Chapstick
Well-Known Member
They usually end -30
I Am The Shadow... The True Self... [General Discussion]
- Thread starter StrikerSashi
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Zephyrion
Member
It's actually closer to that than you might think, she ends at - 30 on block on it, which means you can get the best throw/launcher of your choice. What's even worse is the fact that it is unholdable : If you practice your punish, you can hold, free step to her back and enjoy your free back-turned shenanigans (pro-tip you always dodge to the direction your back is facing), and this can hurt a LOT more than a normal hold
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D3taylz
Member
According to the in-game data yes, but it's wrong.
Thx King! Back when DOA5 first came out someone uploaded a video on youtube regarding the frame data being off by 2 frames for every strike in the game. The video postulated that every strike's frame data was wrong, or like King said every strike needs 2 extra "active frames." Even though the video was for DOA5 it hasn't been fixed, and I think you even need to add the extra frames for throws too but I'm not 100%, if it's true though that means even standard 5 frame throws need 7 frames to hit.
Vigoorian King
Well-Known Member
It didn't need to be fixed, it's shown in move's details - that's the number between start up and recovery. Adding it to the start up would make it incorrect, as sometimes is see that move needs 3 frames to connect, but sometimes the same move needs only 2 frames. When it comes to throws - they have 1 active frame. So non-grappler 5T needs 6 frames to connect. BUT even if the advantage after the move will be +8 then you still can connect your 5T because throws can increase their active frames up to 3 (I'm not sure if all though).
D3taylz
Member
So in some cases a 5f throw is not guaranteed for a non-grappler at +6 (and even +7 in some cases) because the throw can take 2-3 extra frames to connect. I seem to remember testing something like that at you'd have to be at +7 for a 5f throw to be guaranteed.
Didn't know the move details listed the extra active frames, I will check that out later tonight.
Cheers.
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Vigoorian King
Well-Known Member
No. You don't need more then 1 active frame for throw to connect, just if the stun after hit is bigger than throw's start up throw can add active frames but no more than 3. So normal non-grappler 5T can have 6f start up, but it also can have 8f startup (not 9f start up though, because it would mean that you added 4 active frames and it's not possible I guess, but I would have to check this as I'm not sure).
D3taylz
Member
That more or less coincides with the tests I did but I never considered that a strike's/throw's active frames could fluctuate based on the stun caused by blocking, very interesting indeed.
Vigoorian King
Well-Known Member
You can see it all testing Rachel's 66T. It's an OH that leaves you at +7 on normal and +11 on counter. After +7 situation 5T will connect even though it's i5, 2 active frames are added. After +11 even 6T won't connect cause it's i7, the game won't let you add 4 active frames.
Although discussing these things is really good, I think this is the wrong place for talking about them, guys.
synce
Well-Known Member
If your character select cursor is lagging (for me this is way too often), do not pick P4 or better yet don't even buy her. This character doesn't belong in DOA unless they fix the netcode. And it's not an issue of timing, it's gravity. I swear when it lags everyone becomes a super ultra heavyweight. I remember Pai had the same problem in lag, and this kind of problem only exists in DOA. Never had such an issue in VF or Tekken or anything else
D3taylz
Member
Never played Tekken of VF online so I cant comment but I've played P4 with a decent connection and surprisingly I was able to perform her teleports. Not flawlessly of course but it was fairly consistent. I've seen some ridiculous online matches with Phase 4 on youtube so it is possible to play her well online, it's definitely dependant on the connection though.
Oh, I did not know that when I chose "fight" or "arcade" I'm still playing online, even when my opponent is stitting right next to me and I don't have an internet connection. So it looks like DOA does not have an offline mode, thanks a lot for opening my eyes!
...
Oh dear, better let people decide on their own what and when to buy and to play. She can be played very well online too like every other character in the game as long as the connection is half way decent.
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Here's my thing about Phase 4; She's not Kasumi, she does not play similiar to Kasumi, there is no resemblance in her game play to that of Kasumi. She has no "on block strings" or the kind of strings used to open you up. She has neutral pokes, P, K, 6P, 2P, 1P hi crush, etc. Her neutral game is a lot slower for a striker than the rest (sort of reminds me of Ayane, except Ayane actually has some on block strings).
