I'm not worried about that so much as I am a competant Mila/Christie tag team in the same stage, but I digress.
Someone filled me in on the "lab" deal @petopia. So that's what you guys call the free training mode.
Team NINJA Debuts Get Ready Fight Official Tutorial Series
- Thread starter Kasumi
- Start date
Someone filled me in on the "lab" deal @petopia. So that's what you guys call the free training mode.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
when I'm Mila and the opponent picks Lab
To those who don't understand, Lab effectively doubles Mila's damage output. (Every hit from a mount tackle gets the explosive environment bonus. So bonus from knocking them to the ground, bonus from the first hit, bonus from the second hit, and bonus from the third hit. And possible a fourth bonus hit if you did it with enemy to the wall, or whatever else you did to lead to the mount.)
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
Fuck the lab stage - DZ in LR will take care of damage output for you!
Seriously, why didn't TN think of such a series like this to begin with? I keep thinking as per usual: "We fucked up! We're sorry!" IOW, every time they "just now, get it right?" I ask myself, "why now?"
Seriously, why didn't TN think of such a series like this to begin with? I keep thinking as per usual: "We fucked up! We're sorry!" IOW, every time they "just now, get it right?" I ask myself, "why now?"
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
^ Dat damage tho! So, can anyone make an over/under for combokill stages - Home/DZ?
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
These videos are a great initiative, but I don't like the use of black and white and the mise-en-scène. The atmosphere is a bit worrisome and unwelcoming for the new players.
I'm still curious to see the other videos and the evolution, but I prefer the way Cow's videos are presented.
I'm still curious to see the other videos and the evolution, but I prefer the way Cow's videos are presented.
Its for learning, not your entertainment.
You preach to the choir. But better late then not at all, or worse, after all was said & done (the bomb squad that arrives after the Ka-boom is pretty much worthless). This is a good start; my gripe with it as it stands is the "Escape the delay" thing he kept saying, I can see that getting very annoying very quickly. Another thing that may kill the idea is if they do something like 1 vid a month, which might kill the supposed intent (to get newBs into the series before DoA5:LR launches).
I await more vids.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
What is there to learn though? As soon as the "I'm gonna fuck up you up now," shit starts coming ... apparently that is the learning process. It'll happen. Most will skip to that portion because it's "entertaining." or the player "looks good."
To which I somewhat agree if the fuckups in the video are staged or not; however, some folks learn when they see not their own mistakes, but the opposition's mistakes, too. (Everyone seemed to cringe at the attempts of Honoka's CC)
The avenues to learn the game instead of just "labbing!" This is when, how, where and why players of any skill level lose due to the conditioning that happens when you lab. However, don't let a human discuss conditioning or they'll act like they don't know what the fuck it is! (or attach some label).
Again, TN shouldn't have fucked up with the tutorial in the first place! It's sad how the fans find all this stuff, all the videos, teaching tech, etc. now, you're thinking about new players? Vanilla and Ultimate - crowds were coming in for those games - excuse me, updates/patches, too.
The vets know this game like the back of their hands, but don't know how to "talk" to new players (not everybody). Fundamentals? What are they?
You gotta crawl before walking, fall before standing, stand before walking and walk before running; however, if you trip, you suddenly recall what it was like to fall. Yet, if you never forgot how it felt to fall to begin with.
As Hayashi said "it's Fighting Entertainment!"
Devils abdicate time here, while I do think this vid is a great step for newBs & casuals like myself, there has to be an entertainment part to it, which so far they've done well; here's why: Have you ever heard the joke of the guy who had to watch porn for homework (the other version being he had to read an erotic novel for it)? The punch~line being that he hated doing it because it felt as bland as reading a textbook for that same amount of time, never mind that at any other point he'd have been as happy as a pig in shit to do so.
The pseudo comedy "Escape the delay" shtick works with me for the moment, hopefully they won't overuse it though. If they keep to the rest of the series in a timely fashion & along these lines it'll be enjoyable & get new blood into the series.
That's what i've been wondering: "Where's the next vid?" I'm thinking it'll come after the kaboom.
If someone shows them the vid when they get online and whine because they loose, it'll turn out differently. The worst thing about all of this is that it's going to be on youtube, not directly connected to the game. The people who need it the most are not going to have a subscription on youtube for that channel.
If you see all the ways of screwing up and how they look different, you can use that to knwo what you're doing wrong when you're doing it wrong. The fact that i didn't have it is why my KBD didn't work: i had no idea what i was doing wrong, because i only know what it looks like, and why my character looks like, not what specific errors look like, so i couldn't self-correct.
