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Safe Moves on Block and Their Mechanism.

Crext

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Hello, just transferring a topic from DOAWorld.

I'll make a setup that gives the possibility to see what are safe moves on block, including frame traps and so on.

In this first section I'll present frame advantage/disadvantage on block, and it will then depend on the follow up move, in order to tell if it is safe or close to safe moves.

In the second section I'll present frames for the fastest/most likely follow up attacks.

Logic in general would be:
Frames to hit opponent < Opponents hit frames = You will hit (unless block)
Frames to hit opponent < Frame advantage + Opponents hit frames = You will hit (unless block)
Frames to hit opponent < Frame advantage = You will hit (not blockable)
Frames to hit opponent = Opponents hit frames = Highest damage wins (in 5U) (In 5 it is speed on character)

Example:
Hitomi's :P: :P: :6: :P: :K: will give -1 frame on block, and initial start up is 10 frames.
Bass's lowest frame attack is 13.

So if Hitomi spam this move the setup between the sets will be 10 < -1 + 13 = 12 if Bass retaliates => Hitomi wins.
She will do this every time between the movesets if Bass keeps blocking and wait for an opening at the string end.
Unless Bass either Hold, Crouch last move (or attack between :P: :P: and :6: :P: :K:), then he won't be able to retaliate.
However, Christie's :P: got 9 frames, so she can retaliate after ended moveset because:
10 is not < -1 + 9 = 8 => Christie wins.

For more information watch Emperor Cow's "Strike Video".

My source will be FSD's Frame Data where these exist.
Other vice it will be field testing or input by others.

Corrections would be more than welcome.

Akira: (Incomplete - pending 5U)
:6::P+K: = 16
:6: :P: :4: :P: = 13 GB
:2::P+K: = 12
:4::3::P: ,:2:/:8::P+K: = 6 GB
:3::H+K:,:P:,:2:/:8::P+K: = 6 GB
:2::H+K::P: ,:2:/:8::P+K: = 6 GB
:8: :P+K: = 6 GB
:6: :6: :P: = 5
:214::P: = 1 to 5
:2_::6::P::P: = +0
:P: = 1
hicon_right.png
:P: = 1
:4: :6: :P: = 1
:4: :3: :P: = -1
:4: :P: = -2
:4: :P: :P: = -3
:8: :P: = -3
:2: :P: = -3



Alpha152:
No data - Pending


Ayane:
:2: :3: :6: :H+K: = 23 (GB)
:P: :P: :4: :P: :P: :K: = 23 (GB)
:P+K: :P: :K: = 23 (GB)
:P: :P: :K: :K: :2: :K: or similar end = 19 (GB)
:1: :H+K: = 19 (GB)
:9: :P: :9: = 18
In Shimo Stance :K: :K: :2: :K: = 17 (GB)
:6: :P: :9: = 15
:P: :P: :6: :P: :9: = 15
:1: :P:
icon_+.png
:K: = 14 (GB)
:9: :P: :3: = 13
:6: :P: :3: = 10
:P: :P: :6: :P: :3: = 10
:P+K: :P: and :9: or :3: or :1:= 7
:P: :P: :4: :P: :P: and :9: or :3: or :1: = 7
:P: :P: :P: :P: = 5 (GB)
In Soka stance :P: = 5 (GB)
:K: :6: = 3
:P: :P: :K: :6: = 2
:6: :6: :K: :K: :4: = 1
:P: :P: :6: :K: :K: :4: = 1
:3: :K: :K: :6: = 0
:3: :H+K: = 0
:6: :K: = 0
:P: = -1


Bass:
:1: :P+K: (fully charged) = 24 (GB)
:7: :P+K: = 16 (GB)
:7: :P: :P: (charged) = 10 (GB)
:4: :P: :P: :P: = 6 (GB)
:1: :P+K: (semi-charged) = 6 (GB)
:2: :3: :6: :P+K: = 4 (GB)
:6: :6: :K: = 3 (GB)
:P: :P: :K: = 2 (GB)
Back turned :P+K: = 1 (GB)
:6: :6: :P+K: = 0 (GB)
:2: :P+K: :P+K: = -2 (GB)
:P: :K: :P: = -2
:P: = -2
:3: :K: :P: = -2

Bayman: (Incomplete - pending 5U)

ROLL :P+K: +9
:6::6::P+K: is +9.
:236::K: = +1


Brad:
No data - Pending


Christie:
No data - Pending


Ein:
No data - Pending


Eliot:
:4: :H+K: (fully charged) = 18
:6: :6: :P+K: = 4
:2: :3: :6: :P: = 2
:P: = -1
:4: :H+K: (not charged) = -1

