 4H/6H expert holds in which he gains more frame advantage (something similar to Lei Fangs 46H). Eliot's parry leaves him at +15/+16 in which SHOULD be guaranteed but it's not because of DOA's silly false start up on attacks in which TN should either make a natural combo, give more range, or make faster. Eliot should also receive more frame advantage on his sit down stuns 3kp, p+k, and 66k or TN should reduce the recovery on those attacks. I also agree whole heartedly with some of the stuff I read here. Eliot needs to be safer, and needs his crushing game back, . Dragon kick should be at least +2 while I'll argue should be +1 or neutral

 

[Belinea]

Seeing as OH's are the current talk about town, how would you guys feel about Eliot getting his old 66f+p OH back? I have fond memories of it, as it also served as a high crush.

Also I redact my last point in the OP about 33p. Turns out you can full combo of it.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

I would like for TN to give Eliot new and hold animations, and make his current 4H/6H expert holds in which he gains more frame advantage (something similar to Lei Fangs 46H). Eliot's parry leaves him at +15/+16 in which SHOULD be guaranteed but it's not because of DOA's silly false start up on attacks in which TN should either make a natural combo, give more range, or make faster. Eliot should also receive more frame advantage on his sit down stuns 3kp, p+k, and 66k or TN should reduce the recovery on those attacks. I also agree whole heartedly with some of the stuff I read here. Eliot needs to be safer, and needs his crushing game back, . Dragon kick should be at least +2 while I'll argue should be +1 or neutral

better yet keep the old mid holds the same with increased frame advantage and give him expert mid holds that counter into his super launcher like busa

 

[DontForkWitMe]

i look back at this thread and find it adorable we all expected buffs for him only for him to get nerfed even further.

thank god leons back... hope yall have new mains lined up too cuz unless you're a masochist theres no reason to continue bothering with this garbage character

 

[SilverForte]

Poor Eliot.

 

[ScattereDreams]

I'm not understanding why'd they nerf him. They want players to be hyped for this game and they pull this. It's like they disregard all fan feed back from competitive players and do the opposite. What made Eliot so frightening that he lost ALL his guaranteed options when he had very few to begin with vs someone like Akira or Jann Lee >.> He's utterly shit now

 

[RoboJoe]

R.I.P. Eliot