Rachel match-up chart discussion

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
I found the mid-oriented characters like hitomi and helena can give Rachel a run for her money; she has no highs to crush or duck, and then since her defensive options are complete ass, you run the risk of having to try and counter something to get back on offense. She also has a struggle with leifang and brad because a good chunk of their offense comes from lows, and since Rachel lacks a striking low crush, and her low OH doesn't crush early in the animation, her defense against lows is terrible (IMO) What do you guys think about those matchups?
 

Nobus3r1

Member
I found the mid-oriented characters like hitomi and helena can give Rachel a run for her money; she has no highs to crush or duck, and then since her defensive options are complete ass, you run the risk of having to try and counter something to get back on offense. She also has a struggle with leifang and brad because a good chunk of their offense comes from lows, and since Rachel lacks a striking low crush, and her low OH doesn't crush early in the animation, her defense against lows is terrible (IMO) What do you guys think about those matchups?
Haven't played enough Hitomi's to weigh in on that matchup but even the ass-tastic Helena's I've encountered have been very problematic.
 

AkaShocka

Well-Known Member
Main Character
La Mariposa
I found the mid-oriented characters like hitomi and helena can give Rachel a run for her money; she has no highs to crush or duck, and then since her defensive options are complete ass, you run the risk of having to try and counter something to get back on offense. She also has a struggle with leifang and brad because a good chunk of their offense comes from lows, and since Rachel lacks a striking low crush, and her low OH doesn't crush early in the animation, her defense against lows is terrible (IMO) What do you guys think about those matchups?
I also realized that characters like Hitomi and Helena give Rachel a tough time.
Well Helena's mixs up gives everyone a hard time. I don't know much about Hitomi so I can't really say much. The top tier characters also give Rachel a tough time. I've seen Kasumi players (good Kasumi players) eat Rachel alive, Christie and Ayane's shenanigans, spacing, and crushing moves just makes Rachel look pitiful. And Sarah..... I don't really have to explain that one now do I?
 
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RubinRoon

Member
Germany
Main Character
Tina Armstrong
PSN ID
RubinRoon
This is similar to what I told the guys at my locals. I just crouch block after PP. The throw whiffs and the kick is blocked. Her mid option knocks back, which mean you spend a tiny bit of health to get good spacing (IaMP tactics!). Free cancel options are easily reactable.
Isn`t her pp4p a problem then? It gives you +1 on neutral and a +13 sds on ch. She could continue pressure with that move, I think, or at least mix up the situation.
 

x MAD AXES x

Member
Main Character
Gamertag
x MAD AXES x
Isn`t her pp4p a problem then? It gives you +1 on neutral and a +13 sds on ch. She could continue pressure with that move, I think, or at least mix up the situation.
You can fuzzy guard all options after pp, ppp gets blocked, ppt gets ducked, ppk get ducked and pp4p gets blocked.
so even then she has to delay them fully, which everything but ppp can be punished.
 
Houston,Texas
Main Character
Gamertag
THe NeW Mmm17
Rachels 4K is super good, when im getting spaced out, i take it slow til i seen an opening with get a counter hit 4K which puts them in stun, 4K has great range and at the right position it can beat out almost anything, kinda like a Tina's 4K. 4K is good for spacing and coming in, and 4PP is good for hitting people when they try to SS, i usually use this after i block someones string bcuz they always want to SS after. 4PP will tighten them right up
 

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Anyone got experience against the Rig matchup? I play both characters, but I haven't tried testing my Rig against my local Rachels yet. No Rigs in my scene besides me either.
 

DontForkWitMe

Well-Known Member
Throwing my 2 cents in, Similar to Wahs reasonings for Bass i feel the Leon matchup with her is 6-4 in Leons favor.

They may seem similar at first glance but Leons damage output is much higher and is arguably the highest of the entire cast when you factor in environmental damage on top of his already high damage potential. Leon also has better and more guardbreaks with his normal ones granting up to+3 through +5 while chargeable ones granting up to +8 through +14 and can be used in the middle of strings adding built-in string delays improving upon his already solid mix up game.