Gen Fu:
No data - Pending

Ryu Hayabusa: (Incomplete - pending 5U)
:P::P: :4::P::K: // :4::P::K: = +9
:214::P: = +2
:3::H+K: = +2
:6::6::K: = +6 and into Ongyoin
:3::3::P::4_: = +1 and into Ongyoin
Ongyoin :6::P::4_: = +1 and into Ongyoin again
:K::K: = +0
:3::3::P::K: = +0
:4::6::H+P: = +10 with back-turned opponent.
Ongyoin :8::P: = +9


Hayate: (pending 5U)
:1::P+K: (charged) = +14
:6::P+K:, :P: = +7
:4::P:,:6::P+K:,:P: = +7
:P::P::2::K:,:6::P+K:,:P: = +7
:6::K::P: = +7

:P::P::P::[[P]]: = +3
:P::P::6_: :[[P]]: = +3
:6::6: :P::[[P]]: = +3
:9: :P::[[P]]: = +3
:4::P::6::P: = +3
:6: :[[p+k]]: = +3
:3::4::K::P: = +2
:214::K: = +2
:236::K: = +1
:8: :8:/:2::2:, :K: = +0

Throw Advantages
:236::F: = +9


Helena: (Incomplete - pending 5U)
:1::K::[[P]]: > +9 (When fully charged)
:H+K: = +7
:P::P::K: (BT) > +7
:6::6::K::P::[[P]]: > +2 (When fully charged)
:236::P+K: = +1 and into Bokuho

Hitomi:
:4: :P+K: (charged) = 24 (GB)
:1: :P+K: (charged) (CP) = 17 (GB)
:2: :P+K: :P: (charged) = 8 (GB)
:3: :K: :P: :P: (charged) = 8 (GB)
:P: :P: :P: (charged) = 8 (GB)
:4: :P+K: (not charged) = 5 (GB)
:4: :P: :P: :P: (charged) = 4 (GB)
:P+K: :P: :P: (charged) = 3 (GB)
:6: :6: :H+K:= 3 (GB)
:2: :3: :6: :K: = -1 (Also for all moves ending with this)
:P: = -1 (turn back)
:P: = -2
:6: :H+K: = -2
:P+K: = -3
:6: :P: :P: :P: = -3
:6: :P+K: = -3


Hold Advantages
:1:
H.png
(Low Kick) = 5
:9:
H.png
= 7

Throw Advantages
:6:
F.png
= 10


Jacky:
No data - Pending

Jann Lee:
No data - Pending

Kasumi:
:4: :P+K: (charge) = 13 GB
:9: :P: :K: :P+K: = 1 GB
:4: :4: :P: = -3
:P: = -3
:6: :6: :K: :K: = -3
:2: :P: = -4
:8: :K: = -5
:4: :K: :K: = -5
:P: :P: = -5

Kokoro:
:1: :P+K: (fully charged) = 18
:P: :P: :2: :K: :P+K: :P+K: = 2
Heichu :P+K: = 2
:P+K: = 1
:8: :P: :6: :P: = 0
:4: :P: :P: = 0
:4: :1: :2: :P: = 0
:1: :P+K: (not charged) = 0
:P: :6: :P: :6: :P: (back turned) = 0
:P: = -2
:P: :P: :P: = -3
:6: :P: :P: :P: = -3
:4: :P: :P: :P: = -3
:6: :6: :P: = -4


Lei Fang: (Incomplete - pending 5U)
:4::P::P::[[P]]: = +11
:6::H+K: = +5
:8::K::K: = +5
:1::P+K: = +5
Unshu :H+P: = +20


Leon:
No data - Pending


Lisa:
No data - Pending


Mila:
:4: :P+K: (charged) = 17 (GB)
:7: :K: (charged) = 15 (GB)
:6: :6: :P: = 7 (GB)
:6: :6: :K: = 3 (GB)
:H+K: = -1
:9: :P: = -3


Momiji:
No data - Pending


Pai:
No data - Pending


Rachel:
No data - Pending


Rig: (Incomplete - pending 5U)
:K: = +2 into Bending
:K::K: = +2 into Bending
:6::P::2::K::K: = +1 into Bending
:1::K::K: = +1 into Bending
:236::K: = +10 into Bending
BND :K::K: = +2
BND :2::K::K: = +2
BND :H+P: = +10


