I hate when people say "you should never give up!"

[Lulu]

Believe it or not, punishment is EXTREMELY important in fighting games and easily gets overlooked. I have no problem losing a 1/3 to 1/2 my health if I make a fuck up that my opponent fully capitalized on. Especially because learning optimal punishments is not fucking easy and requires a lot of practice and training to do right. If you screw up, you'll be punished for it. Just like IRL.

Games are not RL.
I never said it wasn't important.... infact I'l say the only reason its important is because of how ridiculously cheap it is... just like IRL.
Why don't you mind losing half your health for a tiny mistake ? You do realise a normal person does mind when minor things have devasting consequencies, I'm willing to bet even you are not as easy going about other things to the same extent you are about Fighting Games, if I tiny slip sends you falling down the stairs, seriously injured, wouldn't you mind ? I certainly would, and I would be very annoyed if instead of people emlathising my plight, they just shrug their shoulders and say "thats just how it is".... imagine if doctors had that attitude towards Cancer.
why does this suddenly no longer apply in Fighting Games ? Actually forget that question... I doubt it has a real answer. So to keep things simple: Why don't you mind losing half your health over one tiny mistake ?

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Games are not RL.
I never said it wasn't important.... infact I'l say the only reason its important is because of how ridiculously cheap it is... just like IRL.
Why don't you mind losing half your health for a tiny mistake ? You do realise a normal person does mind when minor things have devasting consequencies, I'm willing to bet even you are not as easy going about other things to the same extent you are about Fighting Games, if I tiny slip sends you falling down the stairs, seriously injured, wouldn't you mind ? I certainly would, and I would be very annoyed if instead of people emlathising my plight, they just shrug their shoulders and say "thats just how it is".... imagine if doctors had that attitude towards Cancer.
why does this suddenly no longer apply in Fighting Games ? Actually forget that question... I doubt it has a real answer. So to keep things simple: Why don't you mind losing half your health over one tiny mistake ?

Because it reminds me to not make that mistake in the future. The reason why a lot of DOA players have shitty fundamentals is because the game can be too forgiving on defense compared to other games. Also, I have never heard anyone refer to punishment as "ridiculously cheap". Especially with reference to game where you can get CH, and then just mash holds to get out of your predicament.

 

[Lulu]

Because it reminds me to not make that mistake in the future. The reason why a lot of DOA players have shitty fundamentals is because the game can be too forgiving on defense compared to other games. Also, I have never heard anyone refer to punishment as "ridiculously cheap". Especially with reference to game where you can get CH, and then just mash holds to get out of your predicament.

Well.... you're hearing it now..... theres no other way to describe such a high reward off such minor punish other than ridiculously cheap. You would have heard this if you hung out with some noobs every once in a while.

But you can't avoid making Mistakes... the mistakes are what make the game playable.
And people sucking at DoA has get less to do with the hold system and more to do with how the tutorial was constructed.... or as you have seen several times before.... people not bothering to actually complete the tutorial at all.
I sincerely doubt people are skipping footsies and guarding because "Its No Biggie... I can take a hit". Its just a lack of proper guidance.
what I find extremely troubling is you actually think DoA is very Forgiving..... its not quite there yet. Hell some stages grant you the oppertunity to do 65 percent damage. Its still extremely harsh by..... well any other genre's standards. its like a Dark Souls player thinking very other game is Farmville..... hes not exactly putting things into perspective.

 

[Awesmic]

But you can't avoid making Mistakes... the mistakes are what make the game playable.
And people sucking at DoA has get less to do with the hold system and more to do with how the tutorial was constructed.... or as you have seen several times before.... people not bothering to actually complete the tutorial at all.

That's why this site exists... to inform and give you a full understanding of things the tutorial does not tell you, such as different types of unholdable stuns. Then with some self-sufficient time in free training, you can add this to your layer of strategy and improve how you play.

I sincerely doubt people are skipping footsies and guarding because "Its No Biggie... I can take a hit". Its just a lack of proper guidance.
what I find extremely troubling is you actually think DoA is very Forgiving

He's got DOA5 mixed up with DOA4... please forgive him. By comparison, DOA5 looks and plays very fair in most instances.

In DOA4, the game was so forgiving that you could hold out of any stun at any time, even during a wall splat. It was so forgiving that every move tracked your opponent, and true sidestepping was non-existent. Furthermore, it was so forgiving that offensive holds (which were once unique only to grappler classes) were universal to the entire roster, making sidestepping even more useless than it already was. Oh, and frame advantage? Forget that. The game was so forgiving that virtually everything you did either put you in neutral or in the negative (on block, mind you) and susceptible to being throw punished at any time, and even then you could just use holds anytime you were in doubt, because you had no reason to fear being stunned!