As far as throws go Leon beats her out easily with his hi damage air grab, desert falcon, dervish throw, and fireman carry throw which all grant ground grabs if the opponent doesn't tech and all have potential dangerzone damage added on for further hurt especially since his air throw is controllable. his special wake up OH when face down stuffs any stomp FT attempt she has giving him hi-counter damage and limiting her FT setups on him.

comparing both their striking abilities also grants Leon the advantage. tracking unblockable, 2in1's, sitdown setups with guaranteed launchers,charge attacks, and high/low, mid/low, and better lows in general not to mention his unique ability to charge his CB attack potentially giving him max threshold burst off a single stun.

overall Leon beats her out in pretty much every category and her one saving grace against him is her FT stomp
 
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Nobus3r1

Member
As far as throws go Leon beats her out easily with his hi damage air grab, desert falcon, dervish throw, and fireman carry throw which all grant ground grabs if the opponent doesn't tech and all have potential dangerzone damage added on.for further hurt especially since his air throw is controllable. his special wake up OH when face down stuffs any stomp FT attempt she has giving him hi-counter damage and limiting her FT setups on him.
I agree with most of what you've said but I'm pretty sure that the Rachel player can tailor their air throw follow-ups to control whether the opponent is face up or face down for the stomp. This might be weight class dependent and probably merits more testing.
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
Anyone got experience against the Rig matchup? I play both characters, but I haven't tried testing my Rig against my local Rachels yet. No Rigs in my scene besides me either.
If the Rig player is playing correctly, the Rig v Rachel matchup can be either better than the Rachel v Sarah matchup or just a watered down version. Rig's mids from Bending seem to give me more trouble than Sarah's FS 6K ever could, and also Rig has slightly scarier lows and I usually find that Rig players high a more varied mixup than Sarah. Rig's are more mids and lows with the occasional high so that doesn't give Rachel a lot to crush... Rig has a lauch grab, and also a frame advantage grab from Bending, so the countering factor in the matchup is intensified for Rachel. For Rachel to get through this matchup with little resistance she has to keep offense up, and crushing going (1P, not 1PP, you're more likely to get the opponent to counter with a single 1P.) Also pay attention to move animation sot that you can spot the mid kicks (for mid kick launch parry) and the low kicks (90 dmg on Hi-Counter.) If you don't treat this matchup with caution and respect Rig's frame advantage you'll get eaten alive as a Rachel player.

PS: also stay in Rig's ass 'cause he's got few spacing moves that are going to piss you off... Good luck, I hope my strats helped...
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
The Kasumi vs Rachel matchup has truly gotten both easier and harder due to the changes since DOA1.03... the increased delay and new grab have both helped and hindered Rachel greatly (I'm exaggerating a little...) Fighting Kasumis now, I see all of the mid low or high low strings much, much easier, this means, a lot more vortex-starting mid punch parries, and more 90 dmg Hi-Counter low kick parries. There's also the various high strings that leave Rachel open for crushing oportunites... BUT the addition of Kasumis new 46T grab can throw a monkey wrench into Rachels offensive options (her OH AND 426T grab 'cause it comes out faster) Playing offline with a really experienced Kasumi/Ayane player helped me discover this the hard way; if they sniff a PPT, 66T, or 426T setup coming, they(she) actually stuff the setup with the grab. If there are other Kasumis out there that effectively use this move to stuff Rachel setups, then Rachel players have to kind of be on the lookout in general because that means that any character can stuff Rachel setups with a quick grab...
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
Okay, onto one of the characters that I feel is a direct conterpick for Rachel... Momiji. Momiji has spacing, better frames, faster pokes, and UNIVERSAL HIGH DAMAGE JUGGLES (this means no "heavyweight Rachel crybabies" 'cause she only juggles EVERYBODY.) Her 2H+K more than outspaces Rachel's movelist, and then her vast mid strings are more than annoying enough to make any Rachel player want to pull their hair out... and don't get me started on 7K. I die laughing every time I get smacked with that move while I'm trying to start up offense or work a mixup (not that they use the move as a crutch, just that the Momiji players that I practice against use the move to it's full potential.) Then, as I have stated before, there's always the frame advantage matchup... Momiji can get her frame advantage for days if a Rachel isn't completely on point with their parrying 'cause 6KK and 6PKK are +14i on block and offer such a plethora of options, you'd rather go back to Momiji spacing than deal with the mixup on block or in stun.
This matchup definitely isn't impossible. It just takes an absurd amount of patience; if you're playing with tournament rules (3-60 second rounds) you have to be kind of quick about it. You have to make sure your dash canceling is on point, and be sure to not use her come-in tools (both of the animations are pretty easy to read.) The goal is to take as any whiff punishes and stand-still grabs (moments where you grab someone for just standing there blocking) as possible. The second that you start the blender, be sure not to throw to many lows or highs, heavily delay strings, and grab the opponent with 6T or catch them with 4PP if they SS. Other than that, step your mid kick parry game up, and be sure to study up on move recognition. If you practice up enough it's still a difficult ass matchup to have to trifle with... but I'm not going to lie, it's fun as shit to play out.
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
Kansas City, MO
Main Character
Rachel
Gamertag
Hey itz Bebop
I also feel that Lisa plays the Rachel matchup like a watered-down version of the Rachel vs Momiji matchup abusing 4H+K and the constant OHs the same way Momiji's 2H+K and 7K are used, but IMO this matchup is slightly harder than that of the Rachel vs Momiji matchup due to the fact that Lisa has a higher hit-for-hit damage output, guaranteed juggles, and a bunch of gay ass mixup lol (I was kinda wondering if some fellow Lisa players could give me some supporting insight on the matchup... AkaShocka. Kitchener you know the grapplers pretty well don't you? Do have any input either?)
 