Lab is for practice, really. There's a certain amount of things that you must know to lab effectively, and the most important stuff is the stuff that's not directly related to the lab. When you're in the lab, you have all the information infront of you, after which it's incredibly simple to ask specific questions about what you don't understand. However, people can lab, and lab, and lab, and still loose. This means that something is missing that does not come intuitively from the lab. This, thusly, means that the lab will never teach you those things, either. The people that continually tell us to go dojo are telling us how to fix the only problems that they see as problems. Go to any "learn japanese" site, and they'll go tell you to study 漢字 and/or ひらがな with the same dull, brain-dead enthusiasm as people here say "go lab." Maybe, just maybe, vocabulary isn't the only issue.
Yeah, if you're going to mess with things, make sure the learning materials match before release. The fact that the changes are so drastic and undocumented publicly is surely what caused the "go to the lab" mentality (or at least made it worse). Alot of people suddenly suck because of balance changes, so they ask for help, and the only viable answer is "figure it out yourself." However, not everyone is on the level where that's viable. I've switched mains, simply because certain characters end up better documented than others.
There is the issue. That is the million dollar answer, right there. They want to get people to lab level ASAP, because then people can teach themselves from there. Problem is, lab level is too high. Tutorial makers and helpers hear that, so they go to the bottom, and mention what each button does, give a simple explanation on frame data, and cover the button presses for the execution of certain tactics, then tell people to go do frame data. There's quite a few steps between, and players who are in that between stage are the ones who are ending up dumbfounded and constantly asking for help (or just drop the controller and pick it up for another game). What the community could do best (although it's not very practical) is, instead of saying "you need to do X more," they need to ask "Why aren't you doing X?" and then pursue the answer, then they'll know what their next tutorial video should be about after they get 2 or 3 people who give a particular answer. First, they'll have to figure out why that person has that problem and they don't, though (much easier said than done).
However, you'll still get people who go on robo-answer and say "this game isn't that hard. I have no idea what you guys are going on about." Maybe those things came naturally to you, congratulations.
DoA and this video are not the same thing.
Doesn't work that way in America, but i get your point. Personally i'd rather have an in game tutorial (using only one specific character or all of them as options [which is alot easier than it sounds, actually]) where elements are taught with almost all the buttons disabled (or you get punished for hitting the wrong button), and you have to effectively learn how to use only the things on the lesson. For example, learning pokes could easily be made into a minigame of sorts It's entertaining, and you're effectively learning how to poke, how getting poked hurts, etc. Just like in a real martial arts school (and they could use that concept and make a Mr. Miyagi ripoff to add to the fun of it). The tutorials as they stand now are "hold about 3 punches," while the CPU kicks and throws 80% of the time. Sure, that's more realistic for a fight, but we gotta learn how to use it well to begin with before we can practice it in a realistic scenario. Also, having "slow mo" sparring (like in real schools) and also slowmo in training mode would be infinitely useful.
Mottos allow people to keep focus on what's important in their task. If i would ever help someone do a tutorial series, for example, i would tell them that their motto is "don't let them put the controller down." Anything that allows or coerces them to put the controller down is something that ends the learning experience.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
@Kohlrak:
I had an idea (but I doubt it will ever happen)
I get alot of shit for how I play Alpha - everyone knows that MU, right? (Don't let her breathe! Few don't like this rushdown style we Americans have so deeply embraced, so much so the entire roster has to do it!)
I was in a lobby with a few friends to train, have some fun. I lost more than I won, but everyone saw how I was improving. This is something I rarely here because I'm expected to be Xblades level. I do shit with her and it's not noticed. (Of course, trolls will make this beyond obvious)
I'm pretty much losing it with her nerf thread (then again, everyone is regarding this nerf patch) tl;dr
Anyway, my point is: I try to use her as a teaching tool as opposed to most believing I oughta just fuck your shit up (Helena is the same damn way).
People can actually learn a shitload more from just one character (than the entire roster (a la the current tutorial). In Alpha's case, not just how you can fuck her up because she's a featherweight - though I'm sure folks are learning how to drop combos, too because they aren't learning how to shorten them. (Let her drop. I find this useful ironically with Helena and her BKO throw on everybody whether or not I could chain a juggle. Half the time, I see folks still finish a combo when she's long past napping! wtf?)
Which leads to CC, but before I get there ...
