Rachel match-up chart discussion

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
The thing with Rachel is that matchup data is pretty much discarded after she gets a solid hit in. The matchup we're discussing is really just how easily she can get that big hit. Characters like Ayane who can easily keep Rachel out for the entire round as well as give Rachel trouble up close are what I consider her biggest threats.
That's why I said Momiji is a bad matchup for Rachel, 'cause she can be used like a toned down Ayane... I'm pretty sure that vINv can vouch for me in this notion...
 
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Drake Aldan

Well-Known Member
Fort Walton Beach, FL
Main Character
PSN ID
DrakeAldan
Would this mean x MAD AXES x would have to revise the matchups he already put up? -_-
Yep.

Well, not like there are a lot up anyway (all of them are negative). I would drop them maybe 1-2 matches and that would probably be straight. Or maybe they're straight now.



The Rachel I play now is very stun heavy, very reliant on 66T OH and/or multiple mixups. The bad thing is that as you go down the line the 50/50s splinter which worsens your odds every time you attack in succession within stun. Also, playing with 66T is like playing with fire (either you get Hi-C'd or they get Hi-C'd, but because of the nature of things they get Hi-C'd much less than you do...)

I have not tested her on actual people yet but from what I can see her saving grace is just being in DOA; that is, you'll just have to outread your opponent, and hope they get distracted by all the mid punches.

Well, that, and 4P. 4P is still boss. I love you 4P.
 

x MAD AXES x

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Main Character
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x MAD AXES x
Momiji will defo be 5-5 imo now
Sarah, Christie, Ayane, Kasumi will go down or stay
Bass mu won't really change that much imo.

Shes's is definitely still viable just will have to rely on 66T, 2H+K to keep pressure.
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
Momiji will defo be 5-5 imo now
Sarah, Christie, Ayane, Kasumi will go down or stay
Bass mu won't really change that much imo.

Shes's is definitely still viable just will have to rely on 66T, 2H+K to keep pressure.
Yeah 2H+K, not like that move doesn't push the opponent a mile away on it already... but I do understand what you're saying. I'm still pretty mad that they didn't actually give her a low crush, and now she has the same 4PP as Hitomi lol (19i my ass, I'm joking, we're just going to have to use comon sense and adapt... the way it's supposed to be.)
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
California
Main Character
Ayane
Ayane vs Rachel is definitely favorable for Ayane. I found this out quickly within' one day's play time at a tournament in NorCal. I really don't believe Rachel is a top tier character. She was powerful because she was new, she's a gamble for a spot between high and mid tier, at best. Once you break her down and realize her overall game plan is just completely straight forward, you'll understand why.

She's a good character, but she certainly isn't dominating.
 
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RiBu

Active Member
Main Character
Lisa
I'd argue that Rachel vs Leon is probably 5-5. Neither character can really slow down the other one if they start to pressure, save countering. Rachel is also able to fully juggle Leon from her 12f grab, and qcbP in most cases. Leon kind of has an edge in overall damage, but since Rachel has setups I'd day it evens out. I'd probably say if her match-up with Leon is a 5-5 then the Bayman one would be 4-6 since it's along the same idea, just Bayman can get way more damage off his holds...
 