In short, DOA4 was a very heavily defensive game compared to other DOA titles. The best thing you could do was either throw punish or guess your way out of virtually anything. But it isn't completely without merit. IMO, it had a much more comprehensible ground game that was universal across the board (such as being fully in control of force teching your opponent in the direction you want them to), and it was the first 3D fighting game to implement ground bounce, which Tekken would soon imitate with Bounds in Tekken 6... but I digress. (Oh, and it was the last DOA to include Aerosmith.)

The only thing that wasn't forgiving about DOA4 was the unplayable end boss Alpha-152. You think she's a threat now? Shi--------------------t, that's nothing compared to back then.

 

[Lulu]

That's why this site exists... to inform and give you a full understanding of things the tutorial does not tell you, such as different types of unholdable stuns. Then with some self-sufficient time in free training, you can add this to your layer of strategy and improve how you play.


He's got DOA5 mixed up with DOA4... please forgive him. By comparison, DOA5 looks and plays very fair in most instances.

In DOA4, the game was so forgiving that you could hold out of any stun at any time, even during a wall splat. It was so forgiving that every move tracked your opponent, and true sidestepping was non-existent. Furthermore, it was so forgiving that offensive holds (which were once unique only to grappler classes) were universal to the entire roster, making sidestepping even more useless than it already was. Oh, and frame advantage? Forget that. The game was so forgiving that virtually everything you did either put you in neutral or in the negative and susceptible to being throw punished at any time, and even then you could just use holds anytime you were in doubt, because you had no reason to fear being stunned!

In short, DOA4 was a very heavily defensive game compared to other DOA titles. The best thing you could do was either throw punish or guess your way out of virtually anything. But it isn't completely without merit. IMO, it had a much more comprehensible ground game that was universal across the board (such as being fully in control of force teching your opponent in the direction you want them to), and it was the first 3D fighting game to implement ground bounce, which Tekken would soon imitate with Bounds in Tekken 6... but I digress. (Oh, and it was the last DOA to include Aerosmith.)

The only thing that wasn't forgiving about DOA4 was the unplayable end boss Alpha-152. You think she's a threat now? Shi--------------------t, that's nothing compared to back then.

I never played 4 And the way you talk about it makes is sound more broken than it is Forgiving... but atleast you acknowledge DoA 5 is a Fair Game. well by FG standards atleast.

 

[Awesmic]

I never played 4 And the way you talk about it makes is sound more broken than it is Forgiving... but atleast you acknowledge DoA 5 is a Fair Game. well by FG standards atleast.

At least now it is, to an extent.

Back in the days of vanilla DOA5, you had some characters with guard breaks that gave full frame advantage even if it wasn't fully charged.

 

[Lulu]

At least now it is, to an extent.

Back in the days of vanilla DOA5, you had some characters with guard breaks that gave full frame advantage even if it wasn't fully charged.

LoL I played vanilla but I didn't understand a single thing about the game back then...... I don't think I could tell the difference between me sucking and the game being imbalanced...... basicly I called foul everytime I lost to Hayabusa.
I heard Helena was something fierce back then.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Compared to pretty much any other fighting game, DOA5LR's tutorial & training tools are simply outstanding. You cannot fault TN in that area. SC, VF, & Tekken's tutorial tools are "meh" in comparison. To help out, I'm currently in the process of developing a guide to help explain some of the nuances to DOA5LR's mechanics & metagame.

 

[Lulu]

Compared to pretty much any other fighting game, DOA5LR's tutorial & training tools are simply outstanding. You cannot fault TN in that area. SC, VF, & Tekken's tutorial tools are "meh" in comparison. To help out, I'm currently in the process of developing a guide to help explain some of the nuances to DOA5LR's mechanics & metagame.

I can when only one of the 50 something tutorials is actually about Stagger Escaping.... its better than those other games indeed but its not perfect....
word on the Sreet is Killer Instinct's turorial is.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I can when only one of the 50 something tutorials is actually about Stagger Escaping.... its better than those other games indeed but its not perfect....
word on the Sreet is Killer Instinct's turorial is.

Point is it still covers a lot more than any other 3D fighter's tutorials (sans VF4 maybe). Couple that with the incredible Move Details and other training tools and you have a pretty damn good training system. If you want any other information, you go to FreeStepDodge.com.