She is not an offensive character, she's going to be a mix of pure fundamentals, patience, and good defense. This character's offense will happen after hit confirms into threshold, only. Once she hits the threshold, I believe this character will be really solid in that.
The teleport cancels are really something else and allow for mix ups in threshold no other character actually has. Her mix ups in threshold are not going to be any kind of usual set ups, it's going to be a lot of guessing for the defender in threshold due to the fact that Phase 4 can teleport and do what she wants afterward without an actual follow up to the teleport. This is scary.
I said the character is pretty awful due to her bad and slow neutral. But it's one I'm not totally unfamilar with because my main character is the same way in a sense (well not really, but I'm referring to the free canceling in "some" strings, not Ayane's generic free canceling), but she has more buttons and extremely fast access to her BT stance so that makes up for her neutral free cancelling and string delay (which is just fine for her anyway).
But Phase 4 does not have that kind of access, so she is a lot slower. But the fact that she has an advanced high punch hold means a lot, she can begin to control jabs in CQC when the Phase 4 player knows it's their opponent's go to button press so often. That hold leads into good damage or a potentially solid mix up (and possibility of a vortex).
This starts to remind me of Ayane's 64H mid punch hold, because Ayane gets access to the exact same rewards.
So I'll say this, I think I spoke too soon about saying Phase 4 is a terrible character. What's making me reconsider my thoughts is the amount of time I've spent in the lab last night after testing other things out with Ayane as well.
That "first layer" of Phase 4's combo execution is already enough to scare off anyone from the character that finds that stuff difficult. That implies it's not their type of character, or they just refuse to put time into getting that first layer down.
But after that first layer, comes the second, realizing you do not have block strings or reliable strings. And you're not allowed to have teleports off block for the simple fact that, that kind of offense would be incredibly brain dead, and unbalanced. It's certainly fine for it to be "hit confirm only" because it doesn't imply you can only teleport on stun, it says you can teleport "on hit confirm".
And like Allan said in the FSD podcast earlier today, LOTS of DOA players do not know how to recognize their own hit confirmation. This is the kind of character that will take more skill sets you'd see in street fighter and KOF, and Blazblue. Good recognition on hit confirms.
Plus, this character really does deal a lot of damage, not to mention her air throw from teleport does about 35 damage raw and doesn't scale at all. So any juggle leading into the air throw is picking up that 35 damage.
So, I've been thinking about it for a little while. I'll be retracting my earlier statements of saying Phase 4 is bad. And just say.....she's not for the typical kind of DOA player. She's a character that'll require good recognition of hit confirmation to get anywhere offensively. She will require good defensive manners, and patience. And you will need good fundamentals.
Otherwise, I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere with this character, at all. Not in high level play.
She is not an offensive character, she's going to be a mix of pure fundamentals, patience, and good defense. This character's offense will happen after hit confirms into threshold, only. Once she hits the threshold, I believe this character will be really solid in that.
The teleport cancels are really something else and allow for mix ups in threshold no other character actually has. Her mix ups in threshold are not going to be any kind of usual set ups, it's going to be a lot of guessing for the defender in threshold due to the fact that Phase 4 can teleport and do what she wants afterward without an actual follow up to the teleport. This is scary.
I said the character is pretty awful due to her bad and slow neutral. But it's one I'm not totally unfamilar with because my main character is the same way in a sense (well not really, but I'm referring to the free canceling in "some" strings, not Ayane's generic free canceling), but she has more buttons and extremely fast access to her BT stance so that makes up for her neutral free cancelling and string delay (which is just fine for her anyway).
But Phase 4 does not have that kind of access, so she is a lot slower. But the fact that she has an advanced high punch hold means a lot, she can begin to control jabs in CQC when the Phase 4 player knows it's their opponent's go to button press so often. That hold leads into good damage or a potentially solid mix up (and possibility of a vortex).
This starts to remind me of Ayane's 64H mid punch hold, because Ayane gets access to the exact same rewards.
So I'll say this, I think I spoke too soon about saying Phase 4 is a terrible character. What's making me reconsider my thoughts is the amount of time I've spent in the lab last night after testing other things out with Ayane as well.