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vINv

Active Member
alaska
Main Character
Gamertag
vINvSesaro
I won't take anything he says seriously, 'cause he's already been proven to be not credible.
thats just rude but going back to the point rachel cant space momji doesnt need to beat rachel she just needs to run the clock after a few pokes 6-4momji and fyi sashi i get plenty of wins...on and offline. one more pt momji isnt effected by rachels weight all bnb combos work on rachel.
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
Rachel vs Lisa (4-6... possibly 5-5)
Rachel struggles immensely when it comes to fighting Lisa; 12i mids, great spacing and getaway tools, and a shitload of offensive holds that are able to crush Rachel's abundance of mids and highs. One weird occurrence, however, I grabbed a Lisa's 9T in midair for the air grab (sadly I haven't tested it yet, but I will today; this will change how I fight Lisa players with my Tina if it's an effective strat)
Back to the MU, the match up does find light for Rachel if the player's dash blocking is on par. Rachel doesn't really have to worry much when it comes to being in CQC with Lisa; when you follow up correctly and flood Lisa with mids, you defeat the purpose of her 4H+K and 1PP bull. Also, her 1K2K doesn't work against Rachel because you can actually 3T the second low of the string on NH. All of the things I have stated above are MUCH easier said than done (that's why I can't wholeheartedly say the MU is even)
On Rachel;s side however, Lisa throws out a lot of mid kicks so this means that you're getting a fair amount of launch holds. The only thing you really have to watch (that most people don't watch) is Lisa's hold damage. Lisa actually is the grappler in second place for Hi-Counter hold damage (Rachel being the first), and if you throw out too many mid punches, you can easily be eating a good 84 damage via Lisa's mid punch hold on Hi-Counter...
I see this MU the same way that I see the Rachel vs Ein MU (just harder for Rachel) Lisa just has better spacing and keep out tools than Rachel, Lisa also has a faster mid than Rachel so that's something else to look out for. I should also add that Lisa has better all around frames than Rachel too (P+K +5i, 66K6 +2i, 2H+K +1i, 6H+K +2i)

Match Up notes:
  • PK ,6P and 6K very often so you don't have to worry about punishing
  • Not too many mid punches due to LIsa's mid punch hold damage
  • Dash block (3K range) because if you give up space, you're at risk of being OH'd
  • Punish 1PP
  • If a Lisa tries Carrera follow ups that don't work, 7P for a quick launch
  • CHASE DOWN 4H+K, if you block a 4H+K start offense immediately
  • Try to avoid getting caught up in BT mix-ups because they got insanely buffed this game
  • Try to play slightly safer than usual because Lisa has a wider range of punishing capabilities
  • Highly varying mix-ups from the tick throw set-ups that I gave out earlier to avoid getting crushed or counter grabbed (because Lisa has faster grabs than Rachel)
  • If you're going to throw out a hold, make sure it is accurate; Lisa can stun you deep enough to the point at which you have to hold, and if you fall for a grab set-up, the range game can easily be reset.



Tina vs Rachel coming soon
 
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Batcommander

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Main Character
Great job on the Lisa matchup. I used to think this was like 7-3 Lisa, but i think its now closer to even, maybe 5.5 Lisa.

Additional tips:

low OH will eat Lisa's 1P if you think she's going to use it to crush.

4K is a good tool to keep lisa honest at mid, since 1P got a speed nerf in 5u. It's also safe too, lisa can get easy 80-90 throw punish at -7 and up, so be careful.

dont try to crush anything after a blocked 66K(lisa dropkick). It got buffed to +6 on block in 5u and the cross chop followup can now beat anything thrown at it afterwards.

lisa's jumping OH's dont have tracking, save for the carrera one, and the new rolling one from BT. you can freestep or use 2/8 P+K against them.
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
Great job on the Lisa matchup. I used to think this was like 7-3 Lisa, but i think its now closer to even, maybe 5.5 Lisa.

Additional tips:

low OH will eat Lisa's 1P if you think she's going to use it to crush.

4K is a good tool to keep lisa honest at mid, since 1P got a speed nerf in 5u. It's also safe too, lisa can get easy 80-90 throw punish at -7 and up, so be careful.

dont try to crush anything after a blocked 66K(lisa dropkick). It got buffed to +6 on block in 5u and the cross chop followup can now beat anything thrown at it afterwards.

lisa's jumping OH's dont have tracking, save for the carrera one, and the new rolling one from BT. you can freestep or use 2/8 P+K against them.
I forgot to throw in SS-ing the 9T, thanks for telling me that.

I'm pretty sure most people playing Rachel with common sense wouldn't challenge anything with good plus frames on block; she doesn't have a high priority move that beats other moves out that often. So IMO if I'm doing Rachel vs Lisa with Rachel, I ain't challenging no Carrera nothing, just watch the move animation and parry/punish accordingly... right?

As for 1P OH-ing, I only tell people to try and OH VERY VERY easy to spot moves, 1P OH-ing is kinda sketchy when you try to OH it.

I also prefer 3K over 4K despite 4K's distance advantage and frames. I choose 3K because it more easily gives you tick throw set-ups, and can get up to +22i on Counter Hit... of course you get the same stuff from 4K, but 3K's animation looks more similar to other moves she has than 4K does...
 