Mixing up, Conditioning (No-Mixup, Mixup), String delay, Hold/Throw baiting and punishment! Standing the fuck STILL! Talk about the head games! How badly can she fuck you up by looking at you wrong!
All of this shit she can do, but she can't hold or will get mashed if she does. (Funny, how her normal hold is Kasumi's parry, but she's rarely mashed if ever) Imagine if Helena had this (everyone is turning over with the -8) Everyone takes his/her character's gift of holding vs. Alpha's lack of holding for granted (Fuck the parry with KB). If not, they wouldn't complain when (Star)BURST is on the menu. Of course, that can be beaten, too as can RUSH.
Now, character specifics, well, Alpha only applies to Alpha; however, generalities, basic, immediate stuff, Alpha can teach you. How to develop good habits, how to curb (not necessarily outright kick) bad one.
I'm trying to teach somebody not to hold so damn much (see reason above) and I rarely use that throw. Tick-throwing! This pisses off to no end! Why are you throwing a bunch of punches cause you know I'm not stupid enough to let my guard down, right? The maligned "punch, punch grab" (You can imagine the hate I get for something so fucking simple and BURST is hardly that grab)
That would possibly sell the tutorial: Go through the entire tutorial with one character. If these universals exist, why not? Who can't do what I just mentioned that Alpha can (her physical attacks/throws don't count).
CC: I've only done half her exercises, but I already know half that shit I won't use. They had the right idea with fragmenting it:
4P
H+KK
3(K,H+K)
PKKKK7K
Instead of the full last segment, I went KK7K. The purposefully neglected PKK? Not worried. I can get whatever damage I missed by doing something else. (BURST on HiC? Do you think I miss that PKK piece?)
But here's a kicker:
You said lab was high? "No, bitch, I'm high!" People use the "trade offs," (featherweight/defenseless) as rationale to justify everything that's done to her. Yet, let me go Rachael and all of that goes out the window or Helena ftm
It gets worse. If say Helena fucks me up and I have an Alpha mirror next, shit fucking changes drastically. (@Nuke-Nin using you as an example)
I have an idea for a title: DOA for Dummies! I thought that was the idea in toning down its learning curve, but no they had to up the ante due to who else came from where.
I would do MK-Injustice. MK wishes it knew what frame data was - even in 9, folks had to actually figure out the +/- stuff. It's there in Injustice; however, I heard less about frame data from Injustice comms WAY less than DOA comms as if it's less significant there and more significant here. It's uncertain if frame data will be present in MKX, but given Injustice, it may be; however. it won't be the end all, be all for me.
I don't think my idea will come to fruition, but if it does or doesn't, I think it's a better way to go or to have gone about things.
I had an idea (but I doubt it will ever happen)
I get alot of shit for how I play Alpha - everyone knows that MU, right? (Don't let her breathe! Few don't like this rushdown style we Americans have so deeply embraced, so much so the entire roster has to do it!)
I was in a lobby with a few friends to train, have some fun. I lost more than I won, but everyone saw how I was improving. This is something I rarely here because I'm expected to be Xblades level. I do shit with her and it's not noticed. (Of course, trolls will make this beyond obvious)
I'm pretty much losing it with her nerf thread (then again, everyone is regarding this nerf patch) tl;dr
Anyway, my point is: I try to use her as a teaching tool as opposed to most believing I oughta just fuck your shit up (Helena is the same damn way).
People can actually learn a shitload more from just one character (than the entire roster (a la the current tutorial). In Alpha's case, not just how you can fuck her up because she's a featherweight - though I'm sure folks are learning how to drop combos, too because they aren't learning how to shorten them. (Let her drop. I find this useful ironically with Helena and her BKO throw on everybody whether or not I could chain a juggle. Half the time, I see folks still finish a combo when she's long past napping! wtf?)
Which leads to CC, but before I get there ...
Mixing up, Conditioning (No-Mixup, Mixup), String delay, Hold/Throw baiting and punishment! Standing the fuck STILL! Talk about the head games! How badly can she fuck you up by looking at you wrong!
All of this shit she can do, but she can't hold or will get mashed if she does. (Funny, how her normal hold is Kasumi's parry, but she's rarely mashed if ever) Imagine if Helena had this (everyone is turning over with the -8) Everyone takes his/her character's gift of holding vs. Alpha's lack of holding for granted (Fuck the parry with KB). If not, they wouldn't complain when (Star)BURST is on the menu. Of course, that can be beaten, too as can RUSH.