Sarah:
:1: :P+K: (charged PB) = 17 GB
:6: :P+K: :3: :P: :K: = 9 GB
Stepping Forward :H+K: = 6 GB => BS
Flamingo :K: = 4
:4: :P+K: = 4
:4: :K: = 4
:8: :K: = 3
:3: :P: :K: = 3
:P+K: = 2
:P: = 1
Flamingo :K: :K: = 0
:4: :4: :P: = -1 => BT
:P: (BT) = -1
Flamingo :P: = -1
:1: :H+K: :K: = -2
:6: :P+K: = -2
:6: :H+K:= -2
:9: :H+K: = -2
:7: :K: (BS) = -2
Stepping Forward :P: = -2
Stepping Forward :P+K: = -3
:H+K: (BT) = -3
SS :P: = -3
:K: :P: = -3
:K: (BT) = -3
:3: :P: = -3
:4: :P: = -3
:9: :H+K: :P: = -3
:7: :P: = -4
:4: :4: :K: = -4
:9: :H+K: :K: :K: = -4
:6: :6: :H+K: = -4
Stepping :P: = -4

Note: There are few moves that goes past -5-6 on block.
High frame rate moves would then almost always be unsafe even after block.


Tina: (Incomplete - pending 5U)
:4::6::P: = +1 to +5 depending on opponent and distance.
:8::K: = +6
:7::K: = +9
:7::P: = +2
:7::P::P::P: = +0
:4::4::H+P: = +11
:6::P::P::2::K: // :2::H+K: = +1
:4::P+K: = between +0 and +3
:P+K: (BT) = +3
:6::6::P+K: = between +1 and +6
:6::4::H+P::4::H+P: = +9


Zack:
No data - Pending


Will be continued.
 
Crext

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Taken for editing

Making a list to compare follow up moves (the fastest/most likely).
One do not pay any mind to high/low crushes, range and so on in this case as it is situational.

The data are frames to hit.


Akira: (incomplete)
:P: = 10
:6_: :P: = 10
:6: :6: :P: = 12
:2: :P: = 12
:4: :6: :P: = 14
:6: :6: :6: :P: = 14
:4: :P: = 15
:8: :P: = 19
:4: :3: :P: = 20



Alpha152:
No data - Pending


Ayane:
:P: = 10
:7: :K: (BT) = 11
:P+K: (BT) = 11
:2: :P: = 12
:K: = 12
:P+K: = 13
:6: :K: = 13
:6: :P: = 13
:6: :6: :K: = 14
:6: :K: (BT) = 15
:3: :K: = 15
:4: :P: = 15
:3: :P: = 15
:1: :P: = 15
:6: :6: :P: = 15
:4: :P: = 16
:2: :3: :6: :K: = 16
:4: :P+K: = 16
:H+K: = 16

Throws
F.png
= 5
:6:
F.png
or :4:
F.png
= 7


Bass:
:P: = 13
:6: :K: = 14
:6: :P: = 15
:4: :P: = 17
:9: :P: = 17
:2: :P: = 17
:4: :P+K: = 17
:3: :P: = 18

Throws
F.png
= 4
:6:
F.png
= 6

Bayman:
No data - Pending


Brad:
No data - Pending


Christie:
No data - Pending
:P: = 9

Ein:
No data - Pending


Eliot:
:7: :P: = 9
:P: = 10
:K: = 13
:9: :K: = 13
:3: :K: = 14
:6: :P: = 14
:2: :1: :4: :P: = 14
:4: :P: = 15
:3: :P: = 15
:9: :P: = 15
:8: :P: = 15
:H+K: = 16

Throws
F.png
= 5
:6:
F.png
= 7


Gen Fu:
No data - Pending

Hayabusa:
No data - Pending


Hayate:
No data - Pending


Helena:
No data - Pending


Hitomi:
:P: = 10
:7: :P: = 11
:4: :6: :P: = 12
:6: :6: :P: = 12
:6: :K: = 13
:P: (BT) = 13
:6: :P: = 13
:8: :P: = 13
:9: :H+K: = 13
:2: :P: = 14
:4: :H+K: = 14
:P+K: = 14
:3: :K: = 14
:4: :K: = 15
:7: :K: = 15
:P: :P: :K: = 15
:1: :P: = 15
:2: :3: :6: :P: = 15
:6: :6: :K: = 16
:3: :P: = 16
:1: :K: = 17
:9: :K: = 17
:2: :3: :6: :K: = 18
:2: :K: = 18
:6: :H+K: = 18