That "first layer" of Phase 4's combo execution is already enough to scare off anyone from the character that finds that stuff difficult. That implies it's not their type of character, or they just refuse to put time into getting that first layer down.
But after that first layer, comes the second, realizing you do not have block strings or reliable strings. And you're not allowed to have teleports off block for the simple fact that, that kind of offense would be incredibly brain dead, and unbalanced. It's certainly fine for it to be "hit confirm only" because it doesn't imply you can only teleport on stun, it says you can teleport "on hit confirm".
And like Allan said in the FSD podcast earlier today, LOTS of DOA players do not know how to recognize their own hit confirmation. This is the kind of character that will take more skill sets you'd see in street fighter and KOF, and Blazblue. Good recognition on hit confirms.
Plus, this character really does deal a lot of damage, not to mention her air throw from teleport does about 35 damage raw and doesn't scale at all. So any juggle leading into the air throw is picking up that 35 damage.
So, I've been thinking about it for a little while. I'll be retracting my earlier statements of saying Phase 4 is bad. And just say.....she's not for the typical kind of DOA player. She's a character that'll require good recognition of hit confirmation to get anywhere offensively. She will require good defensive manners, and patience. And you will need good fundamentals.
Otherwise, I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere with this character, at all. Not in high level play.
I agree with everything, except what is said about her advanced high hold. Phase is not going to control anything more as other characters can do as well (with high crushes or their holds), since you are not reducing any risk in guessing. Not that you said something like that, but even if she can do kind of a vortex after it, it's still nothing that means a lot for her offensive imo.
Btw, I wonder how her advanced high hold opportunity can be considered as a vortex, since most pages describe a vortex as something like this:
I don't see how and what you are able to do (this) continually after you got one hold.
Btw, I wonder how her advanced high hold opportunity can be considered as a vortex, since most pages describe a vortex as something like this:
I don't see how and what you are able to do (this) continually after you got one hold.
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I said a possibility of a vortex, I didn't say there is one. And having the ability to use that kind of hold often on a player does mean you have more control more often than not. Because if a player is usually leaning towards jab strings as retaliation, Phase 4 is going to dish out good damage for trying to do so or mix up to rack up more. I am quite sure there is a possibility to start something like a strong 50/50 situation there, you just have to look and experiment with what you have. This is going to be a very strong tool, considering it's designed to control the fastest kind of strikes in the game.
This kind of situation occurs for Genfu often, as well as Ayane for her 64H mid punch hold. Where I can do 74 damage raw, or rack it up even higher through her ridiculous vortex and mix up I've created off of it. I can also control your 2P low jab poking in any stage with a ceiling because I can do 110 damage at a minimum just for holding your low punch.
Phase 4 is going to do the same with her high hold, it is there to keep those jabs and other high punches in check against players that're going to be lenient on those kind of strikes so often.
This kind of situation occurs for Genfu often, as well as Ayane for her 64H mid punch hold. Where I can do 74 damage raw, or rack it up even higher through her ridiculous vortex and mix up I've created off of it. I can also control your 2P low jab poking in any stage with a ceiling because I can do 110 damage at a minimum just for holding your low punch.
Phase 4 is going to do the same with her high hold, it is there to keep those jabs and other high punches in check against players that're going to be lenient on those kind of strikes so often.
So "control" does mean for you that you are able to kind of scare the opponent for using some moves because you are able to get big damage out of it? So Tina would "control" all kind of holds except low holds with her of her opponent high counter throw (don't know it's input) because she can take-off about 50% life if she's able to get it? I agree that Phase's high hold is a good tool to get some good damage, but using it to "control" something might be wishful thinking or is at least what I wouldn't agree with.
Furthermore, I still wonder what exactly would be possible to repeat after her hold allowing to use the term vortex or even think about it. You are using that term while talking about her advanced high hold, but it actually has nothing to do with it. There might be a vortex possible out of any of her teleports after a hit (like 66K), but that is independent of her hold.
*EDIT* Okay, if you are referring to the fact that the hold may allow to land a move that can start a vortex (if it exits), I agree. Quite confusing the way you wrote it.
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Control as in, you can keep certain things in check. Make the opponent aware that you have the power to dish out something scary if they want to use whatever that kind of tool is so often.
I can always use a better choice of words for this, but that is what I mean. Not control as in, you cannot do anything.