Now, character specifics, well, Alpha only applies to Alpha; however, generalities, basic, immediate stuff, Alpha can teach you. How to develop good habits, how to curb (not necessarily outright kick) bad one.
I'm trying to teach somebody not to hold so damn much (see reason above) and I rarely use that throw. Tick-throwing! This pisses off to no end! Why are you throwing a bunch of punches cause you know I'm not stupid enough to let my guard down, right? The maligned "punch, punch grab" (You can imagine the hate I get for something so fucking simple and BURST is hardly that grab)
That would possibly sell the tutorial: Go through the entire tutorial with one character. If these universals exist, why not? Who can't do what I just mentioned that Alpha can (her physical attacks/throws don't count).
CC: I've only done half her exercises, but I already know half that shit I won't use. They had the right idea with fragmenting it:
4P
H+KK
3(K,H+K)
PKKKK7K
Instead of the full last segment, I went KK7K. The purposefully neglected PKK? Not worried. I can get whatever damage I missed by doing something else. (BURST on HiC? Do you think I miss that PKK piece?)
But here's a kicker:
You said lab was high? "No, bitch, I'm high!" People use the "trade offs," (featherweight/defenseless) as rationale to justify everything that's done to her. Yet, let me go Rachael and all of that goes out the window or Helena ftm
It gets worse. If say Helena fucks me up and I have an Alpha mirror next, shit fucking changes drastically. (@Nuke-Nin using you as an example)
I have an idea for a title: DOA for Dummies! I thought that was the idea in toning down its learning curve, but no they had to up the ante due to who else came from where.
I would do MK-Injustice. MK wishes it knew what frame data was - even in 9, folks had to actually figure out the +/- stuff. It's there in Injustice; however, I heard less about frame data from Injustice comms WAY less than DOA comms as if it's less significant there and more significant here. It's uncertain if frame data will be present in MKX, but given Injustice, it may be; however. it won't be the end all, be all for me.
I don't think my idea will come to fruition, but if it does or doesn't, I think it's a better way to go or to have gone about things.
No more than mine will, so you my as well spill it to bash ideas off each others' heads incase we come up with something viable on our side.
Let's face it, alpha's about as lovable as a cactus.
My guess is that certain feedback helped.
Looks like they're boosting characters that need boosted, like Marie. However, it's called the nerf patch, because people play the characters that are more well off, so everyones' mains are getting nerfed.
Ain't that the truth?
Yeah, switching characters makes practicing the tech you've learned next to impossible, because you really can't reinforce it. IMO, it makes more sense to teach these "easier ideas" available through other characters AFTER the "more advanced" things that are still doable with the first character. The problem is, the hold is the signature defense option, but requires knowledge of your opponent's character to pull off (especially advanced holds).
And that's what's so sad about the hate for alpha, but it goes back to the fact that there is no defensive game. It's not taught.
Indeed.
That's what's useful about it, but they're not apparent right off the bat.
Then let's hear it.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
That was it! Pick a character and see how many universals apply to that character - again, not the character specific stuff. This is what's confusing to me.
Hitomi - Basic Moves and attacks
Tina - Holding
Koko/Christie/Eliot - Sidestepping
Bass (Tina) Strike-Throw combos.
Now, they probably did it by the character(s) best suited for each lesson, but how did they determine it? (ie: Bayman is known for Holding shit, too; shit, as soon as I see Bayman, I know what I'm gonna attempt to do)
The finer points - Spacing/Footsies, Whiff Punishing, Conditioning, etc. aren't discussed in the tutorial, but that's fine as it's all in the frame datawindown - chose the correct slide.
The six characters listed, the other 30+ can't do this (including Alpha?)
To your point about switching characters ...
I don't think it's a completely clean slate because I asked friends how to pick a secondary (cause everybody got sick of me using Alpha), but given his advice, I picked Helena! Guess what the advice was?
What is it about Alpha do you like? What do you feel you can enhance? What would you like to add? Like to guess what Helena has that Alpha has adopted and what Helena is trying to adopt from Alpha? Somehow she's (Helena) more difficult to deal with and I'm nowhere near "Stupidville" with either character. IOW, I didn't really switch, did I?
That whole deal with playing everyone is just a pro-ism! I wanna get better. Getting better and reaching Pro status is not inclusive! That's totally something else, but again, do you like my idea? I get trying to learn every character, but we already have too many avenues to do that with:
Arcade
Versus
Survival
Online (Rank/Lobbies/Dojo)
I'm a dedicated Alpha player - I have a shit tons more losses than wins, idk everything about this character though I'm not ready to find every damn gem either. I don't know frame data, but I was interrupting like crazy. I wasn't bustin crazy combos/throws while not in your face but I got in some damn heads and will get in yours! Don't tempt me!