x MAD AXES x

Member
Main Character
Gamertag
x MAD AXES x
Okay, onto one of the characters that I feel is a direct conterpick for Rachel... Momiji. Momiji has spacing, better frames, faster pokes, and UNIVERSAL HIGH DAMAGE JUGGLES (this means no "heavyweight Rachel crybabies" 'cause she only juggles EVERYBODY.) Her 2H+K more than outspaces Rachel's movelist, and then her vast mid strings are more than annoying enough to make any Rachel player want to pull their hair out... and don't get me started on 7K. I die laughing every time I get smacked with that move while I'm trying to start up offense or work a mixup (not that they use the move as a crutch, just that the Momiji players that I practice against use the move to it's full potential.) Then, as I have stated before, there's always the frame advantage matchup... Momiji can get her frame advantage for days if a Rachel isn't completely on point with their parrying 'cause 6KK and 6PKK are +14i on block and offer such a plethora of options, you'd rather go back to Momiji spacing than deal with the mixup on block or in stun.
This matchup definitely isn't impossible. It just takes an absurd amount of patience; if you're playing with tournament rules (3-60 second rounds) you have to be kind of quick about it. You have to make sure your dash canceling is on point, and be sure to not use her come-in tools (both of the animations are pretty easy to read.) The goal is to take as any whiff punishes and stand-still grabs (moments where you grab someone for just standing there blocking) as possible. The second that you start the blender, be sure not to throw to many lows or highs, heavily delay strings, and grab the opponent with 6T or catch them with 4PP if they SS. Other than that, step your mid kick parry game up, and be sure to study up on move recognition. If you practice up enough it's still a difficult ass matchup to have to trifle with... but I'm not going to lie, it's fun as shit to play out.
Look at some Momiji stuff as moves likt 6PKK that put Momiji into the air can be fuzzy guarded, Momiji can play the spacing game and get whiffs with 66k or 66pp but both these are punishable by 4T. Momiji has to play this mu very safe and cautious, unfortunately this means she isn't really getting much reward and once she lets up Rachel will make her pay.

6-4 Rachels favor imo could be 5-5 at best.
 

StrikerSashi

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Toronto
Main Character
Eliot
Gamertag
StrikerSashi
PSN ID
StrikerSashi
The thing with Rachel is that matchup data is pretty much discarded after she gets a solid hit in. The matchup we're discussing is really just how easily she can get that big hit. Characters like Ayane who can easily keep Rachel out for the entire round as well as give Rachel trouble up close are what I consider her biggest threats.
 
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