Throw
F.png
= 5
:4:
F.png
or :6:
F.png
= 7




Jacky:
No data - Pending

Jann Lee:
No data - Pending

Kasumi:
:P: = 9
(BT) :P: = 11
:6: :P: = 11
:K: = 11
:8: :K: = 12
:7: :K: = 12
:4: :P: = 12
:2: :P: = 12
(BT) :2: :P: = 13
:3: :P: = 13
(BT) :K: = 14
:2: :K: = 14
:3: :K: = 14
:6: :K: = 15
:1: :P: = 16
:6: :6: :K: = 16
:H+K: = 17
:9: :K: = 18
:3: :H+K: = 18


Kokoro:
:P: = 10
:7: :P: = 12
:6: :P: = 12
:P: (BT) = 14
:6: :6: :P: = 14
:6: :K: = 15
:3: :K: = 15
:2: :K: = 15
:4: :P: = 15
:9: :P: = 15
:3: :P: = 15
:8: :P: = 16
:2: :H+K: = 16
:H+K: = 17
:4: :6: :P: = 17
:2: :K: (BT) = 17
:P+K: (BT) = 17
:1: :K: = 18
:7: :K: = 18
:3: :3: :P: = 18
:2: :1: :4: :P: = 18
:6: :P+K: = 18

Throws
F.png
= 5
:6:
F.png
= 7

Lei Fang:
No data - Pending


Leon:
No data - Pending


Lisa:
No data - Pending


Mila:
:P: = 10
:8: :P: = 12
:K: = 13
:6: :P: = 12
:6: :K: = 14
:4: :K: = 14
:3: :K: = 15
:2: :K: = 15
:3: :P: = 15
:4: :H+K: = 15
:9: :K: = 16
:4: :P: = 16
:1: :P+K: = 17
:8: :K: = 18
:7: :P: = 18
:6: :6: :K: = 18
:P+K: = 18
:H+K: = 18

Throws:
F.png
= 5
:6:
F.png
= 7

Momiji:
No data - Pending


Pai:
No data - Pending


Rachel:
No data - Pending


Rig:
No data - Pending


Sarah:
:4: :4: :P: = 9 => BT
:P: = 10
:P: (BT) = 10
Flamingo :P: = 10
Flamingo :K: = 11
:K: (BT) = 11
:3: :P: = 12
Stepping Forward :P: = 12
:4: :4: :K: = 13
:6: :P+K: = 14
:H+K: (BT) = 14
Stepping :P: = 15
:P+K: = 12 + 4
:7: :K: (BT) = 16
Stepping Forward :P+K: = 16
:4: :P: = 16
:4: :K: = 17
:8: :K: = 17
:6: :6: :H+K: = 18
:6: :H+K: = 19

F.png
= 5
:4:
F.png
= 7
:6:
F.png
= 7

Tina:
No data - Pending


Zack:
No data - Pending
 
Crext

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Will try and complete this over the days to come.

If anyone feel like helping me out, feel free to post! :cool:
 
Crext

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'll return to finish this in 5U, as there may be some changes it'll be nice not to have to do it twice. :hitomi:
 
Tones

Tones

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Basic options are...
Parry, attack, sidestep/crush, throw, guard

From the defender perspective...
Throw, parry, counter, sidestep/crush, attack, slow escape, guard

On hit the world is your oyster, but on guard the game is slowed down to definite scenarios. Some scenarios are even more definite/limited in that sticking to only 1 or 2 options are best. Example are Bass' ground throw (defender has 3 viable options), and guard breaks from blocked power blows (defender has 1/2 viable options).

All above depends on the behaviour of your opponent and the scenario at hand, the more things you can combine higher the chance of success (example, a crush and attack is a low jab has double the chance of having the situation play in your favour than just a jab).

2 in ones options from defender's perspectives...
2 level parries, low counter, fuzzy guard, crushing attack.

.....

I like what you're doing though. Completed this thread will be one of my go-to's when I'm looking to learn about a character.
 
Crext

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
True, Tones. Can't give the ultimate guide for everything though, but this is a contribution towards that end at least.

I mean, how often are you not in a scenario of strike vs strike after block? Almost every fight I'd say.
 
Crext

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Thanks guys, will be adding this.

And you are right MasterHavik, it kinda can be viewed as a list like that. It is kinda After a blocking period, what beats what (though not taking into consideration of crushes and so on).
 
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