This is how you fuck people up without fucking them up! Everyone knows what the middle fingers mean without uttering the words! Yet, who said Alpha's mad when she gives you that finger? (And it fucking hurts, but the idea of that finger ought to hurt much, much worse than the finger itself!)
Perfect example:
This Christie I played twice! First match - he won convincingly (3-0 - great, great, greatest) Da shit Alpha did next - "Sit down child!!" I'll stop there! XD
Hitomi - Basic Moves and attacks
Tina - Holding
Koko/Christie/Eliot - Sidestepping
Bass (Tina) Strike-Throw combos.
Now, they probably did it by the character(s) best suited for each lesson, but how did they determine it? (ie: Bayman is known for Holding shit, too; shit, as soon as I see Bayman, I know what I'm gonna attempt to do)
The finer points - Spacing/Footsies, Whiff Punishing, Conditioning, etc. aren't discussed in the tutorial, but that's fine as it's all in the frame datawindown - chose the correct slide.
The six characters listed, the other 30+ can't do this (including Alpha?)
To your point about switching characters ...
I don't think it's a completely clean slate because I asked friends how to pick a secondary (cause everybody got sick of me using Alpha), but given his advice, I picked Helena! Guess what the advice was?
What is it about Alpha do you like? What do you feel you can enhance? What would you like to add? Like to guess what Helena has that Alpha has adopted and what Helena is trying to adopt from Alpha? Somehow she's (Helena) more difficult to deal with and I'm nowhere near "Stupidville" with either character. IOW, I didn't really switch, did I?
That whole deal with playing everyone is just a pro-ism! I wanna get better. Getting better and reaching Pro status is not inclusive! That's totally something else, but again, do you like my idea? I get trying to learn every character, but we already have too many avenues to do that with:
Arcade
Versus
Survival
Online (Rank/Lobbies/Dojo)
I'm a dedicated Alpha player - I have a shit tons more losses than wins, idk everything about this character though I'm not ready to find every damn gem either. I don't know frame data, but I was interrupting like crazy. I wasn't bustin crazy combos/throws while not in your face but I got in some damn heads and will get in yours! Don't tempt me!
This is how you fuck people up without fucking them up! Everyone knows what the middle fingers mean without uttering the words! Yet, who said Alpha's mad when she gives you that finger? (And it fucking hurts, but the idea of that finger ought to hurt much, much worse than the finger itself!)
Perfect example:
This Christie I played twice! First match - he won convincingly (3-0 - great, great, greatest) Da shit Alpha did next - "Sit down child!!" I'll stop there! XD
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We should be documenting them, too, IMO.
Basically, they picked people where Hitomi didn't work. It looked like they gave up in the end.
Right.
Ah, but you have to be good enough with a particular charcter before the switch to truly realize that. You're supposed to focus on the lesson at hand, but you end up focusing on the character change.
It worked well for me in dimensions, and it does seem to have an effect on my understanding of all characters, but finding the universals end up being a more complicated task without knowing exactly what i should be looking for. I did realize that 5P, 6P, and 2P are your main close pokes, with K, 4K, and 2K being your main range pokes. 1P+K or 4P+K is usually your guardbreak which turns into powerblow, but that's not always true anymore. IMO, these are the brain dead patterns that should've been explained in the tutorials. I mean, in vanilla, they went to explain that 46P is usually slow, but painful. Why was that the only rule we got?
It would seem that most of the moves have relative frame data. 5P, 6P, and 2P definitely seem to be equally different for each character.
And watch, people start looking for that kind of conditioning. If they stop fearing you, they'll start watching you and be ready.
PuertoRicanStyL
Active Member
Cool that they're doing these. Teaching someone that's new to the genre of fighting games can be like walkin on egg shells (so to speak) since it's really easy to overload them with info. A person only needs to know so much at a time to work with till they're very comfortable with it, as in second nature to them.
A beginner in fighting games doesn't need a bunch of technical stuff thrown at em. In my opinion.. It's like telling/teaching someone how to board slide a handrail on a skateboard, when they can barely balance themselves riding on the ground.
A beginner in fighting games doesn't need a bunch of technical stuff thrown at em. In my opinion.. It's like telling/teaching someone how to board slide a handrail on a skateboard, when they can barely balance themselves riding on the ground.
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And that's the problem with all the other tutorials out there.