And once again, I said there's a possibility, that implies that there may or may not be something there. It's up to the individual to find out if it's there or not.
For what it's worth, I'll use Ayane's 3H+K. It's a bound stun on hit, majority will look and just think "okay I can probably just get a bit of guaranteed damage here if I follow up". They find a few cute juggles and some optimal ones. Everyone has stopped here, it is the end of the line for them with 3H+K. However, I take that tool and have broken it down much, much further. I have found ways to use frame traps off the bound hit knockdown. And I have found a definite okizeme set up for teching and non-teching situations.
You will be amazed at just how good the training mode actually is in this game. When you start really paying attention to the Move Details system (all 3 pages), and break down properties of strikes, throws, knockdowns of sorts, OHs, etc. You will be able to start seeing a deeper layer behind your character's tools. Because I can tell you right now, no one anywhere else has even thought about a possiblity of an oki set up off this long ranged strike.
Furthermore, this goes deeper, because this kind of thing just molds right into my other set ups from various tools. And all of them sync into another, essentially giving me my vortex. And I'll just leave it at that.
I can always use a better choice of words for this, but that is what I mean. Not control as in, you cannot do anything.
And once again, I said there's a possibility, that implies that there may or may not be something there. It's up to the individual to find out if it's there or not.
For what it's worth, I'll use Ayane's 3H+K. It's a bound stun on hit, majority will look and just think "okay I can probably just get a bit of guaranteed damage here if I follow up". They find a few cute juggles and some optimal ones. Everyone has stopped here, it is the end of the line for them with 3H+K. However, I take that tool and have broken it down much, much further. I have found ways to use frame traps off the bound hit knockdown. And I have found a definite okizeme set up for teching and non-teching situations.
You will be amazed at just how good the training mode actually is in this game. When you start really paying attention to the Move Details system (all 3 pages), and break down properties of strikes, throws, knockdowns of sorts, OHs, etc. You will be able to start seeing a deeper layer behind your character's tools. Because I can tell you right now, no one anywhere else has even thought about a possiblity of an oki set up off this long ranged strike.
Furthermore, this goes deeper, because this kind of thing just molds right into my other set ups from various tools. And all of them sync into another, essentially giving me my vortex. And I'll just leave it at that.
jjinkou2
Well-Known Member
You pique my curiosity here. How do you use these information? I just see a bunch of numbers but i'm really interested in knowing further.
The first page will tell you the following;
- Frame of a strike; 10 (2) 14 (Initial frame start up, how long it's active, and how much recover, in that order). That is what Ayane's i10 frame jab looks like as the frame data.
- Damage - How much damage a strike actually does (Phase 4's neutral K does 20 damage on neutral hit)
- Critical Damage - How much damage a strike does as a Critical Hit and in stun threshold. Also tells you if you're in Critical Level 1, 2, 2 Critical, 3 or 3 Critical (a 2 Critcal or 3 Critical means you have reached the highest point in that level of threshold, with 3 Critical being the highest point in the stun threshold).
- Status - Tells you whether you're standing, crouching, jumping or if a strike leaves you standing or in a crouching position, or squatting. Also tells you if something evades lows.
- Type - Tells you a strike's hit level, high/mid/low, if it tracks or not. Also tells you if something is a hold, throw, offensive hold, etc.
- Advantage - Tells you the amount of advantage a strike gives, whether it's + advantage or - disadvantage on hit or block. This lets you see how much advantage you get on a stun (a jab in threshold usually gives somewhere around +32 or more, making them a very potent strike in stun threshold because that hit advantage is so high).
- Combo Damage - Displays how much damage a combo/juggle can do, and how much max damage you can possibly get.
Page two basically explains the distance between both characters, the amount of reach for a strike, throw and offensive. The distance on a knockdown and knock back (as one under Knock Back). It also tells you whether something has Close Hit properties (meaning that strike deals more damage when hit confirmed up close) and whether or not it has ground strike properties (hits opponents on the ground).
Page three details out the frame interval of a strike for follow up and start up. It also says how big or small the window is to hold while in Critical stun from that kind of strike. Whether something can be side stepped safely or evaded, if someone is stagger escaping or not, if they are side stepping. It also shows how many frames it takes to crouch or stand, as well as how many frames it takes to turn around to face forward or backward.