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Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
Battle for DOUBLE D Tier
Rachel vs Tina 5-5
This is actually one of Rachel's better MUs, so these games are usually even in playstyles, accurate punish-hold trade-off, and they're always pretty fun to boot. They have very similar frames ('cause Rachel was assumed to be a blend if Tina and Spartan) 13i mids, evasive stances (Rachel's 8P+K and Tina's 3P+K,) and tick throw setups galore. Rachel definitely doesn't need to worry about getting beat out by Tina, instead she needs to worry about getting crushed. Tina has four high crushes, and four low crushes, throw in a plethora of OHs and if you from habits, Tina can give you a headache.You kind of need to be wary of Tina's OHs because if you're safe, slightly negative, and you follow up, Tina can 66T or 46T>426T for a little bit of damage (even 8T crushes wake-up and a bunch of other shit)... but more importantly it will break your pressure.
If the Tina player can effectively SS Rachel's strings, the CQC game in the MU is even because Tina is usually working some pretty dirty stun game while Rachel is poking away at your health. Tina does however have the option of spacing, but not as well as Lisa can, so she might as well play the CQC game with Rachel. Where Rachel will struggle, is if she gets caught in deep stun; Tina's stun game can usually run so deep that you have to to run the risk of holding... Tina likes people who hold, so makes sure you're holds are accurate. Other than trying to spot her lows (so you can 3T them) you'll be fine.

Match Up notes:
  • You're pretty even in frames so don't worry about getting beat out on mad shit
  • Avoid abusing highs or lows, because you WILL GET CRUSHED
  • Be careful if put in deep stun because your holding will have to be precise if you don't want to eat 100+ damage for every stun encounter
  • If the Tina you're playing has a tendency of using lows, get your low OH game up
  • In CQC with Tina, avoid using super linear strings (you should be doing this anyway)
  • Stuff SS attempts with plenty of 4P>FC>PKs, PPKs, and H+Ks
  • This is one of the MUs where Rachel can be Rachel, sniff for CHs and tick throws (Shark in the Water)
  • Play a little bit safer (as you would Lisa) because she has better punishing capabilities
  • Tina actually has some pretty good tracking so really know something is linear before yo throw out a SS or 8/2P+K
  • Work your 6T set-ups often (if you have them, if you don't, I will post some up in this thread when I get them together)
 
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UncleKitchener

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Standard Donor
I also feel that Lisa plays the Rachel matchup like a watered-down version of the Rachel vs Momiji matchup abusing 4H+K and the constant OHs the same way Momiji's 2H+K and 7K are used, but IMO this matchup is slightly harder than that of the Rachel vs Momiji matchup due to the fact that Lisa has a higher hit-for-hit damage output, guaranteed juggles, and a bunch of gay ass mixup lol (I was kinda wondering if some fellow Lisa players could give me some supporting insight on the matchup... AkaShocka. Kitchener you know the grapplers pretty well don't you? Do have any input either?)
My only input is that the character should've never been made in the first place and whoeverplays the character is a horrible person in my book.
 
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Viper Excess

Member
Bronx, NY
3DS Friend Code
2062-9146-6044
PSN ID
Viper_Excess
Battle for DOUBLE D Tier
Rachel vs Tina 5-5

Other than trying to spot her lows (so you can 3T them) you'll be fine.
  • If the Tina you're playing has a tendency of using lows, get your low OH game up
I know that it's probably an oversight, but 3T isn't only for lows. It can be used for any high crush that keeps the opponent near waist level (like Helena's P+K), and the move does not have to hit low. You emphasize using it for low moves, but Tina has high crushes that don't hit low and 3T can be used for them too.
 
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Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
I know that it's probably an oversight, but 3T isn't only for lows. It can be used for any high crush that keeps the opponent near waist level (like Helena's P+K), and the move does not have to hit low. You emphasize using it for low moves, but Tina has high crushes that don't hit low and 3T can be used for them too.
Like I said to people who have made similar comments, lows would definitely be easier to catch than mids; most lows stay in crouch animations for longer amounts of time; therefore, allowing them to be interrupted easier (like slow lows are easy as shit to grab to grab on reaction anyway.)
If you want to make it seem that way, YOU should be punishing every move with a crouching animation with 3T.. right?
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
Does a Raijin count as a DEMON?
Rachel vs Hayate 7-3
Hot damn, this match is hell on earth... Hayate vs Rachel (if the Hayate is good) is very hard to win for Rachel; it's not as bad as Ayane vs Rachel, but it's better than the Momiji vs Rachel. Hayate has faster moves, more crushes, and a really good spacing game. Your best friends in this match-up are 6T,4K/3K, 4PP, and 6H (mid kick hold.)
In this MU Rachel needs to watch for Hayate's 6PK, that's one of his better keep-out tools... luckily it's punishable (-7i), so if you block one, that's a 6T and a start to your offense, if your holding is on point, you can simply hold the K and get a free 80 damage. You also have to be wary of his 2/8P+KP because it's very evasive, it SSs and it high crushes so watch out for what strings you choose to throw out. Fortunately 2/8P+KP is punishable as well (-9i), so if you block that move 6T to get your offense going. Make sure that your holding on Hayate's 3H+K is good as well because if it's not, you're goiing to have to deal with the mixup that comes from the string. Rachel's jumping mid kick counter is a launcher as well so be prepared to combo when it connects) Like most of her other bad MU situations, Hayate can space Rachel out with his 2H+K. Low countering this move is ill-advised because how low kick hold knocks the opponent across screen; thus, resetting the spacing scenario. When Hayate puts you into stun, yo also have to be vary cautious; he's got the Raijin and Baby Raijin combo throws that can be used as launch combos, and back-turn set-ups as well. If Hayate gets you into a deep stun scenario (though you should be doing this in general,) be patient, his CB animation is very easy to watch for and many of his high damage launchers are easy to spot as well. Hayate's regular combo damage takes a big blow from Rachel's weight, and this is why I said that you really have to be wary of BT combos and Raijin set-ups, most Hayate players will do this rather than regular combos to make up for the damage they lose. If you see that these set-ups are coming far too frequently, punish them for their greed; you can slow escape a lot of Hayate's BT setups and counter accordingly, and for grab set-ups, you start your offense when you see a grab set-up on the way.
In this MU, a lot of your damage can definitely come from punishing and interrupts. Hayate is not only pretty unsafe on block, but IMO his free-canceling isn't too much to scream about. If you instill a worry of getting interrupted, the opponent will either commit to more strings rather than free-canceling, or single poking and blocking. Depending on which option the Hayate player favors, your approach will either open up more grab opportunities, or more holding opportunities. The reason that I stated 4k/3K as one of Rachel's key moves in tis MU, was because they are some of her better come-in tools, they also offer tick throw set-ps on NH and deep stun mix-ups on CH. 6T is there as a prominent anti-Hayate tool because it will be your main source of punishing, and one of your key offense starters (+3-4i on tech roll and allows for stomp set-ups.) Your 4PP is of course used to nullify any evasive move attempts... and her mid kick hold is to nullify a lot of the launchers, spacing moves, and stun/crush moves in Hayate's arsenal.

Match Up notes:
  • Avoid being too linear to prevent getting crushed by 2/8P+KP
  • Be wary of your followups in CQC; Hayate's 12i 6PK can be easily used to interrupt your offense and create space.
  • Hold or 6T punish any blocked 6PKs
  • Watch out for any "greedy" attempts to go for massive damage (BT combos, Hi-Counter Raijin)
  • Try not to hold any low kicks because they reset spacing scenarios, instead block and punish accordingly
  • Patience in dash blocking and mid kick holding during spacing scenarios will make it much easier to get back into CQC
  • Finish combos with enders that keep Hayate close to you (6KP, 6PKP)
  • Be wary of SS-ing Hayate because he has a mild amount of tracking options; one of which can lead to BT combos or grab set-ups
  • Punish most of his unsafe pokes (1K for example) and interrupt during most of his free-cancels
  • Most importantly, take full advantage of CQC scenarios because Hayate can easily interrupt or evade some of your offense to reset the spacing scenarios... otherwise you'll be okay... HEY at least it ain't Ayane lol
Next MU(s):Rachel vs Leon, and Rachel vs Bayman
 
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