Let's look at this as an example; 12(2) 24 | +2 | 27 | High | Tracking
This is Ayane's neutral K strike. It is a i12 frame high kick that is +2 on neutral hit, and does 27 damage on neutral hit. It tracks as well. And it has follow ups, KK enters threshold.
This bit of information tells me a lot of things, just from the first page alone;
It's a tracking high kick that, when looked at, shows some obvious strike length to it. This tells me right off the bat that this strike has good range on it, without me looking at the second page to check the Reach. It also does 27 damage on neutral hit. That is a lot of damage for single neutral poke, this let's me know that I have the ability to fight and fend off i12 strikes from characters who have a mid strike that's a frame faster than mine (Ayane's mids are i13 frames).
This also says I do not need to use my mid strikes to fight up close, and it also says it's a great range tool because of it's length. Combine the length with that damage output, it also tells me I can easily stuff a lot of different high/mid strike approaches from a lot of characters. Someone like Kasumi, for example, doesn't have a strike with damage higher than this to out prioritize it as she tries to get in.
It also tells me that it's a fine tool to use versus things like sabakis or special punch holds, or punch parries.
- Frame of a strike; 10 (2) 14 (Initial frame start up, how long it's active, and how much recover, in that order). That is what Ayane's i10 frame jab looks like as the frame data.
- Damage - How much damage a strike actually does (Phase 4's neutral K does 20 damage on neutral hit)
- Critical Damage - How much damage a strike does as a Critical Hit and in stun threshold. Also tells you if you're in Critical Level 1, 2, 2 Critical, 3 or 3 Critical (a 2 Critcal or 3 Critical means you have reached the highest point in that level of threshold, with 3 Critical being the highest point in the stun threshold).
- Status - Tells you whether you're standing, crouching, jumping or if a strike leaves you standing or in a crouching position, or squatting. Also tells you if something evades lows.
- Type - Tells you a strike's hit level, high/mid/low, if it tracks or not. Also tells you if something is a hold, throw, offensive hold, etc.
- Advantage - Tells you the amount of advantage a strike gives, whether it's + advantage or - disadvantage on hit or block. This lets you see how much advantage you get on a stun (a jab in threshold usually gives somewhere around +32 or more, making them a very potent strike in stun threshold because that hit advantage is so high).
- Combo Damage - Displays how much damage a combo/juggle can do, and how much max damage you can possibly get.
Page two basically explains the distance between both characters, the amount of reach for a strike, throw and offensive. The distance on a knockdown and knock back (as one under Knock Back). It also tells you whether something has Close Hit properties (meaning that strike deals more damage when hit confirmed up close) and whether or not it has ground strike properties (hits opponents on the ground).
Page three details out the frame interval of a strike for follow up and start up. It also says how big or small the window is to hold while in Critical stun from that kind of strike. Whether something can be side stepped safely or evaded, if someone is stagger escaping or not, if they are side stepping. It also shows how many frames it takes to crouch or stand, as well as how many frames it takes to turn around to face forward or backward.
Let's look at this as an example; 12(2) 24 | +2 | 27 | High | Tracking
This is Ayane's neutral K strike. It is a i12 frame high kick that is +2 on neutral hit, and does 27 damage on neutral hit. It tracks as well. And it has follow ups, KK enters threshold.
This bit of information tells me a lot of things, just from the first page alone;
It's a tracking high kick that, when looked at, shows some obvious strike length to it. This tells me right off the bat that this strike has good range on it, without me looking at the second page to check the Reach. It also does 27 damage on neutral hit. That is a lot of damage for single neutral poke, this let's me know that I have the ability to fight and fend off i12 strikes from characters who have a mid strike that's a frame faster than mine (Ayane's mids are i13 frames).
This also says I do not need to use my mid strikes to fight up close, and it also says it's a great range tool because of it's length. Combine the length with that damage output, it also tells me I can easily stuff a lot of different high/mid strike approaches from a lot of characters. Someone like Kasumi, for example, doesn't have a strike with damage higher than this to out prioritize it as she tries to get in.
It also tells me that it's a fine tool to use versus things like sabakis or special punch holds, or punch parries.
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